StampChat Archives

Archive:  July 16 - 31, 2003

• Last updated:  20 March 2004

July 31, 2003 David Benson

NOIP, Here is a reply to my note asking if one of Adtinvest's buyers knew what the item was,

Looking at the perforation of this stamps, it is certain that it is a a Fournier Forgery: look also at the gum: brown is original, white and clean is forgery,

I have informed him of the correct details,

David Benson

July 31, 2003 Richard Ballhagen (spain_1850)

Board size
Dave - Much better, I like it! Much more compact at the top.

July 31, 2003 Roger Heath

Roger

July 31, 2003 20:10 Dave ("philatarium")

Jim L., David M., & Dave P.: thanks very much for the positive feedback. (Since this update thing is taking a bit longer than I intended, the pats on the back really come in handy right about now!)

July 31, 2003 20:08 Dave ("philatarium")

updated link page
The links page is updated, reorganized, restructured -- you name it.

It is, of course, by no means comprehensive, and has a long way to go before that can ever happen (and it'll be a slow slog). But you can get a feel for where I want to go with it, where it can be an informative guide to other helpful sites.

As I wrote up some of the listings, I stumbled a stamp identification site (US & a little bit of Mexico), and it occured to be that this could be one of the more powerful features, to point to all the various little reference sites (especially identifiers) out there.

Please let me know of others you know, both US and non. And if a site is not in English, but particularly helpful, then let's include it as well.

Thanks.

July 31, 2003 7:52 P.M. Dave Price <divprice@hotmail.com>

Thanks To All
Just wanted to thank Dave and Richard for the info on their fine sites. As an expert on NO philatelic topic, just your run of the mill collector, I wanted to let y'all know how invaluable the info posted has been for my philatelic education.

Dave Price

July 31, 2003 David Moser <stamphick@dospalos.org>

David

July 31, 2003 Jim Lawler <jlawler@comteck.com>

Jim L.

July 31, 2003 17:49 Dave ("philatarium")

Hacked accounts
Bob H: Thanks. I'm putting them into the listing right now that I'll publish later on tonight. Many thanks!

July 31, 2003 Bob Hohertz

Hacked accounts
By the way, there is a Live Help link on the second link in that post - and the first link gets you to the same place as part of the short lecture...

July 31, 2003 Bob Hohertz

If that link does not work, go HERE.

July 31, 2003 17:12 Dave ("philatarium")

Jim: Thanks. Please do keep an eye on things. Much appreciated. Sorry about the field-swap.

Paul: Based on your input, I did a little more 'net research, and am now trying this off-white code. (F8F8F8, instead of pure white, FFFFFF) It's still a little bluish, but I'll see if I can live with it.

Roger: Congratulations on the recovery of your id. (I was about to post condolences when you announced its recovery.) Which link would you recommend be used to contact eBay? I'll put in the links, in case it happens to someone else, God forbid.

July 31, 2003 Jim Griffith <griffith@dweeb.org> http://album.dweeb.org
 

Jim

July 31, 2003 sveiki!

Dave Don't remember the exact HEX code for off white, but the word code is "snow". {:o)

Roger So much for trying to solve the problem in a semi-way. {;o) Looks like eBay isn't the bunch of flap-ears anyway. Too long time since I've checked eBay out properly...

July 31, 2003 15:59 Dave ("philatarium")

Netscape & Opera
I just checked this site with Netscape 7.02 and Opera 7.10. Netscape ignores a significant number of the font commands, and I'm not exactly sure how to fix that. Meanwhile, Opera reads the font commands as intended, but plays around with the table commands a bit.

I do not have the capability to view this on a Mac, so I'm afraid this is all just from a Windows-XP perspective.

July 31, 2003 15:50 Dave ("philatarium")

Oops: correct time for last post should have been 10 minutes later: 15:49.

July 31, 2003 15:39 Dave ("philatarium")

OK to post again
OK -- that was all I intended to change for today.

I am always trying to balance the fact that people have their monitors at different resolutions, and what's small to one person is large to someone else. We also have people at all age levels, and at all levels of computer-savvy. Sometimes that's why there's redundancy, or why, to some, that things seem too obvious.

Also, different browsers treat line breaks, table commands, and horizontal rules differently, and this may affect your overall viewing experience on here as well.

Hopefully this strikes some kind of balance for most everyone.

Also, the links page (now with a link at the top) is a bit re-formatted from last night. I have not yet added the suggestions that were submitted overnight, but hope to soon.

background color: I did remove the light blue background color that was here. I have personally never liked it (feels like the walls of an old hospital room), but would be happy to find some kind of very muted tone with which to replace it. Is there a hex code for "off-white" or something similar that doesn't look gray or blue?

Thanks!

July 31, 2003 15:22 Dave ("philatarium")

hold off on posting for a little while
OK, I've tried to incorporate your comments about the site. Everyone didn't get everything, but hopefully it'll be a little better.

Because I have to go in and change the code that generates this page, it would probably be best to refrain from posting until I give the "all clear" signal. (Somewhere between 5 - 15 minutes.)

Thanks!

July 31, 2003 David Benson

Alison, wonder if they have any idea of how many queries they will get. They might have to put on extra staff, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. Once they take it on, they can't get rid of it, it's a permanent marriage.

David Benson

July 31, 2003 Paolo Bagaglia

France 1789 Pre-Adhesives cover
Watermark
(of Central American style, IMO)

initial part of text (Warning, 371kb image!)

All the best, Paolo
(vanitatem)

 

July 31, 2003 Jim Griffith <griffith@dweeb.org> http://album.dweeb.org
 

Jim

July 31, 2003 Alison Ruttenberg

APS Affiliation and Safe Harbor
Roger: I got a follow up phone call from a member of Safe Harbor. He said something different than Dan Neary. He said that ebay will continue not to consider any complaint submitted by an ebay member via the webform regarding the whether a stamp is genuine or misrepresented as to value, condition or authenticity. Instead, the APS Committee will patrol the ebay stamp listings and make their own independent determinations then submit a complaint like a VeRO member submits a complaint. Then, ebay will end the auction upon APS' complaint, and the Seller can then appeal the decision.

July 31, 2003 ROGER HEATH

Ebay - APS affiliation
Now the crisis has passed I have news to report.

I emailed Janet Klug, Vice President of APS, expressing general concerns about the process. "The negotiations and decisions on how best to accomplish all of this are still going on."

I suggest you email a member of the APS Board, if you want to express opinions concerning this affiliation.
http://www.stamps.org/TheAps/abt_boardofdirectors.htm

Roger

July 31, 2003 Nemo

Which is the point I wanted respectfully to make to George, about the scale of these operations, and the money involved, as compared to, say, Stolow's scams.

July 31, 2003 Nemo

Illegals
Jim I made a mistake. There are 500 to a pack, if you study the labels carefully. So at $20 per sheetlet (which is optimistic, admittedly) that flat contains at least $1,600,000 worth of stock, retail value. Weight for weight, that compares pretty well with heroin, I'd have thought.

July 31, 2003 Paolo B

Err.: vanatitatem

July 31, 2003 Jim Whitford-Stark

Back of the envelope calculation.

160 packs, at 100 to pack = 16,000
x $20 each = $320,000

July 31, 2003 Roger Heath

Attempted Fraud
Thanks for the help, and multitude of offers.

Everything is now OK. My name is saved I can return to being "malolo".
The LIVE HELP was a worthwhile 1/2 hour wait and the whole problem was solved to my satisfaction in 15 minutes. Could have been about 5 minutes if we were on the phone rather than typing back and forth!!! Any way I guess they have a reason for a written conversation. I guess I'd better change my ME page back.

Roger

July 31, 2003 Nemo

David I don't know for sure, and probably shouldn't say, anyway. But I'd guess - yes.

July 31, 2003 Paolo B.

PS:... nullius, nemini, neminem, nullus! Multas per gentes et multa per aequora vectus, per hercules! Hic venis navigantibus abundantiam exibendo quantitatem crappum magum! :-)

Sorry, couldn't help ;-)
Paolo (Et censeo vanitatis delendam esse).

 

July 31, 2003 David Benson

Captain Nemo, just for interest, does anyone at the UPU know about those pics.

David Benson

July 31, 2003 Nemo

Should be OK now? Apologies ...

July 31, 2003 Nemo

here

July 31, 2003 Nemo

Hmm, hang on, I need to fix that link ...

July 31, 2003 Paolo Bagaglia

A smashing auction ;-)
Jim that is for a postal history collecter, too much for me; adhesives appear to be nothing less than on PIECE!!! -- sure, almost covers just with some real origional tears with a few meticulous scissors cuts! One adhesive (the sought after, and feared, 2000 lire Italia Turrita) appears to be mint never hinged on piece!!! Maybe something for an 'only covors' buyor or sellor ). I know someone that would fit in the task!!! ;-)
I forecast the auction will end at .99 US dollors. I would like to know if sellor accepts an extension on present certificate and wonder if the stamps were truly printed in topography :-) (ROFLOL)

Apart from jokes, in a moment I should be linking what I promised.

Paolo

July 31, 2003 12:58 Dave Frick ("philatarium")

illegals
Nemo: Your page shows up, but the pics do not. Looks like the references for the pics are still on your own machine rather than on a website. (But I'm looking forward to seeing them.)

July 31, 2003 Nemo

Now I look again, there's 500 sheetlets to each pack. I repeat, do your sums ...

July 31, 2003 Nemo

Now, I don't think that the person who passed me these photos had much right to them, so I won't go into details. And I'd appreciate it if no one copied them!! Anyway, these are shots of the inside of a major illegals dealer's den, somewhere in mainland Europe - I'll say no more, but the name is well known. I won't say who took the pictures or why. Basically, this is the guy's flat, loaded to the gunnels with bubble-wrapped stacks of illegals in sheetlets. The last shot shows some stacks of 100 Mozambique - notice the labels. How many sheetlets do you think can be seen here in total? Tens of thousands? Retail, these can sell for $20 each, or $40 for the imperfs, if they are new and attractive. Though once the novelty has worn off, they can go for $3 or £5. Do the sums - that's BIG money. And this is just his stock at a moment in time. The turnover of new items is phenomenal! Food for thought, n'est-ce pas?


 

July 31, 2003 Paolo Bagaglia

Roger -- hope all goes alright. Please, also use the advice of Bob H. below (just in case). Good to have renamed those pictures and uploaded text in its place. No detectable activity recorded until now.
If there is something I could do with my hands please advise.

Your faithful servant, Paolo
 

July 31, 2003 Roger H

Thanks for ID Help
Thank you all for suggestions, especially Paul (I got the emails) and Mark. I'm currently waiting for a Live response to the webform input. I don't think there can be any harm to me other than I lost the opportunity to bid on a couple of items, now I can't find them!

Roger

July 31, 2003 Christo van Zyl

IO, the stamps are on their way!

July 31, 2003 Jim Whitford-Stark

paolo
A new collection area for you Italy Nanumaga - Tuvalu

July 31, 2003 Duncan Doenitz

Tibet forgeries

A search for "Tibet" stamps at eBay doesn't yield much, and there are quite a few forgeries among the sparse listings.

But there's also the mother lode. Seventy nine forged stamps and cancels on cover all in one handy place. A bid has been placed on these, so they may show up in the market.

Probably nobody cares anyway, but its interesting to see that much stuff for quick reference in one place.

Duncan D

"Don't hide drugs in your crotch. It's the first place the dog will look."

July 31, 2003 Paolo Bagaglia

France 1789 Pre-Adhesives cover
Jim W-S and Guillaume v.T.
Thank you for your efforts & kindness. At the moment my computer cannot find the scanner but with a re-start it might wake up.
I took pics at that cover in translucency, with the digital camera. Will link watermark ASAP.
I did read the text of the letter (skipping on some more words, of course) and indeed it seems to be a strictly businees related content. Wonder what the writer was thinking... or maybe the news of the fall of the Bastille still hadn't reached Chauny.
Anyhow, I will link high res. images of the full text (on two pages -- one of which formerly not displayed).


Test
David S. here is the item you previously tried to link.

Greetings, Paolo

July 31, 2003 Richard Ballhagen (spain_1850)

Board size
Dave - I think a seperate link page will be great, which is where, I'm assuming, alot of the links at the top of this page will end up?

I would like to thanlk you for providing this venue, and all the hard work you've put into it, but I'm starting to feel like this particular page is getting to be too large. What I mean by that for example, is that right now i have to hit the scroll bar 5 times to get down to the actual posting section. I don't know if others have noticed this or not. Some things that might help are: Make the logo at the top of the page a bit smaller, maybe even in a landscape format instead of portrait. Using a table, place any remaining links on this page in 2 columns. Just my ever-so-helpful opinion.

July 31, 2003 Victor Horadam <horadam1@airmail.net>

General
Jim W-S: I know that the earlies issues of Nyassa from the late 19th century have CTO issues.

July 31, 2003 Victor Horadam <horadam1@airmail.net>

General
Dave and Jim: That is the one. Nice auction for me, as I collect India. If I bid I would pay by CC, at least this way if it is a scam, I can get a charge retraction. I agree that I have never heard of them, and I posted the same question on Richard's board and they had not heard of that firm. Probably new, or a local company that got a nice consignment and decided to join the "big league", although I don't understand why you guys there locally wouldn't know of it. Thanks for the information though - helps with my decisions.

July 31, 2003 Jim Whitford-Stark

Brian

I have to admit that I buy goofy thematic stuff.
Especially when there is no indication of what the "relief" is for.

If my memory serves me correctly, michel indicated that the first CTO's dated from the 19th century. I'm sure I'll be corrected, but possibly Liberia?

July 31, 2003 Alison Ruttenberg

American Geography
Jim: I heard some survey results on NPR a few years ago about the results of the US educational system. Survey participants were from a cross section of the United States and all were high school graduates. When the majority of them were given an unmarked globe of planet Earth -- just showing the continents, but with no dividing lines or marks showing individual countries, they could not locate the United States. Almost 20% of them thought that the sun revolved around the Earth. When read the communist manifesto and asked what it was from, more than half said it was in the Declaration of Independence.

July 31, 2003 Brian R

Who started this? Was it, the hard currency starved, eastern block in the 60's? Is any CTO really worth anything? If so, the better question should be why.

July 31, 2003 Mark Bardell

Roger - Account theft...
If that link is no good then go to this Ebay page, where they have links to all live help pages ( including account takovers ).

Mark.

http://pages.ebay.com/community/chatter/2003Jul/eBayandYou.html?ssPageName=CMDV:IC0286

July 31, 2003 Mark Bardell

Roger - Account takeover
Hi Roger, if you haven't done so already, then go to Ebay live help and they will get back control of your account. Be prepared to wait up to half an hour for someone to come and help you though. The link is below.

Mark.


http://server.iad.liveperson.net/hc/12657680/?cmd=file&file=visitorWantsToChat&site=12657680

July 31, 2003 0606 Prometheus

Todays Mail July 31 1873
Nothing Fancy Just a neat Little Letter (entire) + Cover explaining why Caiti Brown in Walden NY doesn't feel she should have to pay for someones Funeral expenses as she feels eight dollars was to extravagant .

Image HERE

Even tho she felt too much she offered to pay Half.
and was awaiting a response.

 

July 31, 2003 Jim Whitford-Stark

Ararat vs Spice Girls
1920's Armenia verses modern Spice Girls on stamps have absolutely no comparison. Apart from the obvious that Ararat has a certain local significance to Armenians whereas the Spice Girls have little meaning to most inhabitants of Rwanda or Kyrgrzstan, there was, to say the least, a slight political significance to concocting "stamps" which supported one or other political faction.

The 1920's "illegals" were not produced for the personal wealth of the guy in Harrow or Long Beach Philatelics (who BTW, claim to be a member of APS) but rather, at least in part, to make a political statement.

Many people do not have a list of current members of the UPU or even UN to which to turn to see if the "country" that they are being told issued the stamps is in fact real. Compound this with the fact that the US educational system produces the most geographically illiterate population in the western world, you have the perfect market for scum-bags preying on the uninformed.

It seems most US school kids know where the Marquessas Islands are located because of some dumb TV show but have no idea as to which continent the country of Belize is located.

July 31, 2003 sveiki!

Bob That's comprehensive information. {:o) Now, I can quit worrieing and get back to work. {;o)

July 31, 2003 Bob Hohertz

If that link does not work, go HERE.

July 31, 2003 Jim Lawler <jlawler@comteck.com>

Jim L.

July 31, 2003 sveiki!

Roger CYE!

July 31, 2003 03:58 Jim Watson

Good Morning, Everyone!
Today's dated postal history item is a registered cover from Costa Rica to the Canal Zone in 1911. Today completes the month of July and I've updated the index listings.
 

July 31, 2003 sveiki!

Roger Naturally, you can tell the bank that someone has gotten access to spend money on your eBay account - and PayPal account if you've got one (same ID and pasword). I don't know what works faster to convince your bank of the necessaity to issue a new credit card and block the old. That's your choice.

July 31, 2003 sveiki!

eBay ID hijack
Roger Next step is to report your credit card missing/lost at your bank. It's important that you say that your credit card is missing/lost. You'll get a new credit card with another number.

Then you contact eBay and inform them of the fact that you wont accept any charges on your old credit card and if they do (eBay) they will be accessary to fraud. You do want to change the credit card information on your account, but unfortunately a person using an internet line from France has hijacked your account etc. etc.

If you don't get an answer from the FBI fraud line within very short time (max. 24 hours), you need to go down to the local office to get an agent assigned and to file a complaint/report a crime. You need to get a case number and an agents name to refer to before eBay will take you dead seriuos.

July 31, 2003 Roger

Thanks. I have copied the source of my Me page. Of course, the jpg images are on my ISP.

July 31, 2003 sveiki!

Roger Be prepared that the perpetrator might read this chat - since you've linked to it from the bottom of your About Me page.

July 31, 2003 sveiki!

Roger If you haven't already made a copy of your About Me page - do so now.

July 31, 2003 sveiki!

eBay ID hijack
Roger Only response would be that your About Me page will be deleted. Here is the place to see if "you're" bidding on any items.

July 31, 2003 Roger Heath

Roger

 

July 31, 2003 Duncan Doenitz

Addie

I haven't bought anything from Addy yet, I figure its only a matter of time and he'll release everything on a CD.

Yup, much better than picking up a few random offerings at a time.

Of course with some of the catalogs adding color to their pages, who needs Addy?

Duh!! I've got a scanner too! Why didn't I think of that sooner?? And while I'm running off a few copies, does anybody else need a few hard to find stamps?

Now I can switch from my old topical collection (gay Haitian octogenarian drug addicts on stamps) and pursue the rarities of the world.

-Duncan

"I was in the music business but my monkey died."

July 31, 2003 sveiki!

eBay ID Hijack
Roger You should get in contact with a local FBI agent. eBay won't be much good if you want to act fast (before your account is used to buy/sell - the country is already changed to France).
Give the FBI all information that's available to you - especially the ISP number.

July 31, 2003 Guillaume

Jim G.: O, the horror! Fortunately, I have been spared that kind of well-meant humiliation.

July 31, 2003 01.12 Knud-Erik Andersen

July 31, 2003 Jim Griffith <griffith@dweeb.org> http://album.dweeb.org
 

Jim

July 31, 2003 23:56 Dave ("philatarium")

links
Jim G: Thanks for the input. Actually, I deliberately tried to put some space between things, so that it would feel a little more readable. My natural preference would be to design things much tighter, but I was concerned about it looking like just a wall of text. And because I think there will be some gems in there, I hate to see them buried like a row in a spreadsheet.

I did think about just bookmarking back up to the original listing when it's duplicated on the page. My hesitation in doing that was in thinking about how this would look down the road when there are a lot more entries. Someone may well be more interested in only looking at the country-specific items, and I just didn't want to have a bunch of cross-references all over the place.

As for the length of the page, I suspect that fairly soon I'll end up splitting it up a bit. The country-specific links really beg to be broken out as a separate page (maybe pages down the road), and perhaps in the long run each of those headings merits its own page. I have no sense of how comprehensive this could be.

But I get what you're saying, and I may end up going that way before all is said and done.

I'll be interested in hearing what others think as well.

July 31, 2003 David Benson

Roger, I hope you realise that was for only a block of 4 from the A4 sheet which probably consisted of 4 x 8 reproductions. One block sold, another for the underbidder at $ 77 and some left for next time.

David Benson

July 31, 2003 Roger Heath

Roger
 

July 31, 2003 Jim Griffith <griffith@dweeb.org> http://album.dweeb.org
 

Jim

July 31, 2003 Jim Griffith <griffith@dweeb.org> http://album.dweeb.org
 

Jim

July 31, 2003 23:07 Dave ("philatarium")

links
By the way, you'll probably figure out that, under "recommended by", I am "various". (I'll consider those proposed by acclamation!)

July 30, 2003 22:48 Dave ("philatarium")

recommended links
OK, that took a little more effort than I expected, but I put together the first draft of this link page:

http://www.pacificanalytics.com/stampchat/links.htm


(I'll add the link at the top of the page tomorrow.)

I think that once you look at these, I'm hoping it will inspire you to do some write-ups of other links important to your collecting areas and send them to me.

Although this could be a massive project, and I have no desire to compete with the major philatelic portals, sites that have particular research value because of their clear explanations, outstanding images, etc., are especially welcomed.

