StampChat Archives

Archive:  October 16 - 31, 2003

• Last updated:  20 March 2004

October 31, 2003 Brian R

low points
Ebay is so messed up right now (friday night is patch the house of cards programming, right?), that I can't pull up any listings. So I wandered over to Yahoo to see whats up.
The first 3 listings I viewed were all Riny218.
Same old scams they were pulling on ebay too.
Makes one feel defeated.
Perhaps scammers shouldn't be banned,
but instead burned at the stake.
We could even fuel the fires with their wares.
Good thing Halloween is only one day a year.
I seem to really be getting in the mood.

October 31, 2003 David S.

482A from mixture.

October 31, 2003 Christo van Zyl

Brian R: Yes, I have been following that discussion, but must admit it is way over my head (probably because I started following it at a late stage). It is utterly amazing how much effort (Investigation) people has committed to determine whether these are genuine printings and not fake.

October 31, 2003 Christo van Zyl

Thanks for some of the comments on getting the document size down in Word.I was pretty sure that one was able to save a document in html format, it gets rid of most of the formatting and other errors Word retains after a while of deleting pics etc. My sister in law's MSC thesis was done in Word , some 260 pages, no pics though, that ended up with a size of 750kb. I have checked this morning, just opened a new page, type a few words on it and saved, 19kb. I probably will have to go and look at the images included in my doc and resize/resample them. To zip the doc is not reall ya good option - most of the pics are already in a compressed format (jpg) so one does not gain much from using zip.

October 31, 2003 Christo van Zyl

As yesterday, I have a couple of questions again. What does the use of the K and the *** in the bottom of the Danish CDS mean/stand for ? If Bjorn M or Knud - Erik
(sorry to hear about your health problems Knud) is around, could you maybe please have a look at the queries I have posted yesterday for cancels of the day 3?

What post office is the 68 in the target cancel (Denmark)

What does one call the split ring type cancels the Danish and swiss and I think Germans so often use? They have these vertical bars in the semi-circular segments.

On the German cancel, what does the 7-9 E stand for ? It is located after the date.
 

October 31, 2003 Brian R

I doubt it though.

October 31, 2003 Bill Weiss

482A
KEN L; Why aren't they 482s?? They are probably both 409s and 482s. No one is good enough to know from the scans in that lot which are which. Darker shades are generally 409s and lighter 482s.

October 31, 2003 Roger Heath

Swiss Fakes - Time to Vote
I would like to see comments about this auction.
Is this what should be reported to the "Stamp Committee"? Should one wait until after November 3? If these are identified as as probably fakes, and sold "as is", do I report the auction? There are so much of this material on Ebay Germany that limiting reports listed only on Ebay.com is almost pointless. This auction showed as a Featured Auction on my first page of search returns on Ebay.com where I'm looking to see auctions available to the US. You comments don't need to be essay length, but I am interested in Yes and No comments!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2961576974&category=4749

Roger

October 31, 2003 7.42 p.m. john gordon <johnr@castlemoyle.com>

(see if the horiz. rule works?)

Chris
I've looked at Bill Steiner's pages and use them for most of my various collections. I'm thankful he offers them in Pagemaker format as then I can make them my way too. I think his would match the Scott pages except for not having anyone's catalog numbers. I play at the Deegam catalog first level which I think limits me to around 300 or so. Thanks for your suggestion.

John (the spacefiller.)

 

October 31, 2003 Roger Heath

Pro's Album
Pro-
You know I've got to tell you - send me a scan of the Swiss page or pages you're working on and I'll send you some to start fillling in. Switzerland 1908 and back is a good cut-off. If you are collecting later issues, I've got dupes up through the 1930's.The ones you scanned should stay in the kiloware. (;>( Scan the whole pahge just so I can see the spaces and years the album suggests, I can probably deduce which you need. I owe you for the razor cancels so this is an attempt to make good. I've got cable so fast down loads are easy, your upload to FTP or on my email is only consideration.

Roger

October 31, 2003 Ken Lawrence <apsken@aol.com>

Those 482As
are 409s.

October 31, 2003 Brian R

prometheus
It's a little hard to tell. The photo has all the clarity of one taken through the bottom of a coke bottle. However, the color looks right, and the facial contrast is there, to say it has a high probability of being a genuine CSA #6. Scott value for those that still care, around $10, a couple of $'s less if no gum.

October 31, 2003 prometheus

Expert scanning
if someone else posted this my bad STAMP?

October 31, 2003 prometheus

BRIAN R
have you seen the csa 5 center in this lot WHATUTHINK

October 31, 2003 Brian R

It sure sounds impressive though....

October 31, 2003 Prometheus

and then I see 5.99 for this
6bucksEven and say self you have a bunch that look better than that of those.
So maybe I too have 70,000.00 dollars worth.

October 31, 2003 Jim Whitford-Stark

David B

In all my years on eBay I have never seen the same real Mayotte offered in used condition, which was what I was going for in my collection.
The buyer has at least a reference collection to test against the real thing.
And a reference collection that isn't marred by nasty black backstamps.
I do have used real stamps from earlier issuance, but only one real one of the stamps in that auction.