Also, suggestions about additional categories, better ways to organize information, etc., are encouraged.

My thanks to Guillaume and Jim G. for their inaugural suggestions.

July 30, 2003 David Benson

Addie got a winner with this one, $ 78 for a block of 4, maybe the under bidders got a block as well,

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=3491&item=2942342500

David Benson

July 30, 2003 21:33 Dave ("philatarium")

Philatelic Center
Jim: Their address is listed as:

3085 Middlefield Rd., Suite 15
Palo Alto, CA 94306
phone: 408/202-1339
email: philateliccenter@aol.com

The mailing consisted of two publications. One is the auction descriptions; the other is full-color photos.

They indicate that this is their 27th mail bid sale (Aug 23, 2003).

I wonder if they've gone by another name in the past?
 

July 30, 2003 9:29 P.M. Bob5381 <bob4blues@chartermi.net>

Switzerland..... MNH
Mark:

You asked if the 1959 Switzerland Europa issue was worth twice Scott CV. There are a lot of 'buy' ads in the philatelic papers. One dealer I get a newsletter from has commented on the upward movement of Europa issues and said there are some well-heeled dealers buying up these stamps. However the dealer (who I respect and believe is very knowledgeable) did not know what was behind all this buying, where the stamps were going or where the whole process was leading.

The 'buy' ads list prices of some Europa issues much above Scott prices. One dealer has a banner on his ad claiming the pays up to 600% of Scott.

Bob in Minnesota (USA)

July 30, 2003 Jim Griffith <griffith@dweeb.org> http://album.dweeb.org
 

Jim

July 30, 2003 David Benson

Alison, "time " often makes items completely kosher. I collect early Tonga and it is well documented that the Postmaster General organised some extra stock of the 1886 values which he supplied to dealers in large blocks cancelled to order. In the early part of the 20th. Century these were considered " illegal " and couldn't be sold as they were deemed uncollectable. Today they are prized and sought after. Look at most " printers waste " and see how opinions for that have changed.

I cannot make any comments about modern Armenia or other ex-Russian areas but that is what the numbering system will weed out from all issues from January 2002. What happened previously is only a matter of conjecture.

David Benson

David Benson

July 30, 2003 21:05 Dave ("philatarium")

Vic: I received the same catalog a couple of days ago. I've never heard of them before, and tried find them on the web to see if they had any presence there. Nothing. Both Bill Claghorn and Jim Griffith are in the Bay Area, and perhaps they are aware of this firm.

Alison: I failed to acknowledge you here when you posted a few days ago. Anyway, a belated welcome!

Lavar: I'm looking for Ambassador to Hawaii. Roger can be Ambassador from Hawaii.

July 30, 2003 David Benson

Alison, the term " illegal " has been commonly used, maybe " pseudo stamps " might be a better description. It us unfair comparing items over 80 years old with items being mass produced today using high speed modern printers.

David Benson

July 30, 2003 David S.

Nope, no image :'(

July 30, 2003 8:57 David S. <shuzilla@hotmail.com>

Test
Test (it's late.) Please excuse me.

July 30, 2003 Victor Horadam <horadam1@airmail.net>

General
Anyone wiling to answer: I just received the auction catalogue from Philatelic Center in Palo Alto, California. They have just scads of nice India stamps I am interested in. Anyone have experience with them, and know how to bid with them? Thanks in advance.

July 30, 2003 Alison Ruttenberg

Ebay back up
Well, I see ebay US is back up now, right after all my auctions would have ended if I had not have cancelled them first. I really hate these site problems

July 30, 2003 Alison Ruttenberg

David: I think you are elevating form over substance. The classical "illegals" are just as illegal as the modern ones. As to having some connection to the alleged issuing country, to continue to use Armenia as an example, who knows for sure that someone in Armenia is not behing some or all of the modern crop of illegals from Armenia like the Spice Girls souvenir sheets and so forth, or that someone from Armenia is not taking a cut of the profits after nominating himself the defacto minister of the post (kind of like the self proclaimed Mayor of Baghdad).
Interesting subpoint in your email: If the name listed on the "stamp" is a non existent country, then how can the stamp be "illegal?" It is just another pseudo-stamp, like many Cinderella and poster labels.

July 30, 2003 David Benson

Alison, there is no comparison with classical illegals like you mentioned and the current crop of illegals. What you mentioned have some relevance to the issuing country but not by the authority of the government. The modern day illegals just use countries names including many non existant countries with gawdy expensive labels aimed at the juvenile trade. Many of these illegals even have the currency in US$ to trick the buyer into thinking they have high face value and that is why they are so expensive.

David Benson

July 30, 2003 Alison Ruttenberg

Illegals and Armenia Bolshevik overprints
Ebay is down for most of the world. Impossible to load auction pages either from the search pages or My Ebay. Therefore, no way to bid or snipe. Rather than sit by and watch helplessly as I lost all the snipe bids (which usually about double my total for the night), I just ended all my auctions that were ending tonight.

So, since there is nothing else to do tonight on ebay (I do not want to list while the site is having these problems), I thought I would add something to the illegals discussion. I take it that the definition of an "illegal" is a stamp created by a third party interloper who has no authority from the government in question to issue stamps in that country's name. Some older stamps that are in the Scott Catalogue, and perhaps others fit this definition. In particular Armenia Scott #295-299.

There is controversy surrounding these 5000r overprint stamps. Scott Catalogue recognizes the 5000r overprint as genuine, but not officially issued. However, in the opinion of the Yerevanm Catalogue of Armenia and some Russian Civil War philatelists, the 5000r overprint is a fake and is only in the Scott Catalogue because the Armenian dealer who advised Scott about the Armenian stamps wanted to perpetuate the fake overprints. Dr. Ceresa's and Tchilingiurian's catalogs say that the first star set--all under 5000 ruble surcharges (1-1000 rubles--75 various values)are accepted as prepared and released. The second set--5000 rubles may have been made as a proof--5 Tsarist values only—all having 5000 rubles surcharge. These were never officially released-- . They say, however, that some people may have the proof originals. Both Ceresa and Tchilingiurian's works are old and out of print. The new Catalog printed in Armenia 1988 claims that the second set--all 5000 rubles are fake and not authorized by the Armenian Bolshevik government and were prepared by Melik Pashaev--who fled Russia. (Therefore, are "illegals.") He was tried and convicted in Vienna and his brother was judged before a court in Moscow in 1924 -- for making these overprint stamps. The new catalog says that despite this, foreign catalogs (Such as Scott) continue to list the second set (Scott #295-299) in their catalogs.

In either case, the 5000 ruble overprint stamps are valuable and highly sought after by collectors – even if faked by Pashaev, it is an interesting chapter in Russian Civil War Philately. Every time I list one of them, it fetches 200% or more of Scott Catalogue value. Therefore, sometimes yesterdays Illegals become tomorrows highly sought after "varieties."

July 30, 2003 Bill Weiss

Rubystamps
Victor; Thanks, that confirms what I thought to begin with.

July 30, 2003 Victor Horadam <horadam1@airmail.net>

General
Bill W: Rubystamps is the ebay arm of Davitt Felder.

July 30, 2003 Bill Weiss

PS
PS Of course you understand that I, on the other hand, do not feel the same way about altered or purposely misdescribed stamps/covers or whatever, and on that, my thoughts are in line with whoever called such sellers something like "scum".

July 30, 2003 7:00PM Bill Weiss

ROGER; I believe the ownewr of Rubystamps (I'm not positive, and perhaps Richard knows for certain) has been expelled from both APS/ASDA. I'm kind of suprised at this listing because I have bought from that seller on more than a few ocassions and have been satisfied, plus he's one of the few on ebay who GUARANTEES satisfaction, return anything within 7 days.
Frankly, I dislike the "I think it's a fake" kind of description, but my thoughts on fakes differ somewhat from most posters and the closest I've read so far to my thinking has been JiM Griffith's earlier comments. I don't (personally) have a problem with anyone selling anything philatelic-related (except perhaps what have been called "illegals") so long as what they are selling is correctly described for what it really is. The problem(s), of course, occur when material is misdescribed, whether on purpose or by honest mistake. Lots of sane folks knowingly collect fakes, forgeries, cinderallas, seals, manufactured/fake cancels, covers, etc. and to my way of thinking, although I do not agree with many of these types of collectibles, I do not feel that anyone really has the right to stop the sale of anything accurately described, so long as there is no law against the sale of that kind of item.
OK, I'm ready for the tirade from anyone who doesn't agree! Alas though, I'm pretty much done for the night!
 

July 30, 2003 Lavar Taylor

Greetings to all. Have been working too hard to do much with stamps recently. If you want to see the most recent insane thing I have done, go here and click on the "Unknowns for governor" story. (You will have to register to see the story.)

July 30, 2003 Roger Heath

Replicas
IMHO - This is the fishing expedition type of auction that does not belong on the Ebay site. If this is to be allowed, it should be in a $1 Start Category, and then let the market place determine the value. These starting and BIN prices make me puke. If this seller is ASDA or APS they should be reprimanded for conducting business detrimental to stamp collecting.

Roger


 

July 30, 2003 17:34 Dave ("philatarium")

APS Show
I know there are regulars from the board who'll be attending the APS show in Cleveland next weekend. Please feel free to post links to pictures from the show on here. (And if you need webspace to host them, just let me know.) It'd be great to see them!

I've been to major shows in London and Tokyo, and to the APS winter show, but haven't been able to make it to the major show yet. (Had hoped to this year, but will need to be in LA for meetings during that period.)

Guillaume: Got your email. Thanks for your recommendations and your kind words. I'm developing a prototype of the links page right now.

July 30, 2003 Jim Griffith <griffith@dweeb.org> http://album.dweeb.org
 

Jim

July 30, 2003 Guillaume

You can tell I hate spam :-)

July 30, 2003 Guillaume van Turnhout

Jim W-S I just read your comment about translating Paolo's French letter. You are absolutely right, it would be difficult for me as well. I had a look at it yesterday, but I need a bigger scan to figure out the handwriting. It looks like somebody is selling something. 18th century French is a pain in the b*tt, but maybe I can have a French-speaking friend look at it.
So, Paolo if you read this, please send me a bigger scan of the letter and I will give it a try (not promising anything). You may have to wait until after the weekend before I reply - lots of work ahead of me in the coming days - but I am looking forward to the challenge.

July 30, 2003 Richard Warren

Jim They're illegal in the sense that they are produced without the knowledge or sanction of the countries whose names they bear, without the knowledge or sanction of the people whose artwork/faces/intellectual property they pirate, and without the knowledge or sanction of the charities (WWF, Rotary, Lions etc) whose logos they bear. They're a clear breach of international copyright laws on several counts, and the only reasons that more producers haven't been successfully prosecuted are the difficulties of proving exactly who are the originators, plus problems of prosecuting Lithuanians registered in the Bahamas etc, plus the circumstance that the most offended nations (Somalia etc) have few resources and much bigger problems that preocccupy them. The intention of illegals producers is to corner the topicals market by flooding it with their own pseudo-stamps.

July 30, 2003 Brian R

There seems to be a whole lot of effort, and worry today, about modern crap (like addie's), and the perveyors of sludge from wheretheheckistan. If anything is simple to prevent it's this sort of stuff. I, for one, would think this type of dreck, would be a great bellweather to gauge if ebay/APS is serious about this latest housecleaning.

July 30, 2003 George K

I refer to your earlier post concerning illegals where you said "Far more buyers get stung with this stuff than do with altered classics." Then there must be a LOT of people getting cheated by illegals. I estimate that one seller alone altered tens of thousands of US classics and sold them on eBay in four years before we got him banished to Yahooauctions.com (where he continues to sell his alterations.) The laws of probability would dictate that there must be others like him as well, selling not only on this venue but in all the others as well.

July 30, 2003 George K

Ran across this link referenced in a CSA lot for sale by ID "john-csa". Looks quite well-done to my CSA-inexperienced eye. You might already know about it, but just in case, here it is:

http://www.jlkstamps.com/fakes/prov.htm

July 30, 2003 Jim Whitford-Stark

Jim

I think one of the reasons that first the UK and then other countries refused to portray living non-royal personages was the possibility that such people might, in the long, run demand some sort of “royalties” for their depiction.

Apart from “illegals” not being legally usable for postage in the “country” which they purport to offer a service for the transport of printed items, I’m sure in many cases, the items have been produced without the consent of the person(s) portrayed. In the vast majority of cases I am sure that it is not worthwhile, from the point of view of obtaining recompense, for the persons so portrayed to “go after” the purveyors of such items.

Probably until someone so portrayed has an ethical rather than a monetary desire to limit the selling practices of such scum, uninformed collectors of predominantly topical tiny works of art will be duped into buying items which are not what they claim to be.

I would have no problem if the sellers listed their items as tiny, gum-backed works of art featuring images of pop stars or gold-plated reproductions of Madonna and child, whatever, as long as they don’t misleadingly portray them as postage stamps and sell them as such on venues such as eBay.
 

July 30, 2003 Ed.B

Ed

July 30, 2003 2255 BST Ed.B

Ed

July 30, 2003 Jim Griffith <griffith@dweeb.org> http://album.dweeb.org
 

Jim

July 30, 2003 Jim Griffith <griffith@dweeb.org> http://album.dweeb.org
 

Jim

July 30, 2003 Dave P

I think perhaps the discussion of logos etc is becoming a little US-centred. For the majority of non-us collectors the APS means little or nothing. In the UK ASDA is a supermarket chain (recently taken over by Wallmart!). On the other hand surely it would not be difficult for Ebay to rule that any seller falsely claiming membership of an organisation should be immediately Narued. This needn't just be for stamps but across the whole collectables field.

July 30, 2003 14:10 COVERWIZ

FAKE to real 1913 Liberty 5c Nickel
Not stamps but close and somewhat on topic: the "missing" 5th 1913 US Liberty Nickel was "found" today. Recently a $1,000,000 reward had been offered for "finding" the nickel. Seems it's been in the closet lockbox of a family for 41 years. After extraction from a car wreck in which the owner was killed, the family was told by a leading dealer the nickel was a "fake". At the American Numismatic Association this morning it was certified as genuine. One of the other 4 changed hands at the show yesterday for $3,000,000. One "experts" opinion was incorrect.....

July 30, 2003 Mark

David

Well, I would have been happy with $700 as that is what I had been offered to end it early ( not by either of the high bidders though ), so I think everyone was surprised by this one.

Mark.

July 30, 2003 David Benson

Mark, it just goes to prove that Ebay is the answer, happy sellers, happy buyers and Ebay gets the percentages. There are a lot of extremely wealthy collectors in Thailand. BTW Richard was closer I said $250 to $ 300 and he said $500. We were both only slightly out.

David Benson

July 30, 2003 Mark Bardell

Siam / Thailand
David

He was on the phone to me the second that it finished - he was ecstatic ! I'm sure that in the back of his mind he was thinking about the one he sold though - although he didn't say anything about it to me.

Mark.

July 30, 2003 Richard Warren

Jim - I suppose a disclaimer of any kind is better than nothing, though I agree with David - these things shouldn't really be sold at all. There's a vaguely worded disclaimer somewhere in a corner of the Stampdile website, but there's none on their Ebay auctions, where they even say "issued by Myanmar" etc, which is a blatant lie. I'm sure there are many, many decent ASDA dealers, but my point is that the logo means nothing when a few members stoop to such practices and the organisation just doesn't want to know.

July 30, 2003 13:49 Dave Frick ("philatarium")

call for links
The links I added to the top of this page last night have prompted me to think it's time to start working on a project I envisioned from the start:

I would like to assemble a "links" page for this site. It could have a section for the philatelic sites, whether personal or commercial, of regular contributors. Personal collections that people have put on line are most welcome.

I would especially like to highlight reference sites, both those of a general nature and those that are country- or topic-specific.

One feature I would like to include would be a brief informative description of the site. And to give it a more participatory feel, I'd also like to include the name(s) of the recommenders. (If you'd rather not be mentioned by name (or by eBay id, I suppose), just let me know and I'll include it anonymously.)

I recognize that this treads a bit on the Yellow Boxes, and I actually hesitated to do this for some time with that in mind. But the actual structure of the Yellow Boxes does not allow for much description, so this is where we could excel. (Kind of like a Zagat's guide for philatelic sites.)

So, send me via email your recommendations. Please include a brief description of the link and why you like it or think it is helpful. I'll go check out the link, and if it needs to be listed under several categories or under several countries, I'll create multiple listings for it.

Also, feel free to post those recommendations here as well, but I'd really like an email to help keep me organized about this (because it could be a big task). If you'll use the "send me an email" link under the "Note" in the new links section above, it will automatically fill in a subject heading, and a filter in my email program will route it to a separate folder.

There are no doubt details I've failed to mention, so I'm sure that'll come out in the discussion on here.

Thanks!
 

July 30, 2003 Jim Whitford-Stark

Illegal stamps are beneath "worthless".
Paolo
I attempted a translation of your letter today.
Didn't get very far.
I think even Guillaume would have difficulties with it.
Apart from correctly identifying letters,
too much, flowery 18th century french.

July 30, 2003 David Benson

Cobbie, you mentioned that your supplier had sold it's Siamese twin (after they were separated) for $400. Have you infomed him of the result.

David Benson

July 30, 2003 David Benson

Richard, I remember attending an FIP meeting discussing the sellers of illegals and the US representative mentioned that there was no need for them to join in the discussion as the sellers had been banned from attending US shows. Looks like someone had it wrong.

Jim, yes it is definitely wrong if dealers at shows sell illegals. They are just " worthless ", " useless " pieces of crap. The profits are enormous and the buyers are gullible. Most for the buyers are schoolchildren using up their pocket money to buy these.

David Benson

July 30, 2003 Jim Griffith <griffith@dweeb.org> http://album.dweeb.org
 

Jim

July 30, 2003 Richard Warren

Randy - maybe your hit list should include some of the more prolific illegals sellers on Ebay? Far more buyers get stung with this stuff than do with altered classics. There's a list of guilty sellers who have sold illegals in the name of Myanmar (my area) on my site:
http://www.bilston73.freeserve.co.uk/ebay.htm

July 30, 2003 1:15 Mark Bardell

Siam / Thailand
David

One mentioned something called the P.A.T or Thailand Times and the other, strangely enough, the APS ( would they know anything about Siam stamps ?? ). Hopefully this won't be a problem as high bidder didn't request this service, but all my stamps carry a full, money back guarantee so we'll see.

Mark.

July 30, 2003 Jim Griffith <griffith@dweeb.org> http://album.dweeb.org
 

Jim

July 30, 2003 Richard Warren

APS - yes, a potentially worthwhile link-up. ASDA? Any deal with Ebay would be a disaster. Bunch of shysters, IMHO. The ASDA logo is, to coin a phrase, entirely worthless.

July 30, 2003 David Benson

Jim and Randy, sounds like you want to divide sellers into professional and amateurs.

David Benson

July 30, 2003 1:05pm Randy Shoemaker <randyshoemaker@netscape.net>

Jim
I would also like that kind of icon recognition but making it mandatory would restrict things too much as one other mentioned. However, the principle has merit and I will advise on this topic.

-Randy Shoemaker

July 30, 2003 David Benson

Mark, just for interest which certifiers did the two that contacted you mention.

David Benson

July 30, 2003 12:44 Mark Bardell

Siam / Thailand
David

Thanks for the comments ! :o). I must admit two people did email me and ask if they could submit it for a certificate if they were lucky in winning it - neither of them were the two highest bidders. I think the scan I supplied was large enough for them to tell otherwise I doubt they would have bid that much on it.

Now off to find another half dozen of them ! LOL ( I'll have to ask Addie to make me some ).

Mark.

July 30, 2003 David Benson

Richard, a fake is a fake is a fake. Your descriptions are fine but who knows what Ebay and APS description are.

David Benson

July 30, 2003 David Benson

D2

July 30, 2003 Jim Griffith <griffith@dweeb.org> http://album.dweeb.org
 

Jim

July 30, 2003 Jim Griffith <griffith@dweeb.org> http://album.dweeb.org
 

Jim

July 30, 2003 Jim Griffith <griffith@dweeb.org> http://album.dweeb.org
 

Jim

July 30, 2003 11:51am Randy Shoemaker <randyshoemaker@netscape.net>

Jim
I gues this whole thing is a great exercise in futility and a cheap way to ventilate. Is that all we're doing???

-Randy Shoemaker

July 30, 2003 Mark Bardell

Siam / Thailand overprint
I'm doing a happy dance ! Not everyday something starts at $5 and finishes at this price. Let's hope it gets a good certificate :)

Mark

Siam / Thailand

July 30, 2003 Jim Griffith <griffith@dweeb.org> http://album.dweeb.org
 

Jim

July 30, 2003 11:03am Randy Shoemaker <randyshoemaker@netscape.net>

Legitimate Pessimism
I sense a palpable pessimism as to the ability of eBay to change. I realize this is born out of the past several years frustration at the activities allowed on eBay to continue unabated. However, I think it is time to draw a LINE IN THE INTERNET (SAND) and become a real THORN if something insn't really done by eBay to head off the frauds. I haven't as yet figured out the 'thorn' angle but historically, I done my share of exposing fraud in the US Government AND the stamp market. Unfortunately, it's a dirty business and "shi_ happens". Scare tactics are employed regularly by the 'biggies', especially when they feel someone has picked up the 'scent'. Thus, I will do a bit of detective work and get back to ya'all.