October 31, 2003 prometheus

Jim W-S
I have no real clue on "value" of my stamps But you're dead on right about the expense of the reference works. 65 different books and counting later. And then there are the ones in Languages I don't read (yet) but the Illustrations and extra info not in the big S are required.

October 31, 2003 Jim Whitford-Stark

stamps vs literature

In the last 10 years or so, with the advent of eBay and other internet auction houses, it has become possible to buy almost any stamp that you want, relatively easily, if not cheaply.
However, to become knowledgeable about a specific stamp, issue or countries issuance it is necessary to keep up with what has been published regarding the same.
Depending on your collecting proclivities, this can amount to a substantial investment in literature.
It is well worth it.
As can be seen by the multitudinous persons who used to ask on eBay stamp chat board, how much their collection was worth.
They either listed auctions at a price far in excess of the going price and got no return or at a base price which really surprised them but which could probably have doubled, if they knew what they were doing.
At the moment, my literature collection may be worth more than my stamp collection.
 

October 31, 2003 Jim Lawler <jlawler at comteck dot com>

Jim L.

October 31, 2003 David Benson

Jim, sorry, just reread the new Ebay/APS regulations, either a whack on the face or behind is acceptable, the idiots that voted to mark classical forgeries should be whacked on the behind instead of the stamps.

David B.

October 31, 2003 David Benson

Jim, I noticed that your Mayotte forgeries realised almost $ 44,

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=3488&item=2959429890

Much more than genuine would have realised.

That was without the black blot on the bum, I wonder how much they would have got if you had created philatelic sacrilege and whacked them on the behind,

David B.

October 31, 2003 prometheus

Mallay Tigers are Beautiful stamps
Now to figure out which ones meet my needs (1906 or before) looks like almost like the wash-Frank series in same stamps different papers years . Oh Fun

October 31, 2003 David Benson

Promo, I will print out the scan and see if it of any use to him. Will let you know later this week. If not, list it on Ebay, it should realise about $ 3-5.

David B.

October 31, 2003 Prometheus <Prometheus@1Internetdrive.com>

David B
Send me your address and I'll send you the Chinese , I don't do BOB,

October 31, 2003 David Benson

promo, Wankies is harder to find than the major cities but not one of the rarer cancels. The China is nice, I have a friend who is plating them to the original layout and collects them on cover and with different cancels. Huge study as there are so many variants.

David B.

October 31, 2003 Promethues http://interestingcancels.mysite.freeserve.com/
 

also for anyone interested
the last image on the last page is my 29 feb 1892 now to find a 1888

October 31, 2003 prometheus

David B
actually its Wankies on page 4 , the danzig is from a complete set they all look alike in printing of OVPT
Did you see the Giant chinese express stamp.

October 31, 2003 David Benson

promo, which wanker was that,

David B.

October 31, 2003 David Benson

promo, no reason to doubt it, it has very little value unlike the 2m. that Matthias linked to.



David B.

October 31, 2003 prometheus http://interestingcancels.mysite.freeserve.com/
 

David B + Matthias
Do you think the Danzig Overprint on page one of my site is REAL. ??

Page 1 number 1

I also liked MY Wankers cancel.

October 31, 2003 Chris

Machin pages
John Gordon Bill Steiner publishes Machin pages that
you might take a look at. What level of Machins do you want to play at?
If it is the 8000+ counting gum and tagging differences, stock pages may be the
only way to go.

Chris - plays at the Scott catalog baby level

October 31, 2003 David Benson

Matthias, of course there are exceptions, but virtually all of the German material I have seen, especially German States that have been listed on the US site by sellers from Germany have been faulty or badly cut into.

David B.

October 31, 2003 Matthias Bock

David Benson: Not neccessarily, there are a few Germans selling german material on the US site. I have bought from some of them and was quite happy. One of them told me there is material that goes for better prices overseas.

October 31, 2003 David Benson

Matthias, any seller from Germany selling German material on the US site has to be suspect. If it was any good it would realise better prices on the German site,

David Benson

October 31, 2003 14:58 Bjorn Munch

Sale
Knud-Erik,
Sorry to hear that you have to slow down, doctor's orders? Should you be up this late? :-)

Anyway, I'll buy some, email is coming.
 

October 31, 2003 Matthias Bock

David Benson: Items have been reported. A previous collection of like "laughable" forgeries sold as a "complete Danzig inflation period collection" by the same guy in January this year went for more than $500... *sigh*

October 31, 2003 14.43 Knud-Erik Andersen

Sale
Dear friends,
I don' know if advertizing like this is allowed on this page but if it's not please remove it! :O)
As I have decided to slow down my activitees due to my health; I will be closing down my private sales list.
During the next 14 days, I'm offering you to buy what you want to half the price on the list (yes ½ price!) but i will prefer you mail me a list with the item number, which you want (instead of using the "ad to card" buttom). Payment can be done by Paypal or cash. Should you only want to use CCNow - lets talk about it then.
I will be very happy if you buy a lot, as it will help me to clean up the pages. :O)
Look here.
K.E.

October 31, 2003 David Benson

Matthias, that Danzig is laughable, how could anyone fall for that,

Any bad item he has listed on Ebay.com should be forwarded to Safeharbor complaints as it can be handled by the SWC and presumably they will realise that they are forgeries. Any items listed on Ebay.Germany are beyond their jurisdiction.

The link to complain to Safeharbor is at the base of this page

http://pages.ebay.com/help/index_popup.html?policies=selling-stamps.html

press REPORT and list all the problem items,

David Benson

October 31, 2003 Jim Whitford-Stark

John

If Scott pages are based on Scott catalog, forget it.
Even Royal Mail album pages suck for machins.
I don't know how Gibbons album handles them.
You might want to email John and Tina Carlson at Jet Stamps to ask for advice.

October 31, 2003 Matthias Bock

Forgery alert...
I am sorry this posting is becoming a bit long...

This guy, formerly known as "fricki77", "kopeke99" (these two accounts have been NARU'd by Ebay) and "geo1122" has a long history of offering fakes of almost all areas, but with a strong emphasis on Germany and related areas.

(Historical excourse: In 1999, he sold 1980s Berlin stamps with fake postmarks, while buying the same stamps in MNH at the same time! I have archived an auction by him showing a Danzig issue with postmarks straight out of the printer - he used a sample that was printed in the german stamps catalogue as a model, including all minor errors of the print in the book!)

This is an example of the stuff he sells. If you look at his feedback, you can also see he has a long record of unhappy customers. Note that german Ebay is unwilling to shut him down for good.

Note that he also seems to sell good material now and then, but each and every expensive overprint issue or anything else well-known as being heavily forged should be watched very carefully before bidding.

I think this would be one of the people the APS (or whoever will try to improve things) have to put out of business.

October 31, 2003 1415 Clark Frazier

WinZip
Christo van Zyl,

Try using WinZip or gz if on Unix.

October 31, 2003 Christo van Zyl

Jim W-S: Thanks, the mail is busy going through. I am disapointed at the large file size - about 2 megs. I can't believe it is the images - must be something in the way Word has been set up? Any suggestions on getting the doc file size down?

October 31, 2003 2.03 p.m. John Gordon <johnr@castlemoyle.com> http://www.marianstamps.com
 

As-Is followup
Here's an interesting followup story to the as is beanie babies link on ebay posted here yesterday. (The story is the last on the page.)


Machin Pages
I'm looking for album pages to mount my Machins. I'm tired of using stock pages. Anyone have any suggestions? Are the Scott Machin pages complete enough? Thanks

John
 

October 31, 2003 1340 Clark Frazier

Not Line Pair
New acquisition

October 31, 2003 Brian

D2
I have NO idea, I was just baiting you. I can't effectivly figure out my own W/F's, no way, I'm going to weigh in on the Grinnells.

October 31, 2003 David Benson

Brian, presume it was listed on Ebay.Com, what would be the outcome (remember 24 hour deadline),

David B.
 

October 31, 2003 Brian R

David B
Nah, the seller would just run it on Ebay.au where nobody cares. ;o)

October 31, 2003 David Benson

Bill, but the question should be " If a Grinnell was listed on Ebay " would it be allowed, stated that a cert. was required (if so, which ones) or slapped on the bum with a big indelible FAKE. ? "

David B.

October 31, 2003 Bill Weiss

Gambling
BRIAN R; OK, so maybe what I should have said was; poker is not always gambling when played in the organized situation that I do! Is that more believable? Seriously, if you were to accuse a professional poker player of being a gambler, they would laugh at you.

PS The Grinnels MIGHT be real!

October 31, 2003 Chris

That ain't no 5 gallon bucket
I have a batch of 5 gallon buckets out in the garage.
That one isn't tall enough. I bet it is a 2.5 gallon bucket,
or that is one big kitty cat.

Chris - still typing with my thumb

October 31, 2003 Jim Whitford-Stark

Christo

I'd be happy to do it.
Sorry for slow reply but finally managed to get out of my old office before they started tearing down the wall. 22 years accumulation of maps, books and reprints takes some moving!!

October 31, 2003 11.52 am Colin Judd UK http://mysite.freeserve.com/xzephyr_Japan_stamps
 

Colin

October 31, 2003 David Benson

Christo, there are hundreds of variants of the franks and some are handstamped and some are printed. Some of the rarer ones are collected as cut outs as they are so scarce but commoner ones are usually collected as full envelopes. The franks of Victoria and Tasmania were used by many different departments and some, especially the Tasmanian are scarce and are collected as cut outs especially by Topical collectors,

David B.

October 31, 2003 Matthias Bock

Brian: Without the bucket, he says, but what about the cat...? ;-)

October 31, 2003 Brian R

I love it
The stamp marketing award of the day is given to this seller. For uncovering a new way to promote kiloware. LOL

October 31, 2003 Christo van Zyl

David Benson: Thank you. I was expecting that for the cut-out. What caught me was that the print said postmaster frank.