Happy Hunting!

-Randy Shoemaker
 

July 30, 2003 Richard Frajola

cinderella
Dave P I was thinking of US local posts. I still think that if the Lundy Island labels provided a postal service they are not cinderellas (I don't remember). Also, I certainly don't consider revenue stamps to be cinderellas. Sounds to me that they Society definition reflects what the members collect rather than being any sort of useful definition.

I like mutually exclusive definitions when possible.

July 30, 2003 Roger Heath

Ebay Password Changed - Unauthorized
I received two nasty emails over night from Ebay.
One - my email address has been changed.
Two - my password has been changed.
I've sent both emails on to Ebay using the appropriate Webform contact pages. Anyone else have suggestions what I should do next. The requests were made from France. I have the IP Address, and the ISP host information. Is there anything I can do using this information.
Thanks in advance, Roger

July 30, 2003 10:17 Jim Watson

Paul,
Thanks for the rate information. I've incorporated the information in the page. I wonder why the postage was not double rate while the airmail was. Probably 20c. was inconsequential in the light of a 3Fr. addition for the airmail supplement.

 

July 30, 2003 Dave P

Cinderella
I agree that the definition is wide ranging, basically anything that is not an official postage stamp. This is one of the problems of an international term, that is the way the biggest UK society representing collectors of such things views it, and certainly most collectors in the UK regard "locals", things like the Lundy stamps, and Herm carriage labels as cinderellas.

I doubt there will ever be a worldwide agreement, probably does not matter too much as long as everybody realises that another person's idea of a definition may not tally with their own.

July 30, 2003 Richard Ballhagen (spain_1850)

Cinderella
dave - That is broad indeed! What I get out of that definition is that anything other than a postage stamp is a cinderella, which I think is a bit too broad.

July 30, 2003 Richard Frajola

Cinderella
David P That is an extremely liberal description. Local stamps are certainly NOT cinderellas. Much of the crap listed in definition as cinderellas are seals. I could be persuaded that seals and any adhesive not produced to do perform a revenue or postal function could be classified as a cinderella.

July 30, 2003 Dave P

The masthead of the Club’s quarterly magazine, The Cinderella Philatelist, lists: “Local stamps, telegraph stamps, railway stamps, revenues/fiscals, forgeries, bogus and phantom issues. Christmas, Red Cross, TB and other charity seals, registration labels, advertisement and exhibition labels and many other items.....”. The phrase “many other items” conceals a multitude of minor stamp-like categories. Among the more curious which have found their way into the pages of The Cinderella Philatelist are copyright royalty stamps found on old gramophone records, glove and mitten duty stamps, and chemical reagent bottle deposit labels. Articles have been published on pseudo-postal stationery, telegram forms, war-time street-appeal lapel tags and envelope economy labels.
 

July 30, 2003 Richard Frajola

Cinderella
Richard B I would define "cinderella" as a production that mocks or imitates a genuine adhesive or imprinted stamp that was intended to prepay a postal service.

A "seal" is an adhesive label that was not intended to perform any postal service.

July 30, 2003 Mark Bardell

Switzerland..... MNH
Hello again !

Is this lot really worth almost double Scott CV ??

Switzerland

Thanks !
Mark.

July 30, 2003 Richard Ballhagen (spain_1850)

fakes, forgeries, etc...
What exactly would a "cinderella" be then? It's not a fake, forgery, or reprint by definition as far as I know. I always thought of cniderellas as being a stamp that was created that does NOT represent one that is genuine.

July 30, 2003 Paolo Bagaglia

France 1789 Pre-Adhesives cover
Jim W-S Very kind of yours!
I saved the map with the approx. routes you kindly drew.
If I find out how to use that digital camera correctly, I will show you the watermark on that hand-made coated sheet of paper. In the middle appears what would look like a not better specifyble (by me) symbol, probably of Central American style or inspiration.

Since the original post scrolled off, David B. and, especially Jim W-S helped me with the following folded letter:

front (folded out).

detail of stamped marking on front.

inside
Kind regards,
Paolo

 

July 30, 2003 Mark Bardell

Turbolister
Morning all.

I uploaded some auctions using Turbolister yesterday and there was nothing asking me to confirm the authentication of my lots, just the same old TL.

Mark.

July 30, 2003 Jim Whitford-Stark

Paolo
One of my sites is up so here are the approximate routes.

July 30, 2003 6.57am PT Paul Barsdell <paul.b@webone.com.au>

Paul

July 30, 2003 Victor Horadam <horadam1@airmail.net>

All, from overcast, muggy Dallas.

July 30, 2003 06:25 Jim Watson

Dave P.,
Thanks for correcting my reading of the Express Fee marking. In the process of reproofing I also found a few other corrections which needed to be made. I've updated the page appropriately.

July 30, 2003 1425 BST Ed.B

Ed

July 30, 2003 Richard Frajola

Fake / Forgery
David B The strict definitions I have used for fake and forgery are below in my own words. Reprint added to the mix. I sometimes use the words incorrectly.

Forgery: An item that has as been produced or manufactured specifically to represent something else starting with materials that are not original in any part.

Fake: An item that has been altered in appearance to represent something else. The starting material item can include all, part, or parts, of a genuine item.

Thus, overprints/surcharges can be faked; cancels can be faked onto a genuine stamp, margins may be added, perforations altered, etc. - these qualify it as a fake. Strictly defined, Sperati's productions where he used genuine stamps and washed the design off and printed his new design would be classified as fakes rather than forgeries.

Reprints Items produced uusing the original printing plates. These may have been produced officially by the issuing entity of the original stamp, with official sanction by someone else, or without the approval of the original issuing entity.

July 30, 2003 Dave P

Jim
The UK mark is "Express fee Paid 3D" - applied in London as an indicator to the delivery office.

July 30, 2003 Jim Whitford-Stark

paolo
Have a map drawn for you, but overland is down at the moment so cannot link.
Will try again later.

July 30, 2003 Guillaume van Turnhout (kiompie)

Hi, people. Interesting discussion.
I mentioned this chatroom on the Rossica-site and provided a link.
A bit of advertising cannot hurt, I think. And Dave certainly deserves it.
 

July 30, 2003 Jim Lawler

Jim L.

July 30, 2003 04:26 Jim Watson

Good Morning, Everyone!
Today's dated postal history item is a special delivery (express) airmail cover from France to England in 1920. Find out about the grouse and Devonshire cream!

July 30, 2003 David Benson

Paolo, it has to have a precise definition of what is and what is not a fake otherwise it won't work in practice.

David Benson

July 30, 2003 Paolo Bagaglia

The Philatelic Philosophal Stone
David B.
I see your point. Anyhow, I think it should be easy for them to come to an agreement as both parts speak a very similar language.
This divergence in terminology cannot but hoist towards the seventh heaven the fraudulent spirit of those who think to behold the philatelic philosophal stone.
As for me, if this can be of any interest or even relevance, I perfectly agree with those definitions and think they should be taken as a model to follow.
Paolo
PS I almost forgot the topic: On the philatelic philosophal stone, or on Boccaccio's elitropia, already flew rivers of ink, megabytes of text, terapixels of images therefore I won't add anything on that ;-)

July 30, 2003 sveiki!

And... if I had an entire vacation to reconsider my words, I would probably put them in an even better way. But, as I'm writing directly from "mind to hands" - the result is what it is. Hope you'll understand, or at least try to. {:o)

July 30, 2003 sveiki!

Well, I might take back the phrase: "almost nothing new was built during 50 years of occupation in Riga". That's not true entirely. If one takes a look at the shown picture again, only a tiny part of the buildings in the upper right part of the picture was left standing after WWII.
The brown "L" shaped corner building is of Soviet origin. The building(s) with new roof(s) just below the church steeple the photo was taken from were erected from 1959 to 1961. Actually, the steeple was resurected 1958 since the St. Peter's Church also was hit by bombs and burned out totally.
What I meant by the phrase: "almost nothing new was built during 50 years of occupation in Riga" was: "almost nothing new was re-built during 50 years of occupation in Riga". A minor omission, but important.

July 30, 2003 David Benson

Paolo, that may be Ron Butler's idea of a fake but I doubt it was the intention of the APS. The APS has to make a definitive statement of the definition of a fake before it informs anyone that the listing has to be changed to the CINDERELLA & FAKE category. There is a difference between a faked stamp and a fake. A fake stamp is one that has been altered but a fake is a complete forgery or forged overprint. The APS should ask for advice regarding Ebay stamp listings here or on Ebay Chat not in collusion with Ebay who admit they know nothing about philately.

David Benson

July 30, 2003 sveiki!

Roger Thanks for taking a look at the pictures. {:o) Well, as you maybe can glimpse in the corners of the photos - almost nothing new was built during 50 years of occupation in Riga. Which also gives the town atmosphere, since it's possible to imagine how it looked like more than 50 years ago (in many places one still has to imagine some paint to the houses and 50 years of wear in the minus).

Development is moving quite fast in Riga though (when one visits a couple of times a year - to the locals changes are not that noticeable). Could explain which houses got a makeover and which were newly built - but wont. {:o) Just an example: This photo shows a birdview of the Ratsnams Laukums (Town Hall Square). 5 years ago the three buildings in the left corner didn't exist, the area was level (empty), only the "black box" building hiding behind them was there (former Museum of the Red Rifflemen - now the Museum of Soviet Occupation 1940-1991 *ah, how things can change* {;o).
Amongst those three buildings is the Melngalvju Nams (House of the Blackheads). The original Melngalvju Nams dates back to the 1330's, was destroyed 1941 during German bomb raids, was resurected 1999 according to the original charts.
The house with the green roof in the middle didn't exist either 5 years ago, the unfinished white house with tower on top is the resurection of the old Town Hall. In it's place there was an ugly Soviet style red building, which was torn down partly to give space for this wonderfull building.
Would love to get my hands on a photo from the same angle that was taken 5 to 10 years ago. Many changes - and more to come.

Regarding fast ferries and ships. The ship we took from Karlshamn, Sweden to Liepaja, Latvia is of the RO/RO type (Roll On/Roll Off), which can be seen on the pictures. It moves slowly. The journey between the two ports took 16 hours over night.
Last year we took a hydrofoil from Nynäshamn, Sweden directly to Riga, Latvia. With an ordinary ship the journey would have taken 16 hours as well. The hydrofoil (ship that sails, almost flies ON water, not IN water) journey took only 9 hours.
I'm sure a hydrofoil would be good business in Hawaii - it carries vehicles as well as passengers. And 50 mill. - that's what you get sticking a hand in one of my pockets *LOL* {:o)
 

July 30, 2003 Paolo Bagaglia

Fakes and Forgeries
From the article of Mr. A Ronald Butler (RDP HonFRPSL) on "Fake Forgeries Experts" Journal (F.F.E. No.1, Issue of October 1998 at pp. 7 and 8):

"A faked stamp is a genuine stamp that has been altered with a view to enhancing its philatelic value (...)"
(e.g. the stamp I linked yesterday evening; a deadly common 10c. bistre Sardinia type, kissed by a piercing prince and magically transformed in an Italy 1862 -- a very recurrent occurrence)

"A forged stamp is a fraudulent imitation of a genuine stamp, of a genuine overprint or surcharge which might be applied to a stamp or of a genuine postal obliteration used to invalidate a stamp on usage."

You can get a copy of this Journal here (hope the link works) from Monday 25th August 2003 (that is, after the summer closing).

With my apologies for my previous omission and misspelling of the name.
Paolo

July 30, 2003 Paolo Bagaglia

Fakes and Forgeries
From the article of Mr. Roland Butler (RDP HonFRPSL) on "Fake Forgeries Experts" Journal (F.F.E. No.1, Issue of October 1998 at pp. 7 and 8):

"A faked stamp is a genuine stamp that has been altered with a view to enhancing its philatelic value (...)"
(e.g. the stamp I linked yesterday evening; a deadly common 10c. bistre Sardinia type, kissed by a piercing prince and magically transformed in an Italy 1862 -- a very recurrent occurrence)

"A forged stamp is a fraudulent imitation of a genuine stamp, of a genuine overprint or surcharge which might be applied to a stamp or of a genuine postal obliteration used to invalidate a stamp on usage."

You can get a copy of this Journal here (hope the link works) from Monday 25th August 2003 (that is, after the summer closing).
Paolo

July 30, 2003 Roger Heath

Potpouri
David -
Makes sense to me that APS would have no "jurisdiction" outside US of A. That makes it more of a laugh, if Ebay considers itself an international corporation, but can't be consistant among its corporate divisions. I think, more often than not, that non-US Ebay divisions must be franchises that report to "Mother Meg", but must resolve their own national business problems, ala MacDonalds.

Paolo -
Meow, ow, ow!

Sveiki!-
I looked at your vacation pictures and really enjoyed them. Cities are very nice when nothing is more than 3-4 floors high. All cities with church steeples should set height limits so the steeples can be seen !! I was on acouple of ferries when in Britain, and all I think is how a High Speed ferry would make money in Hawaii. They could really give the airlines some competition, plus people could take their cars when they visit other islands. Plus cargo trucks would move much faster than on the present barges that are towed by tugs. What a vision! Anyone have $50 million to partner a business?

Roger

July 30, 2003 Paolo Bagaglia

France 1789 Pre-Adhesives Cover
Jim W-S
Thank you very much for having deciphered the stamped marking and for the three hypotheses on the route! It is much appreciated!
Now I will try again to download that map you had previously linked and envision the possible routes after your indications.


Your vacation
Sveiki! -- Greetings back to, Paul!
Glad to know, besides what you kindly wrote on the cards you sent me, you had a prosperous and prolific holiday and that you're back home safely!
Thanks for the further explanatory details on the paquebot postcard and I am also glad Bob H. (greetings as well) could improve the text of the history of Latvia.


Cats and stamps
As an aside note, yesterday evening I had to bring my 'younger' cat to the vetenarian; she's got a problem in one of its ears, originated from a topic parasitic contamination by ear mites and degenerated, once I executed the ear mites one by one w/o trial ;-), in a chronic inflammation which we could not even manage to sedate with 'prednison' (strong stuff). I mention this because the cat (her name is Minima) once ate one of my postage stamps, which I inadvertently had left unguarded over my work table (a used and sound Lombardy Venetia, Issue for Veneto of 1863 15 soldi brown perf'd 14, with an estimated value of about US$100.00).
We already spent about four times as much as the value of that stamp on vet bills, alas.

All the best, Paolo

July 30, 2003 David Benson

Roger, just checked the Australian listing and went as far as submit and there is nothing about verification of genuiness or fakes. It is only when anyone lists on the US site which means Ebay is using commonsense for a change.

David Benson

July 30, 2003 David Benson

Roger, I have not heard of any proviso on the non English language listing pages which states that the item is guaranteed to be genuine by the seller and agrees to APS jurisdiction. It would be nonsensical unless of course a German adjudication group was handling it instead of APS. I doubt if Ebay even thought of it and it is only on the English language pages. I am going to check the other English language listing pages and see if it is on them.

David Benson

July 30, 2003 Roger Heath

Questionable items
This Ebay Germany dealer presents a situation that will require decision by the powers that be. Nearly everything is "Fälschung" and identified as such. Therefore, we have a dilema, and we are no further in resolving this problem than we were 100 years ago. Are these crators and sellers really providing a service to collectors who will never be able to obtain the real stamps? The question I think needs to be answered is whether or not the APS and Ebay wish to make it very easy for these items to be sold, or make collectors go and look for them. None of these auctions that I looked at belong in the listed category, they all should be listed in FAKES & Cinderellas, or not allowed. Bill Claghorn would be my expert chosen to determine whether or not these auctions have any philatelic redeeming value!

Roger

 

July 29, 2003 David Benson

George, sorry, fake means fake stamp, not alterations, the items still should be listed under the normal category BUT all descriptions should include any alterations that were made.

Bill, sorry that you do not like to hear about problems with certs. but that is what certs. shouldn't have, problems. I stiull can't believe taht more can be told by a scan than by inspection. If a cert. if given under close inspection it should be correct, especially if it can be disputed by a scan.

p.s. I have never seen a problem with a Royal certificate for any of the 2 areas that I specialise in, although an item I have has a cert. over 60 years old which I have been told would not get a clean cert. now but would be noted that the overprint was posthumous.

David Benson

July 29, 2003 7.50 Bruce Campbell <cb@classicbruce.com> http://www.classicbruce.com
 

I'm not gonna get into (okay, just a litle) some other terms like "cindy" and another interesting one, the old "bogus." "Bogus" has a boatload of meanings, depending on geography, culture, industry, a bunch of factors. I like the term, and use it loosely to mean anything from fakes to cindys usually when I have no idea what an item is, ony just not a postal/fiscal item. "Bogus" is a nice catch-all term for somehting I cannot identify better, I guess(perhaps I got this meaning from where I grew up), but it's a "loaded" term that can be confusing when thrown into philatelic circles, like the others above, and I try to only use it with people I know quite well. Any other similar words we missed yet?

July 29, 2003 George K

Unfortunately, except in SOME cases where there are certs, no one is going to admit to faking them by putting them in a category that says "Yes I am a crook".

July 29, 2003 George K

Seems like these fit the classic definition of "fakes". All of these were favorites of Greg.

July 29, 2003 Mark Bardell

$1 Cattle in storm.
I too had emailed the seller explaining that it was a modern stamp and not the original - here is his reply to me:

It is wrong. I have been trying to take it off e-bay but am blocked due somekind of security change. Thanks for note.This was in the estate of my Aunt, so I assumed it was old as her other stamps were from the 20's and before.
Bob

Off to bed !
Mark.
 

July 29, 2003 7:00PM Bill Weiss

Various
Good evening everyone. As I am now mounting stamps for photos for my next public auction, I can only come on to this esteemed board for a short period at night, so by the time I get to comment on anything it may be "hours old".
Anyway, welcome Randy S. and glad to see you made it aboard. I am sure this board will be richer for your presence.
I would like to echo a few things said earliewr about expertizing, since many of you are aware I am a big advocate of expertizing, despite, as David B. pointed out it is sad commentary when several experts oon this board point out what appear to be obvious alterations on a stamp that has a "good" cert. They are only opinions,, and mistakes will be made, but believe me folks, I annually look at tens of thousands of stamps between our auction, my expertizing, collecting, etc, and without expert committees, the percentage of flawed material (just US stamps here) in the marketplace that would be sold to unknowing buyers would be HUGE!
As was pointed out here too, indeed anyone can literally become their own expert. A guy like Ken Srail is a perfect example. He now posesses as much expert ability on much of the existing US material as bonafide "certified" experts. The problem is that the average collector thinks that spending money on expertizing is a waste of money. I've heard countless times in my career...."the hell with spending good money on certificates (or books), I would rather spend it on stamps"! Right, and that's exactly what every unscrupulous seller is PRAYING you will say! That's what empowers them to stay in business and indeed, prosper. When folks see the obvious advantage to thinking of expertizing as kind of an insurance policy on the better material they buy, that's when we will be able to make a dent into the world of crooks out there, and not before.
Read books, consider expertizing on larger purchases (and only YOU can determine what constitutes a "larger" purchase, but like pornography, you will know it when you see it!

July 29, 2003 David Benson

I just waded from the 10 pages of Cinderella/fake listings and 99.999% are Cinderllas, only a couple of fakes. The rest are listed under the country of " issue ".
I sent a letter to Safeharbor last week mentioning Adtinvest listing forgeries and mentioned the fake category. So far no reply (so what else is new).

David Benson

July 29, 2003 18:20 Dave ("philatarium")

new links at top of page
HungaryJim's comments prompted me to make some changes and put in some important links at the top of this page. Although it makes the page longer, it's already long, and I hope having these links easily visible and handy may be helpful to newcomers and occasional visitors.

There's now a link to the eBay stamp-selling guidelines, which includes the "report" link at the bottom of the page. There are also links to the APS guidelines, to 2 of the SCADS pages, and to Bill Claghorn's forgery site.

At some future point, I can see a separate page of helpful links to country-specific references, etc., although I think these should stay at the top of the main page no matter what.

July 29, 2003 David Benson

Greg, I think that is what Ebay's intention is and any items that are listed in any category should be changed. If a seller lists the item under a different category it will stay there until someone complains as I doubt Ebay will be checking.

The other problem is that the word " fake " is not normally used in a philatelic sense. It would be best if Ebay and the APS actually define what constitues a fake and what doesn't. Everyone's opinion is different. To me it means forged stamps, forged overprints, forged cancels " but not cleaned cancels to make a stamp look mint or regummed stamps. IMO the fake category should only be used for classical forgeries produced from plates and overprints if printed from a plate and not just rubber handstamps. Very complicated field to discuss what should be in and what should be out. If it was sent to APS for adjudication then they should stipulate what they consider should be moved from other listings to fake and exactly what is meant by fake.

David Benson

July 29, 2003 5:34 Greg Olmstead

Selling Fakes
Recently there has been some discussion about eBay's policy regarding the sale of fakes and forgeries. In light of their new standards will the sale of collectible fakes even be allowed? After the reorganization of the stamp categories there is now a category clearly labeled "FAKES". This clearly implies that selling fakes is allowed if, as in keeping with their other new guidelines, they are described and listed as such. The addition to the final selling page, part of which was posted earlier, ends with this sentence: "By clicking the submit button, you are confirming that the item you are about to list is properly described and genuine." Therefore, when a seller lists a properly described fake he is confirming it is a "genuine fake" rather than a "fake fake" when he clicks the submit button.
 