Pro: Yor 35 lb box sounds like my kind of stuff too! I can sit for hours just relentlessly going through these lots of bulk material others figure are to much work. I have time to spare (only for stamps that is), I get the lots for cheap, and I find excellent items in these! But sometimes also big sighs when you get these treasures, but they are really dinged! I bought the Lincoln album today (R1000 or ~ $145), and it looks to be really be a good buy. Some good cancels, some classic material from a lot of countries etc. I would like to preserve the album and pass it on at a later stage, but I don't know the amount of effort it will take to get the stamps out without damaging the pages. The previous owner used stamp sheet margins as hinges!!
 

October 31, 2003 Brian R

October 31, 2003 David Benson

Christo, the Victoria 2s.6 is nice and clean and shows the cds. part of a duplex. It is a late use of the 1st. duplex. The cut out is almost worthless (sorry) as they are only collected in Australia on full envelopes.

David B.

October 31, 2003 prometheus

Guess I should add Downunders are featured.
BILL W - Thanks for the response
So it seems that just as I am ready to Join the Bay community and unload all my unwanted/unneeded material if I ain't a professional I should not even worry about it.

 

October 31, 2003 prometheus <Prometheus@1Internetdrive.com> http://interestingcancels.mysite.freeserve.com/
 

Things from an Album I bought
I am gutting an album today also( 4 stamps for me) the rest for my pile
The Stamps have Overprints , cancels and perfins, a couple of Cinderellas they can be seen on the pages of my site linked above look till monday when all new views will appear.
And all the Overprints are just one of sets so if anyone thinks badd whole sets are.

This Album was not played with since 1952 according to previous owner.
Roger H on page 5 I have two swiss which one for my book?

Comments or requests for Views of what might be in Album are readily accepted.
 

October 31, 2003 Bill Weiss

Gambling
PROMO; One last thought as I go out the door......poker is NOT considered to be "gambling" when it's played in the organized fashion that I do. It may be gambling when 6-8 neighbors get together on Friday night and they play 15 different kinds of games, with "wild" cards, etc. Casino poker is usually only 3 games; Hold-em (what I play), 7-card stud and Omaha. Professional poker players (of which I am not a member of THAT club!) do not consider poker gambling. They make a good living at it just like anybody who learns a skill, whether they be an attorney, steel-worker or stamp dealer, and they do not gamble. Got to run.

October 31, 2003 10:05 Ken Srail

You'd probably get the exact same bid, maybe even a little more for "style points"...

October 31, 2003 Christo van Zyl

Now here is a nice cancel. Maybe some of the Australian crowd (David B, Greg I or Marius) can help with this Colac (Victoria) cancel. I have also found this Postmaster Frank (Victoria) stamp with Melbourne cancel. Any ideas on these? i found these in an old collection i a Lincoln Album I have bought today.
 

October 31, 2003 Bill Weiss

#482A Lot
PROMO; I need to run, but you make a good point. If all 297 are really only #482s, then the lot catalogs $147.00 and to buy it at $45. or so would be no big deal.....BUT what if it ends up selling for, say, $300., and that price was arrived at by bidders because of his puffed-up descriptions? I don't have a problem with the gambling aspect of the listing, only the possible misleading descriptions of the seller. Why didn't he just say this; "Here are 297 copies of the 2c 1814 Imperf stamp with Schermack perforations. Scott value $147.00, but who knows - could there be a #482A lurking in the lot?" Or some such less misleading description.

October 31, 2003 prometheus

Bill W
thw 482a question - are the 297 shermacks worth the 40 bucks , Did you consider that a lot of the Hits were just from the lurkers that have seen that link posted on at least 9 boards I know of.
Have you no Hope in miracles, Can not lightning strike sometimes?
I (what do I know) find his marketing fairly astute , with 1000's of items listed he needs to get views -views = bidders.
You play poker what is wrong with a little Internet gambling
in the form of taking him at his word that they are unsearched?

Or is your view only a complete dummy would even attempt to sell those without checking. ??

 

October 31, 2003 Alison Ruttenberg

Experts and ebay
Bill: Exactly the problem. On the one hand, there would be a clear problem with ebay refusing to recognize PF, for example. But, if Greg Stolow wanted ebay to recognize his photo "certificates," he probably would have no luck since the marketplace in general treats his certs or guarantees as a joke. The problem is where the line is inbetween (which is why anti-trust attorneys command upwards of $350-$500 per hour, LOL). This would be a huge headache for ebay. For example, it could institute what appears on the surface to be a reasonable rule: a seller cannot certify his own material. But, then what about Chris Ceremuga? He is one of the primary sources for quality and rare Western Ukrain, Skalat, Polish Expeditionary Forces, etc., and he is the recognized expert for this material. Most people who want this material contact Ceremuga first, and are more than willing to also have his expert opinion on the material. Nobody that I know of claims that Ceremuga takes advantage of his specialized expertize to manipulate the market and engage in a conflict of interest. However, Stolow expertizing his own material, big joke.

October 31, 2003 Matt Liebson

Alison: as an antitrust lawyer, I would relish the opportunity to defend a case alleging that eBay had monopoly power in any aspect of the philatelic marketplace. A lot depends on market definition but I don't think any sort of antitrust claim is going to fly using eBay as the defendant and stamps as the marketplace.

October 31, 2003 Bill Weiss

Experts
ALISON; OK, I understand the difference, but why would eBay be subject to being forced to use expertizing groups or individuals that the rest of the world's (or country) marketplace won't recognize? If eBay can show, for example, that only one out of 10 (ficticious numbers here) public auction firms will accept the opinion of expert X, why then should eBay have to accept the opinion of expert X? Or wouldn't they?

October 31, 2003 Bill Weiss

#482A x 297 copies
I am particularly annoyed that this listing (eBay #2960815058) still has not been removed. I filed the complaint night before last. I now understand that these things take time, but this is an especially fraudulent listing and description for several reasons.

First, the buyer states that if genuine, there could be over $1,000,000. worth of stamps in his lot. That's bad enough, but then he says that you have a good chance of finding ONE #482A and threrefore end up with a stamp worth $25,000/$50,000. (because that's what they sell for). Mathematically, since there were many millions of the 2c imperf stamp of this period produced and to date, only (I believe) 35 copies have been certified, the actual correct odds are more like a million to one, not 297/1 as he implies. This kind of description is both irresponsible as well as fraudulent.

So far over 740 hits have occured for the listing and the bidding is now at around $40. so he obviously hasn't convinced manby folks yet, but the listing should be removed.

October 31, 2003 Alison Ruttenberg

Anti-trust lawsuits and auctions firms
Bill Weiss: The difference is not between ebay and private auctions firms, but a marketplace like ebay that is so huge and worldwide versus an auction firm that has a smaller market share. To me, it would present a clear problem if the world's largest marketplace for collectibles (ebay) starting playing favorites with expertization firms -- but this is because ebay is so big, and playing favorites then shuts out certain expertizers out of the world's largest marketplace.

October 31, 2003 Bill Weiss

Expert Committees
Scott Trepel makes a most interesting discussion as it relates to auction houses deciding which expert committees to recognize and the anti-trust ramifications thereof. He maintains that his particular choice is based on his peception of what the marketplace wants. I have no reason to doubt his sincerity and accept his observation, but what would happen if the auction firm only honors the opinion of, let's say, one US expert committee and when asked why, responds with a fuzzy answer or no answer or a questionable answer? I am wondering if then a competing expert committee would have a legitimate (legal) complaint? ALISON implies that the anti-trust rules would be different for a private auction firm versus eBay. Is that correct Alison?

October 31, 2003 Alison Ruttenberg

Other Countries and Addie's artwork
Brian R: You are quite correct that even if the US Attorney does not care about Addie's artwork, other countries might feel differently and force ebay to do something. This is how the Country of France strongarmed Yahoo into changing their policies and not permitting the sale of Nazi memorabilia on Yahoo auctions.

October 31, 2003 Dave P

Chris OUCH!!!

October 31, 2003 Chris

Dammit
Last night the ice storm that Alison was out in claimed me as a victim.
I fell down my front steps and tried to put my hand through the railing.
This did not work, and I ended up with my right ring finger bent at an angle
not seen in nature. The ER staff was very nice (the triage guy took one look at it
and had me iced and ibuprofened in about 30 seconds) and I got x-rayed, set and
splinted in about an hour. I am now typing with one hand and my thumb.
Pain isn't bad, but this is annoying. The ER had a lot of fall type accidents.
The lady with the broken tailbone was a lot less happy than I was.

Chris - after I got back from the ER i spent a while working on stamps to calm down

October 31, 2003 prometheus

Jim W
Thanks for the reply- just asking my normal inane questions.
Do you consider all mail on a first flight Philatelic?
Or just First /First
for example with more than one Zepp in service could not a regular piece of mail be used on a first flight of the Hindenburg that has all the fancy marks ,but by then the service was regular use and items sent on the First Hindenburg flight Might just be normal mail?

 

October 31, 2003 07:14 Jim Watson

Today in Postal History
Prometheus,
I would agree that today's registered airmail cover is obviously philatelic. It is also a domestic usage entirely within Switzerland. I have not made much of a deal of trying to sort out the philatelic-non-philatelic usages. More often than not it is obvious as in all the first flights, complete sets of stamps, etc. I think that with a few exceptions, the covers did some sort of postal duty and were generally handled in accord with postal procedures. The recent Wilkins cover was an exception.

October 31, 2003 Scott Trepel <strepel@siegelauctions.com>

Anti-Trust
Alison is 100% correct. I love anti-trust law (it's a hobby).

There are two issues, and they could be applied to ANY auction firm, including my own.

The first is:
Is there an effort by one or more of the dominant market players to set the rules to favor one expertizing service over others, or to undermine one or more expertizers, thus reducing competition in the marketplace for expertizing services and/or creating a more favorable enviironment for the dominant market player?

The second issue is:
What are the damages and to whom should they be awarded (the expertizers, the consumers, or both?)

These anti-trust considerations must be balanced against another issue: How can the auction firm establish the final arbitrator when there is a dispute over opinions between two auction firms? And how can that be done without creating the appearance of anti-trust activity?