July 29, 2003 16:44 pm Jim Gaul(hungaryjim) <terrynjim@enter.net>

claghorn1p: Bill, Thanks for your early post regarding the link to report stamp selling violations! I've printed that whole page out and recommend everyone else do the same. Just maybe, over a matter of time, we can get the undesirable and scrupulous sellers off of eBay! Wouldn't that be nice, for a change! I also took note on that page under guidelines a statement that tells everyone to visit eBay's Stamps Chat Board. How's that going to work if everytime a bad seller is mentioned on the board, the post gets REPORTED and removed! Very contrary in my estimation. Anyway, hope to run into some of you at Stampshow, Columbus OH. next week. Till then, take care and keep on stampin', Jimbo2

July 29, 2003 George K

I also contacted the seller of that rare bi-color "Cattle in Storm" last week and told him (nicely) that it was a modern reprint worth about a nickel. He didn't promise to withdraw it, but he did thank me, and tell me it was from his grandmother's collection.

July 29, 2003 15:38 Dave ("philatarium")

Bill C.: Let me publicly thank you here for your reply on both boards. Many thanks. I've forwarded that link on to the original poster, and I encouraged him to file the report since he had the correspondence from the seller saying that he was going to withdraw it. I'm going to keep an eye on the lot and may take action if anyone bids on it.

Here's the link to the lot under discussion:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2942314801

July 29, 2003 Jim Whitford-Stark

David
Examples such as this

July 29, 2003 Bob H.

Guess it would help if I read more of the Board before posting - would have seen the e-mail(s) got there. Oh, well.

July 29, 2003 Bob H.

text on Latvia

Figure I still owe you a favor or so for helping re-design my website. I learned from that - and stole some code for another one that doesn't look much like it, but was modeled on it.

July 29, 2003 sveiki!

Good Night and Peace to Mankind!
*hehe* Pulling the plug to go downstairs for a glass of Georgian wine and some excellent garlic grissini. Ciao! {:o)

July 29, 2003 Jim Whitford-Stark

David

I haven't listed anything recently but am glad to see that such wording appears on stamp selling pages.
Not that it will dissuade the blatant recalcitrants but may prevent those who are totally clueless from wasting their money by listing stamps with monetary values less than eBay listing fees.

July 29, 2003 sveiki!

Text on Latvia
Bob Received both e-mails. Everything is OK. The first one you mailed to an e-mail address I rarely check (but did today since I figured you might have used it). The second mail went to the regular e-mail address linked to from here. Many thanks again Bob! {:o)

July 29, 2003 Bob Hohertz

Latvia
Paul,
Did you get either of the copies I e-mailed you of my suggestions on your capsule history of Latvia? If not, where can I e-mail it to so you have a better chance?

July 29, 2003 sveiki!

Current Mode of Collectionism (if that's a word) {;o)
Aaaaahhhhh... Been looking through my postcard collection with views of Riga - Nice memories! {:o) - - - (You've guessed it! sveiki! is tripping - high on the leisure, pleasure of vacation. Wish it could last forever...) {;o)

July 29, 2003 sveiki!

Greetings!
Paolo Thanks for your comments on the Riga photos and the text on Latvian history. {:o) It was a great vacation - the best in years! I've made a whole bunch of decisions about the future and what it should contain. BTW... I've found most of the postcards you've sent from Italy during your vacations the last couple of years. Nice memories. {:o) Ah... One more thing... About the paquebot postcard. It wasn't the lady from the ship that mailed the postcards... I don't think anyone really considered what the logistics should be to get the postcards mailed from Sweden (meaning: dropping those darned things into a mailbox in Sweden *how careless of them* {;o). Seems like all the cards went straight to the shipping company office in Latvia - no wonder why they were mailed from Liepaja. Well, when I offered to compensate for the 5x 20 santimes - she (the lady at the information desk onboard the ship) just made a gesture with her hand saying "forgetaboutit". {;o)

Bob in StL Got your e-mail. Will work on it later this week when I get the time. Many thanks for your efforts! {:o) I'll promised to have a look at your website - and I will when I get the time.

July 29, 2003 David Benson

NOIP,

I don't know if everyone is aware of the additon to the sales page.


Attention Sellers:
Are you confident that the stamp you are listing is authentic? Are you aware that it is against eBay policy to sell fraudulent items?
eBay reserves the right, in its sole discretion, to remove any stamp or stamp related item listed on its site if eBay believes that the listing of the item is inconsistent with the selling guidelines set out by the American Philatelic Society, or inconsistent with eBay's goals of promoting the hobby and maintaining a safe trading environment.
eBay strongly recommends that all stamp sellers include in their listings all relevant information known about the stamp, including a clear scanned image of the actual stamp and ALL information concerning any alterations that the seller believes may have been made to the stamp.

David Benson





 

July 29, 2003 Jim Whitford-Stark

paolo
An unlikely thought crossed my mind, it went by boat.
To Bordeaux then on canal to Castelnaudary.

July 29, 2003 George K

And Dave, I am ALWAYS reading your board; I try to limit my contributions to when I think I have something to contribute. Anybody wants to get in touch with me can just put a message on your board. Great job you've done with it, too.

July 29, 2003 Paolo Bagaglia

David B.
I find it interesting that in this site you kindly linked on eBay Stamp chat for other reasons (that was Marocco -- sorry, I and other 70 millions people call it like this) there has to be proposed a FAKE Italy perforated 11½ which can be seen here.
Despite Mr. Lorenzo, which is an esteemed expert of Italian States and early Italy stamps and postal history, contributed with images on that COMMERCIAL site (available with a CD rom???), I found myself obliged to report this fake.
Paolo Bagaglia

July 29, 2003 Jim Whitford-Stark

Paolo

I think I finally deciphered your cover.
The printed cancel appears to be CAS.TELNAUD.
This would appear to be the town of Castelnaudary which is approximately 50 miles due west of Agde.
This seems to make for a strange route, especially since France was in the throws of the revolution.

One would have expected the cover to travel via a route which avoided Paris at the time such as

Chauny--> Rheims--> Dijon--> Lyon--> Nimes--> Montpelier--> Agde

Instead, it appears to have travelled either

Chauny--> Paris--> Tours--> Bordeaux--> Toulouse--> Castelnaudary--> Agde

Or possibly

Chauny--> Paris--> Orleans--> Vierzon--> Chateauroux--> Limoges--> Toulouse--> Castelnaudary--> Agde.

It had its own cute little cancel earlier this year.
 

July 29, 2003 David Benson

Randy, one of the worst offenders on Ebay is the seller ATDINVEST, he has been selling fake handstamps for many years and then later went on to selling computerised prints firstly in imperf. sheets and now in perforated blocks. You can read about his nefarious activoties on Scads. I have been sending letters to all his buyers for about 5 years and now it is difficult as his sales are private and buyers can only be contacted if they leave feedback. Most of his buyers do not realise that they are modern computer productions but are misled into believing that they are classical fakes. Some of his blocks and sheets have also been enhanced with his earlier fake handstamps.
Complaints have gone to many Post Offices about copywrite but only Canada Post have done anything about it. He does not fake any US material as he realises that the authorities would look unkindly towards it, although he did make some RF overprints.
David Benson

July 29, 2003 Christo van Zyl

Many thanks David, much appreciated.

July 29, 2003 David Benson

Christo, that was for the KEVII $1, didn't notice the QV overprint. That is a fiscal cancel, colour washed out and appears to have a crease, only use is a spacefiller, add it with the other one, may add a $1 or $2.

David Benson

July 29, 2003 David Benson

Christo, yes it is worth listing, the Red handstamp is a security marking and they are very popular especially on higher vales and with a Shanghai cancel makes it easier to ID. Just describe it simply and there will be plenty of bids, should go for about $10-15.

David Benson

July 29, 2003 12:43 Bill Claghorn (claghorn1p) http://www.geocities.com/claghorn1p/
 

http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/selling-stamps.html and fill out the form.

July 29, 2003 Christo van Zyl

Thanks, Christo
 

July 29, 2003 Paolo Bagaglia

Bood evening
Tomloweculturalanthopology ;-)-- Hi Tom. Please, check your e-mail (interesting news, maybe?!).

Paolo

July 29, 2003 Roger Heath

Roger

Randy - Welcome! I would really like to see your previous post -"A journey of a MILLION MILES begins with....." posted on the Ebay Chat Board and see how long it lasts. We could start a pool, I'm in for less than 5 minutes, LOL.

 

July 29, 2003 Jim Griffith <griffith@dweeb.org> http://album.dweeb.org
 

Jim

July 29, 2003 Richard Ballhagen (spain_1850)

Randy - Welcome aboard! I'm not sure you'll find 52 top offenders, but I'll bet that a TOP TEN list is extremely possible. On that TOP TEN list, I'd place the sellers antiquetraders and rarestamp, who are the same as far as I can tell, and who regularly offers forgeries advertised as "cinderellas", with private feedback, private auctions, and selling them "as is".

July 29, 2003 Brian R

Greg Don't be silly. We all know the charges aren't for the expertizing....its for the nice color pic you can taunt other collectors with :o)

July 29, 2003 10.43 am Colin Judd UK (xzephyr) <thejudds@saltsvillage.freeserve.co.uk>

Colin

July 29, 2003 10:34 Greg Olmstead

Certification
I just spent $33.10 to have a stamp expertized by PSE. I thought it was a good deal because I took advantage of their June special. Now I discover I could have had it expertized right here on this board for free! How silly of me.

July 29, 2003 Brian R (briguy)

welcome
Randy S A warm welcome to you! All you have to do to find the qestionalble on ebay is focus on item decriptions. If it says estate sale, attic find, grandpa's stamps", etc, you've got about an %80 chance of getting taken. I wish this was ment as humor...but it's not.

July 29, 2003 10:18 Dave ("philatarium")

Randy: Welcome! Glad to have you here! If George K. drops by, he can surely direct you to some of the most highly prolific offenders. He has written about them on here many times. And, as Jim W-S indicated, the SCADS site is also a good place to start. Some of this is pretty appalling. (Like the auction I just mentioned in my immediately prior post.)

July 29, 2003 10:12 Dave ("philatarium")

how to report questionable eBay auctions?
I just received this email from someone who asks:

- - - - - - - -

I have been trying to report a misrepresented stamp since last Thursday, none of the problem reporting pages work. Apparently there is no way to contact ebay?
Can you help. This is a totally frustrating site! Why doesn't ebay have a way to contact them?
Item # 2942314801 listed as #292 is actually a reproduction issued in 1998. I contacted the seller last Thursday, he said he'd cancel, but it is still on.

- - - - - - -

This is the $1 bi-color reprint of the Trans-Mississippi issue. The seller is representing it as the original stamp.

How can this be dealt with?
 

July 29, 2003 10:05am Randy Shoemaker <randyshoemaker@netscape.net>

Steve Taylor
A journey of a MILLION MILES begins with the first step. I think eBay may be trying to at least route out the most aggregeous offenders (Riny 218, North, etc.). If eBay can't rid themselves of this ilk, there is NO HELP for this site. I, for one, think eBay is a fantastic venue....for the GOOD or the BAD. It is up to eBay to determine their long term goals of extinction or expansion. Only time will tell but I think they finally have someone who looks in the longer terms of success instead of what the next month or quater profit earnings might be. Give them at least an open shot at trying to do something good. If they fail, we will all curse their existence. If they are able to do some major house cleaning, we will all benefit.

I think a good policy for eBay is to invoke the 250, 500, 1000 & 3000 RULE: Closely examine any SELLER with Feed-Back numbers at those levels. This would at least keep these CROOKS impact to a minimum! Riny218 at 3000+ is a great example. I would like to see the total sales volume for this guy to see how much of an impact he may have. I would hazard a guess that it is UNBELIEVEABLE!!!!

Give me your thoughts!!!

-Randy Shoemaker
PSE

July 29, 2003 Jim Whitford-Stark http://www.iomoon.com
 

Dave P

An interesting map.
An immediate thought is that the, then fairly recent, French revolution may have prompted the publication of the map for the use of the British PO.
However, I doubt if publication times and preparation times have changed much in the last 200 years, so I suspect that the map was commissioned long before the French Revolution.

It was within this same time frame that both the French and the British were constructing the first geological maps of their respective countries. Totally irrelevant, but I thought I’d include it.

I would suspect that increasing communication between the British Isles and Europe necessitated the postal service knowing where their mail was going, to what extent it could be charged and the approximate travel time. I wonder if there is a similar map for the Netherlands (+ modern Belgium)?

Ed

If you could have bought them off NZ web site, I don’t see why they could not have been used for postage (though such a use might defy the definitions of sanity but, on the other hand, might be smart if it is the only known postally-used example) and therefore SG would not be foregoing their cataloging requirements by listing them. Wanna bet SG bought a few sheets?

Randy
Welcome.
You could always start with the SCADS listings
 

July 29, 2003 9:30am Randy Shoemaker <randyshoemaker@netscape.net> http://www.psestamp.com
 

eBay selling practices
Hi to everyone out there in eBay Land. I am participating in this forum to help route out the really bad eggs selling garbage (misdescribed or FAKE stamps) on the internet and eBay. I would like to START with my 52 worst offenders (My "WORST STAMP OFFENDERS DECK OF CARDS"). Any help I can get would be MOST APPRECIATED!!!

AS they say in playing cards... HIT ME (with names I can query for obvious patterns of deception!

Best regards -

Randy Shoemaker
President
Professional Stamp Experts
www.psestamp.com

July 29, 2003 Paolo Bagaglia

France 1789 Pre-Adhesives Cover
David B. and Jim W-S
Many thanks for your attempts and Jim thanks for the link but could not download the map yet. I will study the possible iter and meaning of the stamped marking and other manuscript notations (which may have something to do with the exchange of the horses on a >600km distance) myself when I find the time.



Expertising Certificates & else

Jim W. (Jimbo)-- Very pleasant reading of your nice article. We often find each other on the same wavelength . I didn't have it in my favorites and had kind of forgotten of that, but now it's there. Thank you for sharing it again.

Chris C. I have a problem with your last period. Would you be so kind as to exaplain or expand?


Paolo (off for dinner but BBL)

July 29, 2003 1700 BST Ed.B

Ed

July 29, 2003 Dave P

Nice link you posted. What really suprised me was that is was published on the orders of The Postmaster General London.

That is completely new to me, I know London ordered some colonial maps (which might be expected) but was unaware that they did this sort of thing. Would be interesting to trace it in the GPO archives and see what else they were up to.

July 29, 2003 Jim Whitford-Stark

paolo
The "Cas.Thinaud" or whatever it is on your cover has defeated me.
However, a super 18th century map of the post roads of France can be had here.
It is a very slow loader but you can keep enlarging Kitchin's map to gigantic size.

July 29, 2003 07:37 Jim Watson

NOIP,
Four years ago I wrote a piece called Be Your Own Expert which was written to sugest that stamp collecting could be effectively pursued without depending on expert opinion.

My premise is that well over 90% of all stamps ever issued can be correctly identified and evaluated by collectors with a modicum of skill and diligence. That leaves only a small number which require further study.

Most of us restrict our interests to limited fields. Expertise in these areas can be learned by anyone who wishes to study the issue. Only when you are pursuing world-wide expertise does this become a daunting task.

This does not deny the role of experts, but one should always know what to expect from a good expert group regarding something in which you are a specialist.

July 29, 2003 Richard Ballhagen (spain_1850)

APS/ebay aliance
Has anybody reported anything since this alliance was announced? Is it in affect as of right now? Is there a special place to report items, or just the standard forms? I think I would like to give it a try with the sellers that offer forgeries listed as "cinderellas", with private feedback, private auctions, sold "as is".

July 29, 2003 Richard Frajola

I am still too high - 2% errors maybe - it just SEEMS higher. I hear about the mistakes more than the OK stuff.

July 29, 2003 Richard Frajola

Ken S The market won't accept "no opinion" certificates - too bad because that would more accurately reflect the state of expert abilities in many cases. I give "no opinion" responses several times a year on covers. Knowing what you don't know is important!

July 29, 2003 Richard Frajola

Dave P It is a problem knowing which expert, or expert group, to use on a specific area. Best gauge would be, I think, what certificates the large specialist auction houses rely on. That at least would tell you who is commercially recognized.

As an aside, I think that I have only seen a couple Royal certificates for straight US stamps. And, as I have said many times, I pay no attention whatsoever to APS certificates on anything (sorry). The quality, or lack thereof, fluctuates dramatically with who looks at a particular item. And, unlike PSE, since there is no waying of knowing who looked at a specific item, one has to assume the lowest common denominator. Poof - down to no value at all

July 29, 2003 06.41 Ken Srail

The problem is that some times even the "experts" won't agree on the opinion. In such a case, it's very difficult to talk about the "accuracy". A "probability" would be more helpful, although quite difficult to sell. "It's 80% likely to be a genuine Scott 351 line pair" just won't fly (i.e. people wouldn't pay money for that opinion), even though that's the reality of what they might be saying.

July 29, 2003 Dave P

Certificates
Richard, I was interested in your estimate of accuracy. What would you guess the accuracy rate for, as an example, APS certs. on European issues, or Royal certs. on US stamps? I wonder if it would be possible to get up a list of the most reliable certs for various regions.

July 29, 2003 06:22 Bill Claghorn (claghorn1p) http://www.geocities.com/claghorn1p/
 

Poland #1 Forgery
Chris Ceremuga Thanks for the explanation.

July 29, 2003 Richard Frajola

Revision Make that 95% of the time the get autenticity correct.

July 29, 2003 Jim Whitford-Stark

I thought this item was an attempted rip-off until I went to NZ postal Service.
Yes the NZ postal service did sell these at $575 (NZ) per sheet and were rapidly sold out.
I don't think that I have come across such a gross example of PO greed anywhere before. At least the dune countries had the decency to keep them cheap and abundant.

July 29, 2003 Chris Ceremuga <ceremuga@hotmail.com>

Poland #1 Forgery
Yes, it is a modern forgery.

Poland #1 was basically spared the interest of the oldtime forgers (1 type of oldtime forgery is known - very rare). However, in 1982/83 new & quite dangerous forgeries appeared on the market nicely printed by typography like the originals. They were made mint & used and even as nice pairs or multiples tied to pieces by well forged cancels. Often have fake expertizing signatures of various Polish experts.

Forgeries were also done with extra oval variety Scott #1c, and I have in my reference collection one such forged example with an incorrect 1983 Friedl Expert Committee cert signed by Alex Rendon proclaiming it to be genuine....

The identifying details of the 1980's forgery were published in Poland at the time and in the mid-late 1990's new "improved" versions began to appear with the published distingiushing features corrected - the stamp on Ebay is one of these. The colors have also been improved but are still not quite right. The forgeries are not often seen but I suspect many are in collections as genuine due to them having forged expertizing signatures and/or incorrect certs.

A$203 sale price on Ebay shows how easily some collectors "convince themselves" that they know a lot and that the stamp is genuine. Such "bargain hunters" as always "want to believe" that everything is genuine and that they have bought a bargain (A genuine Poland #1 with such superb centering & perfs and original gum would be worth US$1000-$2000 at least). However, noting that the top bidder is from Italy possibly he thinks that he can get an Italian cert for it and sell it on as genuine ....
 

July 29, 2003 Richard Frajola

erroneous certs
And what happens to all of those stamps with multiple certs? The certs that mention faults get "lost" and the stamps are sold based on the best certificate. Recent Harmer NY sales have had numerous lots of foreign fakes and forgeries in them that have been bringing astronomical prices. Biggest prices have been for lots that are signed as genuine (in error) or have old certs that say they items are OK. I swear I have seen these stamps re-appearing on ebay without mention that they are bad. Often they get "proceesed" through a re-seller who doesn't know much (apparently) and are thus sanitized.

I think that it is important to remember that the original intent of expert groups was only to determine authenticity. On US material the US groups usually get that correct on stamps (I'd guess 90% of the time). I can live with their mis-identifications more easily (they aren't responsible for the inane catalog listings). The market has forced them to comment on condition and gum and that is where there is no consistency.

I think any pro in the field should be able to know before submitting a stamp EXACTLY what the certificate will say (barring some oversight on pro's part) when it comes back. At present, that is not possible with US stamps. This is one of the reasons it is untenable for me to deal in US stamps.

July 29, 2003 Victor Horadam <horadam1@airmail.net>

All, from sunny Dallas.

July 29, 2003 04:57 Jim Watson

Good Morning, Everyone!
Today's dated postal history item is a wrapper from St. Lucia to Sierra Leone in 1904. Another uncommon usage shown in this 99 year-old!

July 29, 2003 David Benson

Mark, yes, the catalogue value is irrelevant as it is not mint or used. Whowever who wrote the certificate needs to have more common sense and write sonething that describes what the item is and not what it is not. It is neither mint nor used but could be anything and the certificate should have been explicit. It could be unused with a fake cancel added. Why would anyone apply a fake cancel to an unused stamp, maybe heavily spotted or creased. It could be a SPECIMEN overprint removed and a fake cancel added or it could be fiscally used, cleaned and a fake cancel added which is the most likely. It may have been better to leave the fiscal cancel on as it is still a very collectable item for a Revenue collector or a spacefiller for a Postal collector and still worth about $200.