For example, if we sell a stamp as Mint Never Hinged "on extension" subject to certification, and the P.F. says "Genuine, Previously Hinged", but PSE says "Genuine Never Hinged", which opinion takes precedence? How do we establish policy without appearing to favor one over the other?

This is the stuff of litigators' dreams. Frankly, I don't worry too much about it becuase it would be extremely difficult to assess damages and there are many obstacles to proving anti-trust activity. We are basically following the market's command, and the market tells us to use the P.F. as the final word.

I would love for the ASDA to hire legal consultants to evaluate this issue and recommend a policy that is fair and addresses the anti-trust issues. Maybe Ebay could pay the legal bill?

October 31, 2003 Scott Trepel <strepel@siegelauctions.com>

Shoemaker Hypothesis
Randy asked what I do when presented with a group of uncertified questionable items. It's easy.

The Scott U.S. Specialized Catalogue, p. 5, states (in bold):
"Values for early and VALUABLE (my emphasis) stamps are for examples with certificates of authenticity from acknowledged expert committees, or examples sold with the buyer having the right of certification."

Also, p. 51, after Scott 318:
"All examples of Scott 316-318 must be accompanied by certificates of authenticity issued by recognized expertizing committees."

There are other similar cautionary statements.

Therefore, I always have the Scott Catalogue to justify pre-sale certification.

There are other postings to respond to, so I'll be back.

October 31, 2003 prometheus <Prometheus@1Internetdrive.com>

Christo
Don't worry about it I have 35 pounds of stamps and most of my day is spent taking care of my three year old so I have lots of time to look at stamps. Besides it gives me something to do and I'm finding
more interesting stuff in this box.

October 31, 2003 prometheus

Jim W - Todays card
Your page says Domestic Use but would not you consider That a cover made up JUST for stamp collector types.??

October 31, 2003 prometheus

Happy Reformation Day
Why Isn't The Discussion of fakes and Forgeries being held on the Ebay Board??????

Would this material/postings last anytime in it's own thread on the collectible board??

I find it Odd that Real discussions about what most of us consider a serious matter are taking place Not on their provided venue.

" eBay encourages open communication between members of the eBay community. We provide this discussion board for collectors, experts and friends to chat with each other. We invite and encourage all members of the eBay community to use this discussion board. This board is not connected in any way with the company, and any messages are solely the opinion and responsibility of the person posting the message. "

Found some nice stamps to lick and stick today. Packages are much nicer looking with old stamps on them.

Yes Reformation Day I am a Martin Luther Fan
 

October 31, 2003 03:48 Jim Watson

October 31, 2003 David Benson

Christo, good example, a fiscally used Northern Rhodesia 20s. KGV is a good spacefiller and is available at a heavily discounted price., The 20s. is currently cat. in Gibbons at 170 Pounds and a nice postally used example should realise about $75-$90. Fiscally used would only be about 1/4 of that. It is only when the catalogue value of a postal cancel is mentioned should there be any change to description.

David B.

October 31, 2003 Christo van Zyl

Sorry, I mucked up the link. Here is the fiscal cancel now.
 

October 31, 2003 Christo van Zyl

David B, David P, Marius: Re the discussion of fiscal cancels on postage stamps. I would agree to a seller stating that there is a fiscal cancel on the stamp. I don't know if I agree on the $1 value for them though. Sellers shouldn't deceive through their descriptions. But if the buyers are aware that these are fiscally marked, then it is an open market place hich decides on the value to be put on it.

Myself am currently selling a lot of Northern Rhodesia KG V with a 20/- stamp with a .jpg>fiscal cancel. Postally used example cats at $200, and SG would even be higher. I think that a lot of collectors are unable to fork out that amount of money - I would think that if such a person is looking for a good copy of an expensive stamp, that is a good alternative.

October 31, 2003 David Benson

Dave P., it is not only GB Postal Fiscals but any Postal Fiscals that have been fiscally used. In some cases, when catalogue value has been quoted, they should be treated the same way. Inform the seller that the item is incorrectly described, either change or zap. In some case it is the buyers ignorance but that is no excuse as the wording of the description doesn't mention fiscally used. I know that this may beyond Ebay and the APS Watch Committee capacity but if ever GB decides to copy the US system it will be of major importance.

David B.

October 31, 2003 Dave P

David B I totally agree with you about the HV's with revenue cancels. On the same theme there are the UK Postal Fiscals. Because they are listed in Gibbons they are regularly listed on Ebay, quoting cat number and often value. 95% (or more) of those listed have fiscal cancels and as you know are worth a tiny fraction of the postally used. Don't know whether it ignorance or a deliberate attempt to deceive by the sellers, but some at least sell for stupid prices.

October 31, 2003 Christo van Zyl

Here are the Cancels of the Day 3. They are all on Denmark stamps. A few are not so clear, especially as the stamps are too small to host a complete CDS.
The following cancels are present:


Svendborg (9/11/1953), Kobnhavn (17/7/1951), Fredericia (28/8/1956), Kobnhavn (20/9/1942), Grena (3/10/1969), Faborg? (11/2/??) and Kolding/Koelding?? (20/8/1897).


There is a variety of cancellers present. I know the single ring and the double ringe CDS. What are the ones with the split centers and vertical bars called?


Then I would also like to know what the numbers/letters at the bottom of the CDS's mean. There is a large 1, some have * * *, and others have OMK
Regards

October 30, 2003 David B.

Brian, what I can't realise is that with the new regulations coming into force this week and the forms that the seller has to agree to before an item is listed, is why Addies modern manufactured muck is allowed to continue to be sold albeit with an indelible mark on the reverse. I would have presumed that the APS have read the listings when he tried to sell his business that he admitted that he had the handstamps and the equipment for the manufacture of the prints. That should have been enough evidence to show that the material was being made by himself which should have been good enough reason to disallow the sales.


David B.

October 30, 2003 Brian R

last post
I'm off too bed now, but I've got a question of Alison. Say someones forging stamps of some another country, and that country wakes up suddenly to whats happening. Isn't ebay in serious jeopardy of being sued as a co-conspirator for allowing it (especially because they've been repeatedly notified)?

October 30, 2003 David Benson

Marius, thanks, but there are hundreds of examples. There is a problem with Scott's notation about fiscally used and that also should be remedied.

Brian, There have been many emails sent to various PO's regarding Addies replicas but they have all been ignored.

David B.

October 30, 2003 Brian R

Addies quap
I think the best thing to combat his sludge, is a letter from an issuing country he's defrauding, to ebay. Didn't Canada have a problem when they saw examples of his "art"?

October 30, 2003 Marius

Fiscals
HERE is a perfect example of what David is talking about. Quoting postally used price and suppling a fiscally cancelled stamp. The 10s is fiscal and the 5s looks cleaned or at least a very light cancel.
Total real value $1 each.

October 30, 2003 David Benson

Chris, mainly because the value of postage stamps with fiscal cancels are not considered postally used and their value is very much lower than postally used. Some sellers quote postally used prices when the stamps have obvious fiscal cancels. Some fiscal and telegraphic cancels are more difficult to determine and these are usually only worth a small fraction of genuinely postally used. If a catalogue value is shown then the listing should be changed or terminated. It is common practice for some sellers to list Hi face Value KEVII & KGV with obvious fiscal cancels and catalogue value noted. The sellers know about it because I am many others have informed them on numerous occasions yet continue listing them.

David B.

 

October 30, 2003 Chris

Question About High Value Commonwealth
D2 You mention high values with fiscal cancels as a problem area.
What do you recommend eBay do, not allow them to be sold, or have fiscal
cancel prominently in the description?

Chris - not bothered by fiscal cancels, if the stamps are cheap

October 30, 2003 Alison Ruttenberg

Counterfeit stamps
David: I have read the article now. Are you interested in how this applies to Addie, and if this makes his actions criminal? The problem is that US Supreme Court case I posted about on the other board about a year ago. In that case, the Court held that the US Congress did not intend to criminalize the making of fake foreign stamps for sale to collectors. Any US Attorney's office in deciding whether to charge someone like Addie, is going to read that case and take a step back. Of course that is an old case, and the law has since been amended and strengthened. If there is any interest, I will look for that old case again and post it tomorrow.

October 30, 2003 Alison Ruttenberg

Anti-trust lawsuits
Bill: The problem is that ebay is not just another "auction house." From a legal standpoint, there is a huge, huge difference. The problem is that ebay is the largest marketplace in the world, and only ebay, not other auction houses, would/ should have anti-trust concerns. If an expertizer's opinions were barred from the biggest marketplace in the world, arbitrarily or capriciously, then there is going to be a problem.

By the way, some people wonder why I keep coming up with this stuff. It is the litigator's mindset, always looking at the downside, always looking for a way to muck things up with a litigation theory. This is what my clients hire me to do (at least the civil ones, the criminal ones hire me to find ways to muck things up with novel constitutional and procedural theories). Anyway, this is all just hypotethical for me. I have no actual interest in starting any of this litigation, I just see it as a possibility (and therefore, so would ebay lawyers).

October 30, 2003 David Benson

Alison, it is 3/4 down on this page,

http://www.ustreas.gov/usss/money_illustrations.shtml

David B.

October 30, 2003 Bill Weiss

"Approved Experyizers"
ALISON; My last post of the night, but I beg to disagree with your statement that non-approved expertizers would have a good anti-trust case. Virtually EVERY public auction firm that I am aware of has a limited group of expertizing bodies they will recognize. Some (quite a few) US auction firms will only recognize ONE expert committee on US stamp extensions. I have never heard of a competing committee sueing an auction firm because that auction firm won't accept their opinions. Now if you seriously feel that a non-approved expertizing group (or individual) CAN sue an auction firm, or eBay, I sure would like to hear how that works from your perspective as an attorney. Goodnight.

October 30, 2003 Alison Ruttenberg

Various
David B: No, I cannot find the link. What is the URL?

Bill Weiss: In effect, ebay already has that policy, they just do not enforce it. They require sellers to guarantee the genuineness of what they sell and do not allow sellers to sell As IS as to whether genuine or not. As least, this is Dan Neary's interpretation of its rules. Problem is, ebay does not enforce this.