David Benson

July 29, 2003 Jim Lawler <jlawler@comteck.com>

Jim L.

July 29, 2003 04:42 Ken Srail

I still highly recommend that "general US collectors" get at least a few certs for the better items in their collection. The expertizers do an excellent job overall, and the collectors are almost always surprised by the result of that simple exercise. My standing bet is this: "Certify your 5 most expensive purchases (which were sold as 'sound')". Sight unseen, I wager that at least 3 of them will NOT receive clean certs. Most of the time I win the bet (and I'm "way ahead" with wagers against eBay buyers, LOL!)
 

July 29, 2003 Mark Bardell

BSA - Genuine but with fake cancel ??
Surely this lot cannot be given a catalog value in the title as I would think it does not apply.

BSA

July 29, 2003 1:57 chas adrion http://home.rochester.rr.com/adrion/
 

cute certificate blooper....
Faked from 384? - I don't think so!

July 29, 2003 David Benson

Bill, got the picture now, yup. it's a phony, never seen it before, have no idea what vintage it is or how much it's worth. If I was guessing I would say around US$10 at the most. See if Chris Ceremuga is around, he is into the later overprints and see what he has to say about some of the sellers later overprints.

David Benson

July 28, 2003 David Benson

Bill, can't see the pic. at the moment. Possibly the forgery is genuine. As a matter of fact I can't remember seeing a forged Poland #1.

David Benson

July 28, 2003 22:06 Bill Claghorn (claghorn1p) http://www.geocities.com/claghorn1p/
 

US #2
D2 I agree. That stamp sure looks like the left margin was added in the scan and there seem to be traces of a removed pen cancel from the scan. Nothing like looking at the stamp in the flesh and with fluid. It seems that the APS expert dipped the stamp to find the minute thin so at least it was looked at. A UV test would be interesting for removed cancel.

July 28, 2003 22:04 Bill Claghorn (claghorn1p) http://www.geocities.com/claghorn1p/
 

Forgery Identification Site

July 28, 2003 David Benson

Bill, not a very good advert for getting certificates. It comes with a clean certificate and yet 2 experts give it the thumbs down from a scan without even looking at the reverse of the stamp.

David Benson

July 28, 2003 Bill Weiss

US #2
Oh yes....about that US #2 that was discussed. Just me 2-cents here, but my offhand opinion is similar to Richards despite what that cert. may say. I don't like the left margin and I really don't like the PAID. I agree with whoever pointed it out, that style paid was not IMO used in the 1847-51 period. Without seeing the stamp "in the flesh" to examine it with a black light and fluid, I can't say about it being cleaned, but the suspect cancel certainly leads to a conclusion of a cleaning. Expert committees make mistakes all the time, so just because a cert. says something is so, doesn't make it so! Someday I plan to write an article showing the SAME stamp with DIFFERENT opinions, both by 2 diff committees and by the SAME committee! I have on hand at the moment a 10cent 1857 with a GOOD 1980s PFC and the same unaltered stamp with a NEW PFC saying "reperfed at right". I have on hand a $2.00 used 1893 with a PSE cert saying "fake cancellation" and a GOOD PFC saying "genuine in all respects", and so it goes. This is a HUGE topic and way too involved to get into in a big way here, but just keep in mind that the #2 may well bear the flaws some of us suspect.

July 28, 2003 Bill Weiss

Various
Have been away for awhile & just checking back in. The coil discussed below looks OK to me and I agree with Ken. I doubt if a faker would have purposely used a device with crooked pins, so I suspect they are just bent as Ken suggests.
Randy Shoemaker of PSE has been invited here and yet I see he hasn't checked in so I may give him a call tomorrow to see if perhaps he's having some problem linking up.
About the Ebay/APS relationship, I tend to think that the folks at APS have honorable intentions. Sure, they absolutely are hoping to gain membership out of the relationship, but I don't see that as a bad thing. They can (as any other organization) use more money to fund whatever - a new building, better expertizing equiptment, etc. I agree with those who are willing to wait and see. Since APS is a non-profit organization, I tend to trust their motives more so than if they were for-profit. Maybe that's silly of me, but I have known, and now know, lots of the folks who have or do run APS including officers as well as employees, and IMO they are generally good, decent, dedicated folks who only want to do well by the organization. That said, I certainly do NOT agree with everything that's done by APS, but this partnership seems a worthwhile thing to me and I await it's unfolding.

July 28, 2003 6 PM Michael Engel <mengel44@aol.com>

Singapore Cover Auction
Belated thanks to those who responded to my question--and said many of the same things I was thinking. Zero feedback, Singapore, claimed lack of knowledge belied by sophisticated choice of scans, "I'm auctioning someone else's collection"....it just doesn't add up.

July 28, 2003 David Benson

Paolo, where your letter is going is easy, Agde, where it was cancelled is another matter. Can't locate it but most probably the spelling has changed. Will google it again later.

David Benson

July 28, 2003 David Benson

Chris, virtually all of the hi value Roos were used on parcel tags for gold bullion shipments. The amount quickly added up as some of the shipments were large amounts and the insurance was the major component of the postage charge. There are still many complete tags available, some with large blocks of the 2 Pound. About 20 years ago I had to give a valuation for museum donation for tax allowance for an old collector. He had about 100 tags, some with as many as 10 2 Pounders.

David Benson

July 28, 2003 Paolo Bagaglia

Jim W-S Thank you again!
In my previous post addressed to you, in the first phrase there is a "not" too much (due to some kind of a "typo"; in fact, despite my foreign forced residence in hostile land -- :-) -- I still, fortunately, manage to think in current Italian where a double negation does NOT confirm but still denies), as you may have already observed.
There is this VERY entertaining website about the days of the French revolution, but it is in Italian. As you might ascertain, there are pretty many events recorded on "17 Luglio 1789" which is just preceding of three days the beginning of the so-called "great fear".
Good continuation, Paolo (gotta crash)
 

July 28, 2003 Paolo Bagaglia

Sveiki! -- We received you second card, and this one from Latvia
(Riga). Thanks for your kind thought! It arrived pretty quickly!!!

Great pictures of Riga you linked (I looked at it yesterday, or so). I also read your Latvia history page but could not find anything but interesting and educating information in there!
We will reciprocate from Italy!
Paolo

July 28, 2003 Jim Whitford-Stark

Paolo
Looks like July 17th to me, 3 days after the fall of the Bastille.

July 28, 2003 sveiki! <philaweb@yahoo.invalid (replace .invalid with .dk)>

Wine...
What can't be found by Google? Georgian semi-sweet wines. {;o)

Bob Haven't received anything yet.

July 28, 2003 Paolo Bagaglia

Thank You, Jim (IO)!
For some reason there was no way I could not make out the writing in those regions.

Now I have the origin and the destination, thanks to you, but what about the date. Would I be incorrect stating 17 July 1789? (not the 14th but still an important date in that tumultuos period).
I read the contents of the cover and, unfortunately, there is not the minimal reference to what was going on in France at that time, just strictly down to business. Almost hopeless, actually.

Now for other kind Gallo-Provençal experts, would you be so kind as give me a clue on rates and on that stamped postal marking?

TIA, Paolo

July 28, 2003 13:05 Ken Srail

486 line pair
Jim, I'm pretty sure the perforations are genuine (assuming the stamp is indeed rotary, which it appears to be from the scan). That sort of "variance" isn't out of the question. I've seen worse... I'd be more concerned that the line is genuine (although nothing there leads me to believe it isn't, I'd be sure to check if I had it in front of me...)

July 28, 2003 Later still Chris sperotti.com
 

Early Australian Sets
J W-S Cool calculator!
I guess usage of a $60 stamp would be dang rare today.
Oh well, will wait for someone to buy me a winning lottery ticket.

Chris - was at Cabela's on Wednesday. Managed not to spend very
much, but only by iron self control. Jeez do they have cool toys there.

July 28, 2003 11.56 am Colin Judd UK (xzephyr) <thejudds@saltsvillage.freeserve.co.uk> http://mysite.freeserve.com/xzephyr_stamps
 

Colin

July 28, 2003 1935 BST Ed.B

Ed

July 28, 2003 Jim Griffith <griffith@dweeb.org> http://album.dweeb.org
 

Jim

July 28, 2003 nomad55

1933 Scott catalog
I bought one in excellent condition at a garage sale Saturday for fifty cents. This was before Scott renumbered everything, so what we call US 1 isn't. Also before full illustrations of US stamps were permitted, so you see a lot of partial frames without vignettes. It must have been a real challenge back then to determine individual varieties using only a text description without a complete pic to look at.

July 28, 2003 Jim Whitford-Stark

And ended up here

July 28, 2003 Jim Whitford-Stark

Paolo
Looks like it started life here

July 28, 2003 Paolo Bagaglia

France 1789 Pre-Adhesives Cover
I would like to have information such as origin, destination, postal rate, eventual postal markings and date, day and month, about this following cover:

front (folded out).

detail of stamped marking on front.

inside

TIA, Paolo
 

July 28, 2003 Jim Whitford-Stark

chris
Probably an underestimate.
A UK 1930 £2 stamp (not that there is one) would have a face value equivalent to about £60 today.
Likewise an Australian £2 stamp

July 28, 2003 Victor Horadam <horadam1@airmail.net>

General
David B. and David P: Thanks for the comments regarding my concerns. It would be a nice lot if it were really for sale with that transaction.

July 28, 2003 Paolo Bagaglia

Christo v.Z. Thank you.
I will keep the image of your Sardinia 4th Issue 40c. stamp as reference and, especially, as a reminder for when I'll have to consult that marcophily/postal history work I mentioned to determine the type of a cancel from Bologna.
Kind regards,
Paolo

July 28, 2003 A little later Chris naked-george-washington.com
 

Early Australia sets
I was working on the Australian inventory and noticed that a number of sets in
the pre-war era seem awful expensive for the high values. Was this because
10 shilling and above stamps were not used for much? I guess the 2 pound stamp
would be the equivalent of about $30 today.

Chris - quietly saving all the high value used current US I can find.

July 28, 2003 Now Chris hot-stamp-pics.com
 

Howdy all.
Been busy and not much time for stamps.
Yesterday, I had to pull a new 20 amp wire through an existing conduit with
wire already in it. To my utter surprise it worked ok. This was to replace a 20 amp
circuit that wore through the insulation right where it entered the junction box.
I think I'm going to rip out the whole thing and do it with burial grade cable and skip the
conduit, which has been a pain since day one.

Still working on my inventory. Up over 16,000 different stamps now.

Chris

July 28, 2003 Christo van Zyl

PaoloYou're welcome to use the image!

July 28, 2003 Paolo Bagaglia

Christo v. Z. You're welcome! I hope it will nicely fit in your 'SON' cancels collection.
Regarding the French cover: yes, I wet-cleaned it with with a watery solution with extremly low percentage in volume of NaClO (~ three drops in about a litre of hand warm water).

Disclaimer> Anyone: Do NOT try this 'at home' on covers with adhesives.

Regarding the US stamp discussed below, I do not have a clue as to what these are (indicated zones 1, 2, 3 on a section of the stamp, whose printed parts were partially disfigured for the 'rights on picture') , but can speculate.
If you don't like I linked part of your stamp, I will take image down immediately.
Paolo
 

July 28, 2003 Bob Hohertz

I went over your text and picked a few nits last night. I sent a copy to the e-mail address I have for you on yahoo.dk. If that isn't correct, you need to give me a better one.

July 28, 2003 05:15 Jim Watson

Good Morning, Everyone!
Today's dated postal history item from is a registered cover from British Honduras to United States in 1922. This is still a relatively undeveloped part of the world.

July 28, 2003 Richard Frajola

Alison You are quite correct that not all faults can be spotted from just a high resolution scan. I obviously missed the thin spot on the #2. However, in spite of the APS certificate, I would retain my original opinion regarding the additional problems that I saw in the scan.

A scan is one of many tools that can be used by expert groups in examining stamps. In fact, I recently spoke with the new Chairman of the PF about utilizing scans for both in-house expert work and for sending along to experts who can't make it to New York. High resolution scans can show manipulation that is much more difficult to see with the naked eye even when aided by a magnifying glass.

July 28, 2003 sveiki!

Text Nitpicking
Bob Looking forward to see the result. {:o) The "grabbing" of the cursor is due to the redirect page that comes inbetween. If you press the small arrow at the "back" button you'll see the history of your visits. Then you'll either choose the page necessary to get back (to skip the redirect page) or you simply right click the "back" button twice with a very short interval.

Jim W. I'll try to make some more paragraphs. {:o)

July 28, 2003 Dave P

David, I agree with you on both counts. I do think people worry too much, and (without being an apologist for them) I think much of the criticism levied against Paypal is unjustified, although I agree that when things go wrong their customer service sucks. My only concern would be selling a high ticket item to a new or low feedback buyer paying by Paypal or credit-card where the whole aim of the transaction may be fraudulent. This is much more a concern to the sellers of high value electrical equipment etc. than stamp sellers I think.

Re that auction, again I agree, the sophistication of the auction belies the innocent "I don't really understand this stuff" tone.

July 28, 2003 David Benson

Dave, wouldn't matter anyway, Paypal protection is only for inter USA transactions. There are very few chargebacks and I have never heard of any stamp related anyway. Some people worry too much. They shouldn't be using Ebay.

The seller in Singapore worries me for a different reason. Newly registered and a valuable lot with a hidden reserve. Professionaly described. If it used some sort of escrow then it would receive high bids.

July 28, 2003 Dave P

Paypal
There is something odd here. Victor is wary of using Paypal because as a buyer it gives him no protection, yet others on this board are wary of taking Paypal as a seller because it gives the buyer the right to a chargeback without recourse. Obviously both views cannot be correct!
My understanding (and I am very happy to be corrected) is that for the majority of transactions if a buyer commences charge-back proceedings the seller is going to lose out, regardless of the rights and wrongs of the matter. That is not a criticism of Paypal, the same thing applies to anybody taking credit-card payments where there is no signed voucher. Where Paypal does give a limited protection for the seller is in USA domestic transactions, providing proof of delivery is obtained. Am I wrong in my understanding?

July 27, 2003 Victor Horadam <horadam1@airmail.net>

General
Michael Engel: Probably very high chance of bad transaction. Since he will only accept Paypal, I don't see where the buyer would have any protection whatsoever! I have never used Paypal, but I don't think it is like using a regular credit card. If he would accept a credit card, it might be some protection. The few times I have argued a charge on my regular CC, it has been dismissed in my favor - but I don't think that can be done with Paypal.

July 27, 2003 06:36 Jim Watson

Text Nitpicking
Paul,
My immediate response was the need for smaller paragraphs. Such large paragraphs are very difficult to read on a computer (on paper, too)

July 27, 2003 Alison Ruttenberg (eddiephilatelic)

Richard Frajola's last post and the fact is that even an expert cannot spot problems from a high resolution scan
I might be the person that Richard Frajola referred to in his last post. He created quite a flap on the ebay board and his own board about This auction for a Scott #2 with blue PAID cancel. His exact words about the lot (after a sarcastic quip about me personally) was: "Hit enlarge and you should notice that the left margin of stamp has been added. Also suspect it has had a manuscript cancel removed and fake "Paid" cancel added." Magnoliastamps then made several posts that he thought that the cancel was definately a fake since that cancel is not seen on the 1847 issue. Because of these posts, I felt compelled to make an addition to the item description and bring to the attention of the high bidder. The high bidder sent it in for an APS Cert. Cert results: NO mention of an added margin. NO mention of a washed off pen cancel. It proclaimed the stamp as "United States Scott No. 2 used blue PAID genuine." The cert does mention a thin, that is so small and shallow that neither I nor the high bidder noticed it. The high bidder does not have a scanner so he could not scan and email the cert to me. He did make a color copy of it and sent it to me. He wrote Facsmilie Cert across it so as to make sure that it was understood that what he was sending me was the photocopy and not the original cert. However, if anyone has any doubts, it can be checked with APS. Here is the Scan of the Cert Hopefully, the 150dpi scan of the photocopy of the cert is good enough that you can tell that it is the same stamp.

July 27, 2003 David Benson

Something interesting just happened on Ebay snitch chat.

A newbie came along and mentioned that he had tried to report a stamp fraud and had had no reply from Ebay and asked what to do. I was going to contact him but had some important things to do first. When I came back from my coffee break I found his post had been zapped.

Luckily I remembered his Ebay ID and contacted him and asked him to come here. If your out there " thundercastle " come in, now is the time to ask,

David Benson

July 27, 2003 Bob H.

website
Printed it out, Paul - will look it over after dinner. By the way, your website "grabs" the cursor and will not let me back out to this page once there...

July 27, 2003 sveiki!

Text Nitpicking
Bob, Jim Thank you very much for the fast response. I've changed the things you've spotted. I'm working on a separate twxt for the history of Riga. Bob You're welcome to give me critique on the text I've linked to.

July 27, 2003 Jim Whitford-Stark

Paul
My tired brain could only take the first column.
So far it looks like you have used die for "the".
Marry widow for "stolen from the inhabitants".
Polish-swedish war, not wat.
Don't start sentance with a numeral, 50-70% should be Fifty to seventy percent.

July 27, 2003 Bob Hohertz

website
Paul, I took a quick look, and noticed that you move into "die" several times for "the". Did not read all of it - but you also have a few more commas in there than I'd use - but that is primarily a matter of style. Do you want me to give you a real critique? I sure owe you that much. I can download it and look at it over the evening if you would like.

July 27, 2003 sveiki!

And yes! ...my website is still under construction! (lots of dead links etc.). {:o)

July 27, 2003 sveiki! <philaweb@yahoo.invalid (replace .invalid with .dk)>

Text Nitpicking
A&S Been active - again! {:o) If someone would have a look at the text I've been working on for my website - here. The text is not supposed to end up there on the front page, but that's where I've placed it for the time being to see if everything works OK. Feedback is appreciated. {:o)

July 27, 2003 Jim Whitford-Stark

roger
I'm not sure of the point of your last link.
Are you saying that bad forgeries should be removed and good ones allowed to stay?

July 27, 2003 Richard Frajola

Roger H The "endorsement" systems used by ebay including feedback, "power seller" logo and verified status are all dangerous in my opinion as they give a false sense of competency.

July 27, 2003 Roger Heath

Richard -
I agree that the purpose will be to gradually upgrade the overall business atmosphere on Ebay.
If a consumer takes their car to an auto repair shop that is licensed by the State to conduct business, the public expects a certain level of competance from that shop. If one is paying for "genuine" OM parts and only discovers later the parts are cheaper seconds, there is a complaint process via the licensing board, if no agreement could be reached with the repair business. In Ebay's situation, it is promoting and advocating certain sellers, who, due to $ volume only, have reached an "untouchable" status, and don't appear to worry about any sanctions from Ebay. I hope that the obviously bad items will disappear over time leaving room for the truely honest sellers to compete with one another. This example should be an easy call by an APS Committee, and Ebay will benefit by the disappearance of such items.

Roger

 

July 27, 2003 Richard Frajola

ebay fakes and misdescribed
I do not think it is the intent of APS/ebay to shut down individual listings of mis-described and fake material at all. These mistakes happen. I spotted several errors of omission regarding obvious quality defects unmentioned in 19th century stamp lots offered by one of yesterday's posters. Doubt if such things will get a response if reported to the watch group.

However, I think and hope that they will be looking at patterns of deliberate deception and fraudulent behavior.

And yes, no way to say that something is genuine from a scan but often easy to tell something is wrong, or a forgery, from the same scan with virtually 100% accuracy.

July 27, 2003 sveiki!

OT: Exotic Wine
Just want to ask if anyone here has had any experiences with wine from exotic places? {:o)
I've bought some bottles of redwine, white wine from Georgia (a country in the Caucasus mountains) and from Moldova. I prefer semisweet wines - they're more enjoyable than the dry and acid heavy wines. The Georgian redwines I've bought are called "Kindzmarauli" and "Alazani", the first one being my favorite for the moment. The Georgian white wine is called "Tsinandali", which I haven't tasted yet. The Moldavian redwine is called "Zemfira". Does any of you have any experience with these wines?

Actually, I've gotten a bit of interest in wines since I've tasted both the "Kindzmarauli" and the "Zemfira". Does anyone know of the status of semisweet wines? (are they common - how are they regarded amongst people with interest for wines?).
The wines are not made of known grape sorts like Cabernet etc. The grape sorts are all local and I've never heard of them before - such as lidiya (just to mention one).

July 27, 2003 Mark Bardell

Re : More fakes
John -

I'm no expert in US, but it seems to me as if the "IMPERFS" are actually cut round stamps stuck to new backing paper ( certainly the 5c, can't quite make out the other one, but probably the same ).

Mark.

July 27, 2003 John

More fakes
well once again we have our friend in Fla.with a woderful page of goodies...Can you find the fakes.look here

July 27, 2003 Bob Hohertz

Isn't it true that eBay retains the right to end any auction for any reason they choose, and the same for suspending a member? If so, it will take a very creative lawyer to "put an end to" that...

July 27, 2003 Christo van Zyl

Paolo VB I have looked at your scan of the old French cover - Iit looks like you have cleaned it up a bit? Re me earlier posting on the Bologna cancel, cds = son, sorry!

July 27, 2003 Bill Dempwolf

Bill

July 27, 2003 12:16 pm Steve Taylor (aka philcomp) http://www.timeblaster.com/tbeindex.shtml
 

Bargain
The snipers certainly took care of the bargain.

July 27, 2003 11:07 Greg Olmstead

eBay/APS
In light of the new eBay/APS "partnership" and after reading numerous posts on this board and the eBay chat board I feel compelled to make some worthless observations of my own. First of all the liason between eBay and the APS was done solely for the benefit of eBay and the APS. The notion that it was done for the benefit of eBay members or to promote the hobby is a nice but naive thought. The APS has already made a statement about their intentions to promote the hobby when they instituted the policy of only expertizing philatelic items for their own membership and to hell with everyone else.
The current opinions seem to be that eBay may decide to terminate any ongoing auction if so advised by the APS. This would throw one of the most fundamental principles since the inception of expertization right out the window. That principle is that philatelic items can only be expertized by examining the actual item. Although philatelic items are routinely expertized on the eBay chat board and this site by viewing images on a computer monitor the fact is that there are no accredited expertizing agencies which will issue a certificate of authenticity by viewing an image on a computer monitor. I certainly acknowledge that some fakes may be very obvious but I'm talking about a principle, not individual examples.
The idea that association with the APS somehow bestows legitimacy is absurd. Recently a ring of big time stamp dealer crooks was brought to justice. Some of these crooks were longtime members in goodstanding of the APS. They were brought to justice with no help from the APS.
eBay is already on thin ice in some areas. It's continued ban on the sale of Iraqi items, still in place as of this morning, which "prohibits all sales of items of Iraqi origin that were removed from Iraq after August 6, 1990" is in direct contradiction with the May 22 United Nations Security Council resolution 1483 lifting the embargo on Iraq and similar actions by the U.S. Treasury Department. Before the nitpicking starts, I'm talking about a 6 year old stamp with a picture of Saddam, not a 3000 year old vase from the Baghdad Museum.
If the the eBay/APS relationship results in many of the speculated actions by eBay it will only be a matter of time before some clever seller with money for an attorney puts an end to the nonsense. This relationship may well prove as useful as other recent improvements like creating an entire separate category for Albania.

July 27, 2003 1030 am Michael Engel <mengel44@aol.com>

Singapore auction, no feedback
Purely theoretical, since this is not my area, but what do you think the risk factor is on an auction like this?

July 27, 2003 Bob Hohertz <General>

Will pass your compliment on to David. He gave the talk to our stamp club last meeting, and passed around one of the oddest collection of covers one can imagine - most of the stamps on them are not listed in Scott (though probably are in other catalogs).

July 27, 2003 Christo van Zyl

Kind regards, Christo

July 27, 2003 12:38 PM Steve Taylor (aka philcomp) http://www.timeblaster.com/http://www.timeblaster.com/tbeindex.shtml
 

Bargain
For anyone interested, there is a copy of Vols III/IV of White's Encyclopedia of the Colors of U.S. Stamps about to go for a bargain price on eBay.

July 27, 2003 09:42 Jim Watson

Jim W-S,
Your guess sounds like a winner to me! I've included it as such.

July 27, 2003 Victor Horadam <horadam1@airmail.net>

Jim: Fantastic, normally I don't like athletes to repeat wins over and over - but that guy deserves whatever he can get, just because of all he had to go through to achieve it. The chemotherapy for testiclar cancer is one of the harder regimens to tolerate.

July 27, 2003 sveiki!

Trivia
Knud-Erik Det var godt du kunne lide postkortene. {:o)

Actually, there are two more "eye-catching" things about the postcard I linked to in previous post. It's correct that a "supposed to be mailed 1902 postcard" has a postage stamp affixed that was issued 1940.

July 27, 2003 Jim Whitford-Stark

Vic

Looks like Lance just won #5!

July 27, 2003 Jim Whitford-Stark

jimbo
At a guess --
Seremban FMS (Federated Malay States)

July 27, 2003 Victor Horadam <horadam1@airmail.net>

NOIP: I received a surprise yesterday when I went to the local Borders bookstore to buy a coin magazine. In addition to "Coins", in the same area (where I have never seen a stamp magazine before) there was a joint Coin/Stamp introductory magazine, I presume from Krause. The editorial was from William Youngblood, a paper money dealer, and included a multipage article on how to assess covers and cover collecting. Actually quite in teresting. Hopefully it is not a one-shot, and is a periodical.

July 27, 2003 06:16 Jim Watson

Paul,
As usual, you've provided some good data to add to the cover story. Thanks, thanks, thanks! I've updated the page appropriately.

July 27, 2003 6.01am PT Paul Barsdell <paul.b@webone.com.au>

Paul

July 27, 2003 05:25 Jim Watson

Good Morning, Everyone!
Today's dated postal history item from is a registered cover from Negri Sembilan to Fiji in 1938. You don't see one of these every day!
In my wanderings I found this dispatch schedule for the Fiji post office which lists service to Natuvu on Tuesdays and Wednesday mornings. More than you wanted to know! ;-)

July 27, 2003 05.25 Knud-Erik (knuden)

July 27, 2003 05:11 Bill Claghorn (claghorn1p) http://www.geocities.com/claghorn1p/
 

Forgery Identification Site

July 27, 2003 04:42 AM Jim Lawler <jlawler@comteck.com>

Jim L.

July 27, 2003 sveiki!

Trivia
Please mention the obvious "eye catchers" with this object! {:o)

July 27, 2003 sveiki!

Good Morning/Day/Afternoon/Evening!
Well, I'm ready with some photos from Riga. {:o)
If you enter here and click the apppropriate link then you will see some very nice photos from Riga.

July 27, 2003 Paolo Bagaglia

David B. Thanks for your opinion. I agree that that item looks freshly printed; in any case, much later than 1851.
Though I am often perplexed when evidence appears to be too evident.
I wonder how the bidding activity would have evolved if that was genuine... it might have even fetched less on eBay. I wonder too if this demography crisis will affect the number of those born every minute and if those won't buy demography up, as well.



I don't know what the eBay stamp police would have done. I actually don't even know where they are if they can be located in our solar system.

These and those are further confirmations to Werner Heisenberg's indeterminacy principle.
Paolo
 

July 27, 2003 David Benson

Paolo, looks like the inks still wet. There's one born every minute.

Now here's where it becomes interesting, if you had seen that listed, would you have reported it to the Ebay Stamp Police who would have forwarded it on to the APS inspection team, what would they have said and done.

David Benson

July 27, 2003 Paolo Bagaglia

Various
David B. I agree about judging some particular items from pictures and/or medium/low resolution scanned images.
Regarding the Tuscany example you brought, I would like to add this one: I don't have a clue as to why so many people bid on it. I think the winning bidder resides in Italy and, from such party, I cannot see the logic on enjoying of seller's refund policy after APS examination. It's gonna cost a lot, shipping costs included.

On potential posters on this board: the more the better, of course.
Regarding the silent majority, I will bring the example of my uncle (1928 class) who initiated me to stamp collecting. Specialist and dealer of Italy Republic stamps, he has also been collecting USA postage stamps, as an aside, for several years. He neither speaks English nor uses the computer.
Good continuation, Paolo

 

July 26, 2003 John@ Magnolia Stamps

Anyone up for a good laugh! look here..Now if he even gets a bid on that I'm going to know that I'm rich.

July 26, 2003 10:20 JDS <shuzilla@hotmail.com>

Errors
You answered my question precisely, Bill. I was unaware of the new Scott policy. Thanks.

In fact, the sheet got a PF certificate and was then broken up into blocks and pairs and those got separate PFC's. The PF went Pontius Pilate on the error status, only furnishing a dry description of how the color was changed at the BEP. So it is left up to the beholder to decide if it is a true color error... or dirty ink. Which is about a two-decimal-place difference in value, I guess.

I wanted to test how a block would sell. The block I have consigned to auction was relegated to the EFO section with a poor description that won't attract any viewers, no photo, and the PFC was not even noted! I think I will have to accept the inevitable disappointment when it sells, unless I withdraw it and anger the auctioneer... a situations where I thought I was doing him a favor in consigning and he felt he was doing me a favor in accepting it for sale.

July 26, 2003 Brian R

Bill C No concern here. I said more please (posters).

July 26, 2003 Bill Weiss

Errors
Dave;
You are correct and Scott has now started to list, and will continue to list, errors resulting from freak occurances, such as foldovers or perf shifts with the thinking being that it's not how the error was created that matters, it's the resulting error. Using that criteria, assuming you could get a letter from the printer of the stamp you speak of explaining how the color change occured, it should be (IMO) be considered an error. Absent such a letter though, then it should NOT be considered an error simply because then ANYONE who knows how to alter/change a color by any artifical means could do so and presto, a major error. For example, some colors can be easily altered/changed by simply exposing them to sunlight. Some such altered-color/omitted-color "errors" have actually been listed by Scott and pronounced genuine by expert committees until evidence was produced to show how the so-called errors were created.
This might be more "opinion" than you wanted, but I hope it helps.

July 26, 2003 7:40 JDS <shuzilla@hotmail.com>

Datz
Thank you, Bill. I have an EFO which is difficult to catagorize, if one categorizes major errors other than by appearance. For instance, the unique Red Cross stamp missing the red was caused by a fold-over. Some consider such a stamp to be a freak because the missing color did not come about from the omission of one or more steps of production, but instead was the result of a freak accident.

Datz considers a stamp to be a major error if it meets the criteria in appearance, regardless of the process which created it. Thus, if a foldover is severe enough to leave stamp(s) imperforate or if a color is shifted so far over that an entire column is left missing that color, a freak event will have produced a major error.

I wanted to get his opinion on a sheet of stamp with part of the design printed in the wrong color, having the appearance of a major error but was not created by the wrong color ink being fed into the press. It happened when a cleaning agent got into all the lithographed colors. While each color appears slightly pale from the contamination, one color was chemically changed into another color; the ink was changed from dark blue to a pure gray in the press prior to impression.

I was hoping to get an opinion from Datz on whether he thought this color error was a major error like the blue Columbian or just a freak. What would your opinion be, and why?

July 26, 2003 18:58 Bill Claghorn (claghorn1p) http://www.geocities.com/claghorn1p/
 

This is a Public Board, NO?
Dave ("philatarium") Brian R Bill Weiss et al This board is no secret. There is no password. A Google search for StampChat gives this board as the top number 1 search. This is a public board. Therefore anyone can read or post. What is the concern?

July 26, 2003 John@Magnolia Stamps

In agreement
Darn I'm good 4 of the biggies all said the same thing,Not a Z grill ! I'm amazed!

July 26, 2003 Brian R

That newbie you help today, just might end up as your dealer, a few years from now.

July 26, 2003 Bill Weiss

Publicity/Linn's
Dave; your comments read my mind! My immediate thought was that you would open up this board to LOTS of collectors who may be more "novice" than intermediate - which doesn't necessarily mean they can't contribute - but I just don't know if that's what you would accomplish or not. I too will be curious to see what others think about this subject.
Personally, I like helping novice collectors when my time permits because it saves them from making expensive errors in buying and so long as they are appreciative of the time, I encourage them.

July 26, 2003 Jim Lawler

evening bookmark

July 26, 2003 Bill Weiss

DATZ
Write Datz at POB 402, Loveland/CO, 80537. You could ask a question about US errors here - I may be able to help as I have expertized them for PSE and have sold them for decades.

July 26, 2003 5:45 JDS <shuzilla@hotmail.com>

US Errors
Can anyone tell me how to get in touch with Steven Datz in regard to a technical question about errors, either by letter, e-mail or phone? Of course I am just assuming that since he writes and edits a book on US errors that he is a recognized expert. Thank you.

David

July 26, 2003 17:46 Dave ("philatarium")

publicity
Bill, you did read my post correctly. I was thinking it would be good to promote this board elsewhere.

However, once I read your comments, it made me stop and think:

- How widely known do we want this board?
- Would it really get a lot busier?
- If it did, would it affect the quality of the dialog that we already have?
- Would it make it better? or worse?

- Is it correct to think that this board is more-or-less at the "intermediate" level of collector?
- Would a reference in Linn's likely bring in other participants at that level? or higher? (that's good, right?) or lower? (Is that good?)

Let me pose those questions to the board at large and see what people's thoughts are.

Everyone?

July 26, 2003 Bill Weiss

LINN'S
DAVE; If I understand what you said about Linn's - you would like for them to publish information about this site? Is what you hope to accomplish is to gain lots of new board participants? I am pretty sure I could get Linn's to do a story about this site, or, if you prefer to submit it as a "letter to the editor" as a follow-up to Jim G.'s letter, that's great too. I have written several articles for Linn's in the past and actually have another in the works right now and I'm pretty sure they would be receptive to your idea. Let me know which approach you favor.

July 26, 2003 Bill Weiss

Various
CHRISTY; I am 95% certain that grill is NOT a "Z" grill. You need not worry about counting points or measuring the grill - to identify the "Z" grill easily you merely need to determine if the grill points are horizontal instead of vertical as it's the only grill with that trait. THere are other small problems with that stamp anyway so as a #91 ("E" grill) it's worth perhaps 15% of Scott.
APS/Ebay; I see this "merger" as likely a good thing, but at this point it's much too early to know.
I am pleased that thus far there are all positive views about Randy Shoemaker. I will invite him on Monday. If he joins us, he will immediately be among the top experts in US stamps that we will have on this board and I will go out on a limb and say that he has expertized more US stamps in the past 15 years than anyone alive. About the only two areas that I might know as much or more than him (in stamps) is fancy cancellations and grills (and possibly printing varieties) but other than that, he's got it all over me - as does Frajola in covers!
 

July 26, 2003 16:33 Ken Srail

APS involvement
Will APS get approval (as a recognized "expert") to circumvent eBay's strict privacy and auction interference policies? For instance, how about giving APS the capability of contacting all bidders, even in private auctions, while the auction is underway or after it has ended, when they can conclusively determine the item being offered was not properly represented?

July 26, 2003 16:22 Ken Srail

Washington with E grill
The ridges look vertical to me. 99% likely it's an E-grill. With the obvious faults visible in the scan, I wouldn't expect a bid of more than $30-$40 for it.

July 26, 2003 David Benson

Brian,

absolutley correct, see what happens after the change then make comments. If it can get rid of shysters like Addie then they have my vote.

David Benson

July 26, 2003 Brian R

Personally, I'll wait to see what happens, before I start complaining, for everyhting I've heard so far, can only be considered a positive.

July 26, 2003 15:36 Dave ("philatarium") <dfrick@pacificanalytics.com>

Randy Shoemaker/PSE, more participants, etc.
I would be thrilled to have more and more conversation among knowledgeable stamp people, and the more knowledgable the better, so please consider Randy and others invited.

One of the reasons that I've pushed hard about participants remaining civil under all circumstances here is so that we would all feel comfortable inviting other stamp collectors.

Some of the most knowledgeable stamp people out there have very limited computer and internet experience. I know from personal experience several Japan experts who just don't have the knowledge, confidence or inclination to get an eBay account in order to post there, and for whom Yahoo also was too complicated and a bit dicey to use as a discussion forum. (That's one of the reasons I wanted to keep this site really easy to use, although that means it lacks some of the bells and whistles that more experienced participants would like.)

(And, indeed, the two most knowledgeable Japan stamp experts in the US that I know don't have computers at all, or even telephone anwering machines!)

I do not think it is appropriate to expect people to have to acquire a thick skin in order to be able to participate on a stamp discussion board, and I think only Richard's board and this one do not have such a defacto requirement.

Also, in doing a little market research a couple of months ago to determine if a specialized board or a threaded board would be preferable, many people said that they liked reading about topics outside of their collecting area or expertise, and I agree with that. So I'm happy to have some specialized discussions take place on here. In fact, if anyone wants to collect the posts on a particular topic, I will be happy to set up special pages to paste them and put links to them. (They need to be copied and pasted with software that recognizes html (like Word, Netscape Composer, FrontPage, etc.), so if you're a prospective volunteer, just let me know and we can do a test run to see how it works.)

Additionally, I did post this site a few weeks ago with Joseph Luft's site, but, at that time, it looked like he had not done any updates for several months. I am also thinking about sending a letter to Linn's, following up on Jim Griffith's letter, letting them know about this site, and see if they publish it. Since it's a non-commercial site, maybe they will.

So, please invite others whose background and experience would be beneficial, and we all can learn more. As Greg said so well, the more knowledgable people you have at the table, the better the conversation.

July 26, 2003 David Benson

Paolo, your other example, the Tuscany fake that realised $407 may be a better example. Anyone with an inkling of knowledge should have known that it was a fake even though it stated " guaranteed by seller ". I presume that if that been sent to Safe Harbor and forwarded to APS committee they should have immediately zapped it stating that it had to be sold only with certificate.

David Benson

July 26, 2003 1535 Clark (reperf)

Washington with Z grill??
Oops!

Siegel Auctions Z grill

July 26, 2003 1532 Clark (reperf)

Washington with Z grill??
Counting the points, I get 13x17, probably an E grill (Scott 90), perhaps split. Perhaps there is a trace on the right edge of the back. With regard to how it would perform on eBay, probably much better with a certificate, even if an E grill. According to the Scott Catalogue, the tips of the grill points should be horizontal on a Z grill rather than vertical as on an E grill. Perhaps an expert here can confirm my opinion. Here is a Siegel Auctions web page showing a Z grill.

In my opinion, the realized price increment would exceed the cost of the cert, unless of course, the stamp has other major defects or a fake grill. In that case, at least, everyone would know what was being offered for sale. I would not really want to buy an expensive grill on eBay without a certificate unless I really trusted the dealer to refund the cost of the stamp, shipping and the certificate if not as described.

July 26, 2003 David Benson

Paolo, both writing at the same time, another reason, second thoughts by APS censors,

David Benson

July 26, 2003 David Benson

Jim, it is a strange arrangement. It sounds like that if a listing is zapped because the APS Police have decreed that it needs a certificate isn't going to work as a certificate is going to cost more than most of the material offered.

Most material cannot be ascertained if it is OK or bad from the scan, it has to be examined in the flesh, face and reverse.

The item that Christo lnked to is a perfect exampple. There have been 3 different views about it. One said that in his opinion (mine) that the ink on the piece did not match the ink on the stamp and therefore the stamp did not originate. That is definitely a close up inspection required of the actual item. The second thought that it is OK as the paper of the stamp is thick and that is what caused the variance as well as deep embossing on the stamp which means that it hasn't been lying in an album for over 100 years. The 3rd. surmises that the cancel may be fake and added to the piece. Three varying views, who knows who is right without close inspection (unless the fake cancel can be proven). If the item was listed and there were complaints, would the listing be pulled and a certificate needed. If so what certificate. Only specific Italian certificates are recognised worldwide for Sardinia.

IMO the APS should handle the forgery/fake/photocopier problem and stick to US stamps only.

David Benson

July 26, 2003 Paolo Bagaglia <bagaglia@wanadoo.nl>

Knud-Erik sorry to read about your problems. I hope all will settled down for the best of the ways. I owe you a symbolic price, by the way! (I never forget about anyhting, don't worry ;-)

Christo v. Z.
I just found a couple of postmarks wich share the BIG size year date '62'. The cancel on your stamp is likely genuine (so I take back what I wrote earlier) but I must take deference to David B. (for whom I have the highest respect) who noted some discrepancies in the ink colour of the cancel.

No problem though, the #16F (40c. verimilion rose) just happens to be valued miserable Euro 35,00 in my catalogue. Please consider myself as a possible buyer of your item for 50% catalogue value (my e-mail address is above).

Regardig the modest France page, sorry (and I am kind of happy) you did not get to read the antics I wrote in French about the item
here,
you can see it here (I hope).
Best, Paolo Bagaglia

July 26, 2003 john@ magnolia stamps

John

July 26, 2003 Jim Whitford-Stark

Judging by what has been described, it seems as if eBay is going to act like the police waiting for a serial killer to strike again before they have enough information to arrest.
It's pretty darned obvious from the pile of work conducted by George and SCADS who the major culprits already are, without awaiting further confirmation by a "prestigious" external arbitrator.

July 26, 2003 David Benson

Alison & Christo, looks like it just a matter and wait to see what happens. If it gets rid of the bad guys then good but not if it impacts on ordinary sellers.

David Benson

July 26, 2003 Christo van Zyl

In exchange for its service to ebay, APS woyuld ask ebay for a high level of visibility among 60 million users. EG. ebay could make APEX services more accessible to its stamp buyers and and sellers. Ebay could publicise the APS as ebay's philatelic advisor and promote APS membership.

APS also assessing the value of an APS site on ebay through which their members could sell on consignment much the same as they do through the APS stamp store.
To me it looks like APS wants to increase its membership numbers, especially the international ones. Therebyt expanding their services and thus generating more and mnore income.

July 26, 2003 Alison Ruttenberg

APS getting paid
David: Good question, is APS doing this for the "good" of the hobby, or are they getting a fee from ebay? Any APS members who want to pursue this, I would be curious as to the answer.

July 26, 2003 David Benson

Alison, only one small question left, how does the APS get paid or is it honorary.

David Benson

July 26, 2003 David Benson

Alison, I get, shoot first, ask questions later,

David Benson

July 26, 2003 Alison Ruttenberg

Time Factor
David: Forgot to answer about the time factor: I gathered from the conversation yesterday is that ebay and APS are primarily looking for a pattern of bad behavior (Riny, Percy C. and sellers refusing to refund when buyer obtains bad cert). Therefore, it does not really matter if the auction ended before APS makes the determination. If there are several complaints or a pattern of complaints about a seller that are sustained by the APS committee then disciplinary action is going to be taken against the seller.

July 26, 2003 Alison Ruttenberg

APS Ebay Partership regarding misdescribed lots
David: I think that you stated it correctly. It is like the Nazi listings, they will get zapped first, then the seller can appeal and have the listing reinstated if the appeal is won or a cert if produced. What is better about this procedure, than the procedure for Nazi items, is that it is an independent committee at APS (suppossedly independent of ebay and having no conflict of interest as well as the requisite expertise) who is making the decision that a lot is a misdescribed forgery or altered stamp.

July 26, 2003 Christo van Zyl

Washington with Z grill??
Would anybody here be able to confirm if this is Scott 85E (USA, Type A28, 12 c black Washington). It is grilled. Using the go-nogogauge of Slingshot venus, the size of the grill appears to conform. I also count 17 points down and at least 13 across. These link to the front and back of the stamp. If my Identification is correct, any suggestions on what I should start it on ebay for? $1? Or is there just too much of this type of material around, to expect anything from selling this stamp?
 

July 26, 2003 David Benson

Alison, let me get this right, nothing will be done until a query goes to Safe Harbor, then it is sent to a group at APS who will make a decision if there is a reason to cancel the listing. If yes, then the listing is zapped whether there are bids or not. Seems as if Big Brother has taken over. What about the time factor,

David Benson

July 26, 2003 Alison Ruttenberg

Brian: Complaints made to safe harbor will be forwarded to the APS committee to examine the auction and give an opinion back to ebay. Safe Harbor will take appropriate action based upon the opinion the APS committee is able to give.

July 26, 2003 Brian R

ebay/aps
I wondering how the questionable auctions will be identified. Surely, aps/ebay won't be trolling the listings looking for them. Will they have a special routing for complaints? I hope they don't expect the phenominal farce , known as safe harbor, to some how be the way.

July 26, 2003 Alison Ruttenberg

Selling Forgeries and Altered Stamps
According to Dan Neary, the executive I spoke to yesterday, the sale of properly described forgeries and reprints (recognized as legitimate philatelic articles by the APS -- details to be determined later) are OK to list. It is also OK to sell reperfed, altered, cleaned or repaired stamps, so long as the alterations are clearly described. It is against ebay policy to KNOWING sell altered stamps without describing the alterations (ie Percy C); thus, if someone makes a mistake, there will be no disciplinary action but the mistake will have to be corrected if the stamp is relisted.

July 26, 2003 11:28 Bill Claghorn (claghorn1p) http://www.geocities.com/claghorn1p/
 

Forgery Identification Site

July 26, 2003 Christo van Zyl

RF I don't have a problem with the stamp anymore, I would now just like to be certain re the cancel. By the way, what would the Cat No of this stamp be (I only have Scotts classic specialized, a 1995 Bolaffi).

July 26, 2003 11:09 am Steve Taylor (aka philcomp) http://www.timeblaster.com/tbeindex.shtml
 

Here is a chart of the data.

July 26, 2003 Jim Whitford-Stark http://www.iomoon.com
 

Dave P
The easiest way of recognizing the De La Rue is the shape of the top perf on the left and right edges.
It is usually needle sharp compared to Waterlow and Bradbury Wilkinson.

July 26, 2003 Richard Frajola

Christo As I offered to someone else yesterday in the reverse, if you send that stamp into be expertized, I will pay for the cost of certificate if it comes back other than genuine. I am totally convinced that it is genuine.

July 26, 2003 Christo van Zyl

Anybody tell me why this Tvl Anglo Boer War cover is generating so much interest?

Is it the travel permit or the Down TPO cancel. I never thoughh this would go this high.

July 26, 2003 Christo van Zyl

Sardinina Stamp
I am posting another link of the BOLOGNA2
stamp with the possible fake cancel. I have scanned it out of the stock page holder on a black background and at 600 dpi. The image should be quite large when it is displayed on screen (download siaze is about 90 kb). Would like to see the discussion on this - it is quite intriguing to me that the most experienced guys her (e.g. DB and Paolo) has picked up that the stamp might not have originated on that particular piece. My attention was drawn to the stamp because it is has such a nice SON!! Shows me how much I have to learn.

July 26, 2003 Dave P

I no longer have my old SG concise, so i am not sure if the illustrations have changed. However IMO the illustrations in the current concise for both the Tudor and Edward crown watermarks are less accurate than in my 2000 Part One which seems a little odd! In the concise the lettering and crown shape of the Tudor don't look quite right, and the Edward crown shows one "R" without the tail (so it appears to be a "P"). I agree that the layout of the Tudor crown looks odd too. The watermarks did change over the years, and as the frames became worn over time missing cliches can be found, and substute cliches with the wrong style crown. I have seen an article on this (it may have been in a GBPS journal), but as usual cannot locate it when I want to.

One other factor which affects the ease of determining watermarks on used stamps is how they were treated. If they were soaked and heavily pressed while drying some watermarks seem to almost disappear - I assume this is not limited to Wildings.
My problem at present is not with Wildings but with castles, the watermark is usually easy (though no inverteds unfortunately), but I have great difficulty in separating the printings, often there is only 25% I can be absolutely sure of. The De La Rue castles must be some of the most frequently mis-identified GB stamps both on and off Ebay. I certainly would not spend a lot of money on them without a London cert.

July 26, 2003 Jim Whitford-Stark

Gód dæg eall.
Many thanks christo.
Dave P
Did you check watermark illustrations in SG?

July 26, 2003 Alison Ruttenberg

New Code of Coduct and Riny's fake surprises from the attic
David: I agree that the system could become unworkable, but so far it has not been tested. I think that Roger should give it a test by actually reporting that Riny Swiss auction. Same complaint process as before (which Dan Neary at ebay yesterday acknowledged that they would receive from people like Roger) -- except now they will forward the complaint to the APS and not just say they have no expertise to evaluate the complaint about the auction. Roger: you should give the ebay number of the forgery, the ebay number and seller name where he/she purchased the forgery and then explain what he is doing (selling cut outs as genuine and adding fake cancels). I would be curious to see what happens. Rob Chestnut is out of town until July 29, but I was assured that he would contact me when he comes back.

July 26, 2003 05:45 AM Jim Lawler <jlawler@comteck.com>

Jim L.

July 26, 2003 04:58 Jim Watson

Good Morning, Everyone!
Today's dated postal history item from is an airmail cover from Newfoundland to England in 1933. It has the special Balbo airmail issue.

July 26, 2003 Dave P (orthorpteran)

If anyone wants to see how not to write up an auction take a peek at Ebay lot 2941740805. A good example of someone not knowing what they are doing.

If he had just stuck to the facts (it is a very rare canceller, and very popular), describing it as very rare (not unique) he would not have had to withdraw it and would have got a decent price - though might be better in a "real" auction in UK. It had got well into 3 figures before being withdrawn.

July 26, 2003 David Benson

Christo, the darker marking is not on the stamp but on the part of the circle of the cds. on the paper.

David Benson

July 26, 2003 1000 BST Ed.B

Ed

July 26, 2003 01.34 Knud-Erik Andersen

July 26, 2003 Roger Heath

David -
Paul send me an Addie on cover and it sure looks like ink-jet printer to me.
I had a post deleted on the site when referencing "riny's" Swiss auctions. I informed Moderator Stef it would be nice to have a link to report violations of th eNew Ebay/APS policies as announced on the Announcements Board. I'm not holding my breath!

Roger

July 26, 2003 Brian R

This is what happens when you sleep through history class. :o)

July 26, 2003 Christo van Zyl

IO Thanks for the addresses - I'll mail a couple to you on Monday. Maybe you'll have them all. Hopefully some will prove to be of better quality etc. Let me know when you get them.

July 26, 2003 David Benson

Alsion, just got back and notice your posts. I wouldn't like to be handling the enquiries at the APS. They have to be handled promptly and a committee may soon be inundated with hundreds at the same time. It will most probably end up like Safe Harbor (what a silly term) and just send out form letters saying they are looking into it and by then the asle is over. It might be simpler to change some of the rules relating to listing philatelic material. The 1st. would be NO PRIVATE SALES. I don't mind private feedback as that is a personal preference of the seller but PRIVATE SALES has no reason to be there for stamps.

You mentioned Adtinvest but no one has proven they are computer prints. They definitely are modern productions made by scanning a position and reproducing them BUT he claims they are forgeries. If you say that they will allow classical forgeries, what if he claims they are classical forgeries. Who is going to make the decision. How are they going to decide on a mixed lot of forgeries (one was mentioned here the other day) which has hundreds of forgeres but the majority of them was Atinvest blocks with some classical forgeries added.

Regarding Yugoslavia and Turkey, of course Ebay should have included Balkans all both of these should have gone there and most probably Turkey by itself. Too late but both now should go under Europe, other.

David Benson

July 25, 2003 Brian R

I promise to only take you up on such an offer, if it's something I'm questioning, that I would putting serious money into.

July 25, 2003 9:20 John L. Kimbrough <JLKCSA@aol.com> http://www.csastamps.com
 

Brian R.
Sorry, but there are no real good quick tips on how to recognize the FOX CSA covers except to be aware of the distinctive handwriting that appears on many but not all of the fake covers. In CSA Postal History, the Fox covers appear to be mostly patriotics plus a few other very high level type covers. I also have an example in my reference collection of a Strip of 5 of the 2c Red-Brown on cover with his known fake Scottsville, Va postmark. There are still many of these covers out there. If you are just not sure, it is best to ask someone who is familiar with these covers. By the way, Fox did not fake only CSA covers but also early classic USA and I believe Pony Express covers as well. But I myself have only studied his CSA fakes and have about a dozen of his fake CSA covers in my reference collection. If you have any questions about specific CSA items, you can always contact me by E-mail as I only lurk occasionally on the boards.

July 25, 2003 Brian R <bdr5917@aol.com>

John in MS. Address above. I'll warn you now, I'm very leery of any CSA perforated stamp, because even I, could churn out some seemingly good ones.

July 25, 2003 John@Magnolia

I just sent you an E.Tell me what you think!

July 25, 2003 8:40pm John L. Kimbrough <JLKCSA@aol.com> http://www.csastamps.com
 

Brian R / Foxy
The CSA Norfolk cover that you linked to is perfectly genuine. The handwriting is not Foxy. Here is a page with four Fox covers, three of which have the tell-tale handwriting.

July 25, 2003 John@Magnolia Stamps

I just got in a few minutes ago saw your post where you recieved the cover glad it made it safely,The one I sent it in sould be good for show and tell also,that is if someone did'nt pilfer the stamps off of the mailer!..I do on occaision find something of interest.

July 25, 2003 magnolia stamps

I have aquired a couple of interesting items that I thought you would want,send me your E-Mail address again ( I seem to have lost it again)I'll send a pic. 11e,12f.unused

July 25, 2003 Greg Ioannou <gregioannou@rogers.com>

Randy Shoemaker
I hope I speak for virtually all of us when I say that I'd be delighted to see Randy Shoemaker watching or (preferably) joining in the discussions here and on Richard's board. The more knowledgable people you have at the table, the better the conversation, no?

July 25, 2003 Roger Heath

Get rid of these first
This "Swiss" item, and others by this seller, has been offered on and off for one year. I hope that the new standards will disallow such listing titles -
Switzerland 2L1UsedSoldAsIsCat:35000.00. This item isn't a stamp, it is a reproduction that was purchased by the seller last year in another Ebay collection of "forgeries" as stated by the previous owner. None ofthese auctions won by this dealer had blobs of ink at the time of purchase. The ink "cancels" appeared between the time of the original purchase by the present owner who is reoffering these "Swiss" lots. None of these "Swiss" lots have anything to do with stamp collecting, other than being pictures of stamps. The asking price is patently absurd! Each "Classic" has an asking price based on a catalogue value, and none of them have any value differences. They are worthless pieces of paper! Ebay was informed at least twice via its Trust and Safety links and Community Standards links. Neither time was anything done, maybe the times are a-changin'.

Roger
APS161211

Now all I need to do is get tthe early Swiss Strubels described correctly on the APS Store site¿
 

July 25, 2003 Alison Ruttenberg

New Stamp Categories
Where is the best place to list Yugoslavia? I miss the Eastern/ Western Europe subcategories. I listed it under Europe other and hope it is found. Same problem for Turkey and post independence India, why on earth don't they have their own subcategories?

July 25, 2003 Bill Weiss (By RCF)

Good Evening everyone. After reading today's postings it seems a good time to bring up several things about expertizing. First, despite APS's reputation for inaccurate foreign opinions, I honestly believe that, at least in this country, that the APS committee will begin to be the dominant committee. Why? The PSE announcement that they no longer will expertize about ten major areas including all covers will cut them off at the knees. Why should any collector want to give only his stamps to PSE and anything else he needs done to another committee? In my view, that collector will decide to give ALL of his business to some other committee and that let's (in US philately) only APS and PF.
On another matter the founder of PSE, Randy Shoemaker has asked me to give him access to these boards, particularly Dave's board so that he can learn more about fraudulent sellers and sales. I have known Randy pretty much ever since he formed PSE (Professional Stamp Experts) and in my opinion, he's agood guy who can add lots of knowledge to any board he participates in. What is currently going on with PSE is basically out of Randy's control now that he sold out to Collector's Universe, so I certainly can't hold it against him for their current policies.
I have already asked Richard how he feels about this and he has no problem with asking him to join us, but I wanted to run it by the entire board membership to see if there are any problems. If so, please speak.
RICHARD - Is there some way you can transfer this post to Dave's board without me typing it all again?

 

July 25, 2003 Bill Weiss

Expert
Speaking of expertizing, the founder of PSE, Randy Shoemaker has asked me if he can have access to these boards with the purpose of learning more about fraudulent sellers and sales on ebay. I know Randy going back to when he formed PSE and IMO he's a good guy who would be an asset to any board he participates on. I have already run this by Frajola and he's fine with it, but I did want to bring it up to both boards tonight in case anybody has any serious objections. If not, I will give him the addresses on Monday.

July 25, 2003 Alison Ruttenberg (eddiephilatelic) <Ruttenberg@msn.com>

New Code of Conduct
Just had a coversation with the ebay executive for the top stamp dealers (one of the only perks of being a gold power seller, I guess). I had some questions about the new policy which he clarified. First, if a complaint comes in about a particular lot being an undisclosed forgery or altered stamp, ebay does not make the determination, nor rely on the expertise of the emailer. There is a special committee at APS that was formed (no ebay seller or member is eligible to be on this committee), and the issue will be forwarded to this committee. If this committee can give an opinion of 99% certainty that the lot is an undisclosed forgery or altered stamp then the lot will be pulled. (Question: What about German, Italian and British Commonwealth material that the APS is not the recognized experts on?????) The seller can still sell the lot, only must get a cert first or describe the alterations. Ebay is still working with APS on an acceptible forgery policy. They are working out the language of a new rule that basically will boil down to classic forgeries that are recognized as collectible by the APS community will by OK, photocopied facsimilie stuff, not OK (bye bye Atdinvest). AS IS auctions are no longer allowed. Ebay will aggressively enforce the rules about not selling an item AS IS that might be a forgery. (bye bye NYstamps) Either it is or it is not, and must be disclosed. Sellers who have doubts must get a cert first. The rules are still unclear as to the WWII era intelligence forgeries, I am lobbying ebay to let them stay on the site (they are listed in Michel and are recognized by the philatelic community.

July 25, 2003 Paolo Bagaglia

Christo v. Z. I saved to disk the image you linked for further examination. The first impression is that it is a fake, because the size of the year date does not correspond to that portrayed on my reference images (e.g. I consulted M. Gallenga "I Bolli delle Romagne": Bologna type 62-63 at page 37) , but I yet have to find a strke of that postmark within the third decade of 'Maggio' ("Mag" = May) in my reference material.
Off to sleep, Paolo


 

July 25, 2003 Brian R

Foxy?
Maybe I'm just paranoid, but the handwriting, on this item looks a lot like John Fox. Anyone whos delt with his stuff care to comment?

July 25, 2003 Ed.B

Is ebay broke again?
Is it just me or is Ebay down again? Anyone else having problems accessing the site?Ed

July 25, 2003 Paolo Bagaglia

Christo v. Z. sorry, but it is my opinion that the cancel on your Sardinia 40c. vermilion rose (Sass. #16F) could be a fake (just my opinion, though)

I very much like the Cérès catalogue. I have recently bought three France collections and the catalogue is proving to be a great instrument for detecting varieties.

Oner funny example is here (meant to be humorous -- I will take the link down in about 1 hour).

Sorry but I am in debt of a reply to some very kind people on the Italian eBay Forum. Unfortunately I mostly wrote everthing in English, so now I have got some work to make all in Italian and this is taking TIME. It proved to be not appropriate to write in English regarding my stuff (mostly disappointing, with some exceptions, though).
Bye, bye -- Paolo

July 25, 2003 David Benson

Richard, that piece brings up an interesting point re. Ebay and APS. No one can say for sure whether it is on an original piece without seeing it in the flesh. If it was listed as 40c. Red Carmine used on piece with Bologna 1862 cds. and there was complaints that the piece was not original, what happens. Most bidders for that couldn't care less if it was on piece or not as they are only looking for a fine 4 margin example with clear cancel which that one is and some buyers would wash it off the piece anyway if it was not correctly tied. Does Ebay have the right to cancel the sale because of a few queries about it.

David Benson

July 25, 2003 Richard Frajola

David B I agree that the ink there does at least look darker. However, Sardinia that is "virgin" on cover or piece has a different feel to it because so much in the embossing is lost in soaking and pressing. Not saying you are wrong - just that, to me, it looks OK.

July 25, 2003 David Benson

Richard, on my screen the left side appears to have a different colour ink on the piece.

David Benson

July 25, 2003 Richard Frajola

Christo I don't have a problem with your Sardinian stamp. Shade is correct for 1862 and the lack of defined tie at right doesn't bother me as the stamp is raised well above surface of letter paper when struck on embossed stamp. Also, Sardinia is very frequently found remaining on original piece because they are a bitch to soak off due to heavy gum.

July 25, 2003 David Benson

Chriso, Paolo will comment on the shade and cancel but IMO the stamp did not originate on that piece.

David Benson

July 25, 2003 Christo van Zyl

Italian State Stamps (Paolo)
Paolo (or anyone else), just to take you up on your Italian state stamps. Could I please get your opinion on this Sardinia Stamp?

Kind regards, Christo
 

July 25, 2003 Mauro Mowszowicz

Wrapper
Dear K-E A.
About your wrapper, as you correctly identified, it was resent from the original address (a POBox in Buenos Aires) to a new POBox at La Plata (Buenos Aires is the Federal capital of Argentina and La Plata is the Buenos Aires province capital). about your pictures:
- ARG2.jpg - "CARTEROS" means Mailman (Mailman delivery) im not able to read the rest but if you can provide a higher res scan i can give a try.
- ARG3.jpg, "ABONADOS #2" means REGISTERED USERS, POBox users.
- ARG4.jpg "CARTEROS 2 CAPITAL", again Buenos Aires Mailman cancel.

Hope this helps

Regards

Mauro

July 25, 2003 1: 02 pm Andrew Liptak <aliptak@sympatico>

Hong Kong stamp stores
I'll be visiting Hong Kong in a short while and wondered if there were any postal history dealers in the City. Are there any bourses, flea markets that sort of thing where covers are sold?

Andrew

July 25, 2003 Paolo Bagaglia

Various
RE- Sardinia 4th Issue embossing systems:
David B. it is because of your input of about a year ago (for which I thanked you) that I got enlighted regarding a possible explanation for the second method of embossing (theory confirmed by U. Ballabio and by G. Bottacchi).

Christo France is just a very easy hobby for me at the moment. Thanks for the suggestion.

Mauro Thank you for linking that auction. It's a made up collection and I don't like most of that kind on eBay, even though this one comes with many certificates of re-known experts.
My estimate for it (from the scans) is well below the actual bid (about US$19,000), although this one reached the reserve.

Best regards, Paolo

 

July 25, 2003 DaveP

25 cents???
Prometheus

Not all of us were rich, most of my stamp packets as a kid were 6d (then under 3 cents), with the occasional splurge on a shilling pack. I used to think it great when I found a current mint stamp in them - even if it was always a Cayman farthing or similar!

July 25, 2003 Prometheus

New Selling Rules at That Place Stamps
One of New rules. Specifically identify every individual stamp listed to avoid misunderstandings about the nature of your items.

Guess I'll just list in Paper as I don't think I could postively, perfectly ID most of what I need to sell off.

I guess the collector who wishes to sell some of extras is really in for the headaches???

 

July 25, 2003 Richard Warren

APS Code of Ethics
So far, so good. Let's hope it works. But the terms seem clearly designed to hit one particular nail on the head, namely, pchelt & ilk. Which is all highly desirable, but my major beef is the flagrant sale of illegals on Ebay, and here the terms don't fit so well.
Also, I note the provision to abide by "federal laws" ets. Does that mean that all this will only apply to US sellers? Because if so, there will still be some big problems about ...
 

July 25, 2003 Prometheus

Old Memories= for the older set
Remember when you could buy one of these PACKETS25C
I don't
Thought some of you folks who started out collecting as children might need the Flashback.

July 25, 2003 prometheus

Finland = Thanks to all
Bob5381 = Just bought a COLLECTION of finland looked to fill the couple of holes in album seemed hard to find

DBenson = Thanks for that Delcampe site has a couple i need

K.E. = Thanks for that link also now off to figure exchange rates.



 

July 25, 2003 Chip G

Scott US 542
The 2000 Specialized lists it as $5.50 on cover.
Best I can do.
Chip

July 25, 2003 nomad55

US 542
Can someone please check the 2003 Scotts US specialized and let me know what their value is for 542 on cover or card? Its the perf 10 by 11 1 cent green Washington.

Thanks

July 25, 2003 Jim Whitford-Stark

Sheesh, I go to the top of UK on the US site and the top four listed store sites are:
Ordermaticman, Hadleigh, Roger North, and Noble Spirit.
There has to be a moral there somewhere!

July 25, 2003 06:57 Bill Claghorn (claghorn1p) http://www.geocities.com/claghorn1p/
 

K-E needs some help. :O)
Knud-Erik, I take that back. I looked at the posting and not the cancel. Ignore my last post.

July 25, 2003 06:56 Bill Claghorn (claghorn1p) http://www.geocities.com/claghorn1p/
 

K-E needs some help. :O)
Knud-Erik,
#3 A?UNADOS N° 2; = ADUANOS N° 2 = CUSTOMS #2

 

July 25, 2003 06:43 Jim Watson

K-E needs some help. :O)
Knud-Erik,
This may not be much help but maybe someone else can pick it up from here:

#3 A?UNADOS N° 2;
#4 CARTEROS N°2 CAPITAL = MAILMAN NO. 2 Capital
#2 the word CARTEROS (mailman) is in the upper right of the cropped view.

July 25, 2003 06:42 Bill Claghorn (claghorn1p) http://www.geocities.com/claghorn1p/
 

Grossly Mis-Identified
Bill Weiss As a fellow fancy cancel collector, it is much easier to recognize mis-identified stamps by cancels which were used many years after issue. For example, take a look at THIS LOT and tell me how many of them are correctly identified! The Cincinnatti 9 is on #182. The 2 cent could be correct. The three cent is very blue as a color changeling but could be correct. The 6 cent is the wrong color and is 159 as the carmine of 148 is much deeper. The 7 cent needs to be checked. The 10 cent is likely American Bank Note too. At least half the stamps are mis-identified and the rest are defective or dubious. What a lot!

July 25, 2003 06.21 Knud-Erik (knuden)

July 25, 2003 05.59 Knud-Erik Andersen (knuden)

July 25, 2003 04:49 Jim Watson

Good Morning, Everyone!
Today's dated postal history item from is a simple cover from Riobamba in the mountains of Ecuador to Guaranda only a few km away in 1865. It has three nice old stamps!

July 25, 2003 4:35 a.m. Bob5381 <bob4blues@chartermi.net>

Finland stamp auction
David Benson!
Thanks for the link to the delcampe auction website. I only got halfway through it before I have to go to work this morning. Now, if I can just resist the urge to spend time on that site at work....!

Bob in MN

July 25, 2003 04:28 AM Jim Lawler <jlawler@comteck.com>

Jim L.

July 25, 2003 David Benson

Christo, the bilingual overprints on normally get about 50-60% of Gibbons and the higher values more. They are scarce with very low printing quantities and some minor varieties that are only recognised by specialists. Hopefully there are at least 2 checking yours. They sell exceptionally well. The SWA are slower and 40% of Gibbons would be more realistic.

David Benson

July 25, 2003 Christo van Zyl

David, from what I remembered last night in going through them quickly, there were no super cancels (very clear, distinct type cancels). I will be able to identify the cancels once I 've scanned them. The other used material I've got from South West Africa are used pairs, singles and blocks of the London Pictorials of South Africa with the South West Africa/Suid Wes Afrika or S W A type overprints. These also appear to have fairly hive CV's. I am a bit wary about putting them up on ebay, as I don't know how well they will sell. I get the impression that people don't really want to bid on this material - I consider getting 10% of CV for this material as very poor!

July 25, 2003 David Benson

Christo, and of course beware fake cancels on the high values, especially lozenge watermark.

David Benson

July 25, 2003 Christo van Zyl

Will do, thanks David.

July 25, 2003 David Benson

Christo, firstly check to see if any better cancels and if there are any rare ones , then list those separately as they will attract a different clientele. With the others I would list the higher values separately and bulk the lowers.

David Benson

July 25, 2003 Christo van Zyl

Advice Needed- German SWA
Maybe Dave Benson or anyone else can help? I have a number of used copies of the Yachts issue of German SWA, low values up to to 5 Mark values. I know that these are generally well sought after.
I need some advice on how to list these on ebay. Do I list the high values as indivdual items, do I list the lower values all together as one group, or do I add them all together in one listing?
Regards
 

July 24, 2003 Brian R

ongoing stampchat education
Bill C & W and Richard F Thank you all of you for your comments on that 1c NYFM auction. I could tell something was going on, with the price, and the number of bidders. It never occured to me, about how the supplementary rate structure, would automatically make a 1c usage so rare. You learn something every day.

July 24, 2003 Jim Lawler

bookmark

July 24, 2003 David Benson

Prometheus,

have a look here, they have double the listings than Ebay,

http://stamps.delcampe.com/liste.php?language=E&cat=27

There is another Auction site in Sweden that has huge quantity of Scandinavian material but I can't find it on my favourites, if I locate it I will let you know,

David Benson

July 24, 2003 7:12 PM Bob5381 <bob4blues@chartermi.net>

Finland - General Question
Prometheus:
Hello! I'm new to this board but have be lurking in the balcony waiting for mention of something I have some knowledge of to be mentioned! Earlier you asked about the dearth of stamps from Finland listed on eBay. I have been following eBay only since January of this year. I collect Scandinavia and am focusing on 'filling in the spaces' on Finland at present. While I don't have much experience with other collecting areas, there does seem to be a small number of listings. Naturally, listings are down during the summer. Finland has not issued a lot of stamps, as compared to say, Sweden. The scarce issues are the pre-Independence, pre-1917 issues while under direct Russian rule. As you probably are aware, this early period encompasses only about 80+ issues not counting varieties.

As with many other collectors, I gravitated to collecting Finnish stamps because of my ethnic heritage. There are probably not large numbers of Finland collectors. It is a fairly desireable area. The stamps are attractive (to me at least) and the stamp issuing policies even of recent years have not been out of line with the rest of Scandinavia. (However, the Disney issue of a few years ago just about sent me over the edge!) It is good to see someone asking about my area of interest:-)

Anyone have other comments?

Bob in MN (Minnesota USA)

July 24, 2003 COVERWIZ

Might be why eBay is not all that concerned with the stamps category... Should have bought eBay stock in '98 at $30 US a share, that share is now $2200 US after splits...

July 24, 2003 Mauro Mowszowicz

Italia
Paolo, Have you seen this?
Regards

Mauro

July 24, 2003 David Benson

Coverwiz, some of the figures are astronomical, DVD & Movies have double the entire amount of all the Stamp categories.

David Benson

July 24, 2003 David Benson

Coverwiz, looking at the US site, it looks like stamps are only a tiny fraction there too. Most other categories surpass it, some by almost 1000%.

David Benson

July 24, 2003 18:30 COVERWIZ

EBAY reports record profits
Interesting BBC report on eBays growth in the UK and Germany - triple % growth there. Although important to us, I imagine stamps are a tiny percentage of sales in comparision to most other categories.....

July 24, 2003 David Benson

Steve, and what if the seller is not a member of APS or does it mean that all sellers MUST be members of APS. I mentioned this a few weeks ago as I suspected that APS wanted to get involved to boost membership (and collect fees).

David Benson who like most non US sellers is not a member of APS.

July 24, 2003 6:09 pm Steve Taylor (aka philcomp) http://www.timeblaster.com/tbeindex.shtml
 

If you agree, I suggest you send an email to eBay and, if you are a member of the APS, to the APS.
 

July 24, 2003 Bill Weiss

Improperly Described Stamps
KEN S; Boy, did you hit the nail on the head. In my opinion there are way MORE inaccurately described stamps than accurate not to mention those NOT described at all with obvious faults. The problem with 19th C. US is huge. I basically stopped bidding on straight stamps on ebay unless I am confident the seller will accept a legitimate return and/or will allow expertization. Some honest sellers simply say "return for any reason within X days". Others aren't so generous but you can trust them (guys like Fabio or Century, etc.). I only look now for fancy cancels or something unusual where the value doesn't fully depend on the stamp's soundness.

 

July 24, 2003 David Benson

Ken, most probably unbelievably naive. They (APS) only think it is the tip of the iceberg, they don't realise how much there is below sea level.

David Benson

July 24, 2003 Jim Griffith <griffith@dweeb.org> http://album.dweeb.org
 

Jim

July 24, 2003 17:44 Ken Srail

They either have no real intention of doing anything, or they're unbelievably naïve about the magnitude of the problem.
 

July 24, 2003 5:37 Mark Bardell

Another Neg.......
Don't feel too bad Ed. I received my third today. I had a guy who bid on a lot that ended July 3rd. He emails me yesterday after 3 reminders saying that his computer was "broke into and someone else placed the bids for him". Yet - he left feedback for somebody two days AFTER my auction ended. I guess the theif decided to leave feedback for him as well. If anyone wants to add him to their blocked bidder list his ID is HEARSE74 ( he already has something like 27 negs and tons of neutrals.

Of course, I'm wearing it with pride as I am my others :)

Mark ( picking up his new car tomorrow ! ).

July 24, 2003 David Benson

Just sent off a complaint to Safe Harbor about a certain seller in Florida selling counterfeits, let's see if I get a reply.

David Benson

July 24, 2003 David Benson

Steve, looks like good news day. To my understanding it pertyains to all counterfeit stamps whether US or not,

" eBay does not permit the sale of stamps that are fraudulent or improperly described "

I can't see the word US there although it is vague as the word " fraudulent " includes counterfeit, fake, bogus, reprints " etc. Improperly described is only an opinion. Most stamps are improperly described but that is becuase everyone's idea of description's varies.

I hope that this will lead to the demise of sellers who only sell freshly made fakes and not classical forgeries.


David Benson

July 24, 2003 4:09 pm Steve Taylor (aka philcomp) http://www.timeblaster.com/tbeindex.shtml
 

On the other hand, as I read the policy, it is possible that any listing which violates the APS Code of Ethics could result in the 'NARU'ing of any sellers not adhering to the Code. This would result in the 'NARU'ing of many eBay sellers if everyone complains to eBay about listings not adhering to the Code.

July 24, 2003 Charles L. Williams

German Inflation Covers
nomad55... I would be one of those. Nice example. Kobald defines "Massenverwendung" or Massive frankings as covers having 50 or more stamps. Cover shown is "Vielverwendung" or multi-usage type having 20 to 49 stamps.

July 24, 2003 Jim Whitford-Stark

Dave P
The next most tricky is the 4d.

July 24, 2003 David Benson

Richard, it is a pity the pair was broken, the usage may have proven authenticity to the item although it may have made you update your book.

David Benson

July 24, 2003 2020 BST Ed.B

End of rant. Ed

July 24, 2003 nomad55

Who the one that does German inflation covers?

Here's a prime example

July 24, 2003 sveiki!

eBay categories
BTW... Germany & Area (# 3489) - only one category! {:o)

July 24, 2003 sveiki!

eBay categories
Hmmm... Why not Baltic, Balkan categories? Would love that.
The "Topical" categories are still ridiculous few - only 6 (six) different! It's not easy to be a thematical collector on eBay.

Maarten Haven't got an answer on that Russian triangle. Still on holiday, will have a look when I get back home (if I still remember).

July 24, 2003 Dave P (orthorpteran)

Wildings
The paper was the same throughout the Wilding values, but it did change over the years, the biggest change being from the creamy to whiter paper that is listed in the specialised catalogues. I think the ease with which the watermark is apparent varies from one paper batch to another. Being issued in much smaller numbers than the lower values it might just be that a disproportionate number were printed on a difficult batch.

I'll check up on the watermark illustration and let you know if someone does not get the answer first. Don't forget to look out for the real missing bits in the watermarks - even average used they go for big bucks if you are lucky enough to find a clear example.

July 24, 2003 Jim Whitford-Stark http://www.iomoon.com
 

A couple of questions.

I have been attempting to watermark UK Wildings for the last few days and have noticed that about 90% of the ones that I cannot categorically identify are the "high values" namely the 1/-, 1/3, 1/6.
Was a different paper used for these stamps?

In my 2001 SG GB Concise, the watermarks for the Tudor Crown (W153) and St. Edwards crown (W165), in spite of being "the actual size and normal position as viewed from the front of the stamp" are patently wrong. The upper E2R on W153 is shifted three columns left and the lower "R" on W165 is missing a leg. Were these corrected in later versions of the catalog or are they persistent errors that everbody assumes that SG knows they are errors?

July 24, 2003 Jim Whitford-Stark

Christo
Coming at you courtesy of eBay.

July 24, 2003 christo

Io, Might be a good idea just to email it again, thanks.

July 24, 2003 Jim Whitford-Stark <jlwstark6@aol.com> http://www.iomoon.com
 

christo

I'm now back in the wet US of A.
Scarsdale address works if you have it.

July 24, 2003 Christo van Zyl (waves_1)

Ceres Catalogue
Paolo (vonbag). Good to hear that you have got a Ceres catalogue. Check out the Dallay cat as well.

July 24, 2003 Christo van Zyl (waves_1)

I need your address please IO
Hi Jim. I have noted that you are currently in dry Englang. Could you please send me a mailing address - I have some volcano stamps to forward to you.

July 24, 2003 Christo van Zyl (waves_1)

Balkan States
Hi again. Just with respect to the changes in listing categories. Just my luck to hav ebay change the categories when I list some old Serbian stamps. Ended up in listing them under Europe other after I've have found under preview that they would have listed under Hungary using the older category numbers.

July 24, 2003 8.09 Mark Bardell

Siam
Richard.... Hi again ! thanks for the email - I've replied, hopefully you should have it by now.

Getting interesting as I seem to have an email bidding war between three people at the moment, all offering me larger and larger sums to end the auction. I'm going to let them stew for a couple of days before making my decision :o)

Mark - off to test drive a new Honda Accord shortly :)

July 24, 2003 Richard Frajola

Siam
PS - I take back my comment on out of period postmark on your example - closer look reveals it is 1890 not 1900 as I first thought. I have seen these postmarked late (like 1900) which is part of the reason I originally felt that they were not genuinely issued.

July 24, 2003 Mark Bardell

Siam
Hi Richard - many thanks for your comments. I currently have three offers on this stamp and have also just spoken to my partner who supplies these stamps. This was apparently a pair, but was only attached by two perfs, so he decided to split it up. He sold the other one for $400. As you say, we are both pretty certain that this is not a forged ovp't so we're just playing by ear ( and bids ) as to how this one does.

Maybe I should start using the Frajola catalog for my listings - you may even get your own category in stamps !!

Mark.

July 24, 2003 Richard Frajola

Siam
Mark Bardell Having written a book on Siam postage stamps :) - your stamp is a Frajola #26 and I listed in italics meaning that its authenticity is questioned. My exact comments were: "Some authorities consider the type 5 to be a forged type based primarily on the great difference in the Siamese characters although the English numeral is identical with authentic types."

I valued the item in used condition at $700 in 1980. PS - personally, I do consider it to be a forgery (note drastic aout of period cancel). What you have is, as Herbert Bloch used to say, "genuine as it exists" which means that what you have is what the catalogs describe.

July 24, 2003 Prometheus

FINLAND = General Question
I see very few Finland/Suomi stamps for sale, is this because feww collect or very finite group???
Irtolehtina I ?

July 24, 2003 5:26 Mark Bardell

Siam / Thailand
David - Thanks for your comments. I had another email this morning offering me $500 ! I've told him to bid on the item along with everyone else ( he did offer to pay by credit card which I am always dubious of ).

Looking forward to watching this one.

Mark.

July 24, 2003 Guillaume van T.

Geez, how dumb can you get? What about Bosnia, what about Kosovo?
Even if you do not collect stamps, at least you should know where you are sending your UN peace troops. I agree with David that a Balkan subsection would have been great, with subdivisions for all the different areas.

July 24, 2003 jim_lawler <jlawler@comteck.com>

Jim L.
 

July 24, 2003 David Benson

Thanks for the cudos, what was it I said,

David Benson

July 24, 2003 03:43 Jim Watson

Good Morning, Everyone!
Today's dated postal history item from is a registered cover from the Seychelles to England in 1896. It has a colorful array of uncommon stamps!
 

July 24, 2003 Paolo Bagaglia

I accidentally neglected to mention that the possible justification I cited, to the otherwise paradoxical 'advent' of the 'second method' of embossing, was given by David B..
Paolo
 

July 24, 2003 David Benson

Richard, some of those are Floridian productions.

David Benson

July 24, 2003 Richard Ballhagen (spain_1850)

Forgeries
Bill C - A lot for you?

July 23, 2003 David Benson

Mark, wait, it should get about $250-$300, all the bids will be from Thailand.

David Benson

July 23, 2003 7:05 Mark Bardell

Siam / Thailand lot..
Hi, can anyone shed any light on the lot I am currently offering shown below. I've been offered $120 for it ( not going to take it - maybe a wrong thing to do, maybe not ). If it is the stamp that I think it is then it has no price listed in Scott.

Off to bed shortly, will check back in the morning.

Mark.

Siam / Thailand Lot

July 23, 2003 6:47 PM Steve Taylor (aka philcomp) http://www.timeblaster.com/tbeindex.shtml
 

eBay Categories
eBay specifically said (in the phone conversation) 'Nobody knows what the Baltic or Balkan countries are.'!!! I responded that collectors of these areas certainly do (as do many others). I presume that the 'nobody' to whom they referred were themselves.

July 23, 2003 David Benson

Of course the additions of the extra European areas is a great help to both sellers and searchers. Why Albania and Bulgaria and not a general Balkan area which would have been more sensible as it would also have included the rest of the Balkans.

David Benson

July 23, 2003 David Benson

Steve, It appears about the only suggestion they used was to break up Benelux and Scandinavia which is sensible. They ignored British Commonwealth which should have had some revisions, most probably they considered it too hard for them although they could have easily have asked for advice. They most probably looked at some of the other suggestions and ignored them because too difficult and they had little philatelic knowledge. What is needed is a committee consisting of major listers, bidders and Ebay. It MUST be all the English language sites so they are consistent. After that is done then some of the European sites can be included.

Anyway we have to accept what we have as there is no discussion with Ebay, just a dictatorial decision,

David Benson

July 23, 2003 6:11 pm Steve Taylor (aka philcomp) http://www.timeblaster.com/tbeindex.shtml
 

eBay Categories
eBay actually contacted me in order to hold a phone conversation with me regarding the changes. I explained our reasoning behind our recomendations (both the general principals and a number of specifics regarding some categories). The phone conversation lasted over one half an hour. So far as I can tell, nothing resulted from the phone conversation. One of the major points that eBay made was that they wanted to better 'align' the stamps categories on the various eBay sites so that cross site searching would work better. As best as I can determine, very little was accomplished in this respect.

July 23, 2003 6:10PM Bill Weiss

NYFM
Since I just happen to have written a book on this subject...that is the most fabulous strike of that particular NYFM that I have ever seen, and if I had been aware of it, it would have gone even higher! In a real public auction it would have sold for MUCH more than it did. As was pointed out already, they are scarcer on the 1cent values than all other lower values (through the 10cent) and this one was likely on a postal card at one time and the clerk struck this stamp once and possibly the card as well - we can never know for sure. If anyone ever sees a great streike of a NYFM on ebay again, I would appreciate knowing of it, either by the board or by private email. Thanks.

July 23, 2003 Greg Ioannou <gregioannou@rogers.com>

eBay categories
Yep, the usual stupidity from eBay. All sorts of nonsensical changes.

July 23, 2003 David Benson

Steve, looks like they took no notice of it and did it their way. Some of the suggestions would never had got past 1st. base but some should have been implemented.

It looks like they took no notice of the suggestions on the " suggestion Page.

David Benson

July 23, 2003 Steve Taylor (aka philcomp) http://www.timeblaster.com/tbeindex.shtml
 

eBay Categories
Anyone wishing to compare the new eBay categories with what we (on the eBay Stamps Chat board) suggested, can look here.

July 23, 2003 16:47 Bill Claghorn (claghorn1p) http://www.geocities.com/claghorn1p/
 

SOTN NYFM
Brian R That red SOTN NYFM is a true gem and worthy of a world class exhibit. The one cent values are difficult in red because the supplementary mail was double rate and therefore always an even number. Perhaps there is a twin somewhere. It is worth the price.

July 23, 2003 Jim Whitford-Stark http://www.iomoon.com
 

I can see why someone should search the UK for "Scott".
Just to see if some US seller has listed some of the rarer varieties under their commoner Scott number.