October 30, 2003 David Benson

Randy, thanks, you sound like a very concsientious philatelist who is happy to help clean the mess, no matter how much work and time it takes, keep up the good work. I wish you good luck,

David Benson

October 30, 2003 Bill Weiss

ALISON; Glad to see that you also have a real life other than lurking on this board! Thanks for your input. Randy asked the question of Scott Trepel earlier as to how he would handle such stamps in a public auction format. Scott apparently hasn't visited here lately, but I am pretty sure he would answer just as I would - since I also run public auctions. We would advise the owner that these stamps can not be sold without accompanying expert certificates, or, at the very least, that without certificates, the prices realized will be so disportionately low compared to selling with certificates, that they stand to lose a great deal of money. That being said, we have had many sellers still insist we run them and let the buyers pay for the certification. Now if eBay had the same sort of policies that honest public auction firms have, namely Terms of Sale which specifically allow buyers to have ANYTHING expertized that they want. No questions asked. You want to get it expertized, be my guest. Further, if the item comes back OTHER THAN AS DESCRIBED, we will refund not only the purchase price, but the costs of expertization as well. eBay could, in my opinion, if they wanted to generate confidence and goodwill in the marketplace (philatelic), establish such mandatory buyer protection policies. This then would force all sellers to agree to and adhere to, these buyer protection policies. Then, if a seller wants to waste his time (and money) by listing trimmed #315s, fake coils, etc., well hell, let him, because he's going to end up spending more on costs of expertization then he's ever going to sell.

Such a buyer protection policy would, in my opinion, cover virtually EVERY single stamp lot sold on eBay. End of problems with those lots. Group lots and collections are a tougher nut to crack, but give me time, I'll figure it out (just kidding!).

October 30, 2003 Randy Shoemaker

Legality
Boy, now that's one to ponder. The legality of being legal. The world is DOOMED.

Happy Halloween :-)

-Randy Shoemaker

October 30, 2003 Randy Shoemaker

David Benson
David -

No. But I would probably volunteer anyway.

-Randy Shoemaker

October 30, 2003 David Benson

Alison, did you see Jim.G's link to the US Treasury site about counterfeits,

David B.

October 30, 2003 David Benson

Jim,

most probably because someone at Safeharbor.UK knows something about philately unike Ebay.com.

David B.

October 30, 2003 Jim Whitford-Stark

Actually David B,
The eBay.uk site seems to be more on the ball at cancelling outrageous auctions than most of the other sites.
I could well be wrong.
I can only view the eBay.com site within a restricted time-span ( determined by which computer I'm on).

October 30, 2003 Alison Ruttenberg

Legality of requiring certificates for certain types of stamps
BillWeiss: Looks like I missed all the fun while out in the ice storm getting together Eddie's Superman costume for tomorrow. I do not see any problems, per se, with ebay banning the sale of a particular stamp without a valid certificate. The problem is going to be enforcement: What happens when one is buried in a large lot or estate sale? Would seller's of intact collections have to pull out such items from the stamp albums first? What constitutes a "valid" certificate? Only designated expertizers? I guarantee that this could spawn an anti-trust lawsuit against ebay by expertizers not on the list of "approved" expertizers. What about an old certificate? How old is too old? Etc. etc.

Example: Most collectors of post WWI overprint issues think that Western Ukraine issues (except for the cheap People' Republic set) should not be bought or sold without a certificate. My informal survey over the last couple of years is that more than 50% of Western Ukraine on ebay is fake. But, who would enforce a rule? APS? APS does not have the expertize, even the Scott catalogue cannot get the Western Ukraine right. Chris Ceremuga is the only one that most of us trust to expertize Western Ukraine. But, he also sells alot of Western Ukraine. Is this a conflict of interest? Based on some of the discussions yesterday and the day before, some would say yes. I personally say no because I trust him. But, anyway, the magnitude of all the details and the sub problems that can evolve are depressing.

October 30, 2003 David Benson

Randy, another personal quetion when you reappear,

did you know what the workload and the time constraints would be when you volunteered ?.

David B.

October 30, 2003 Randy Shoemaker

Ma' Bell
Is eBay just a phone booth and you hear the tinkle of coins when you complete a call? Deep breathing or obscene call or what ever?

Scary thought.

-Randy Shoemaker

October 30, 2003 David Benson

Jim, another problem with those is that most of them are listed on Ebay.UK where the WSC has no jurisdiction,

David B.

October 30, 2003 Randy Shoemaker

PSSS-
Bill W.-

I am enjoying the opportunity to get involved with this community. Hope I can help to shed some light on the SCW voodoo.

AS for all the recurrent problem offerings...What can we do? I'm not sure LEGALLY. Gotta' do something though!

-Randy Shoemaker

October 30, 2003 Jim Griffith <griffith@dweeb.org> http://album.dweeb.org
 

Jim

October 30, 2003 Jim Whitford-Stark

Yes David, that was exactly what I meant.

Clark
Due to time constraints, I must admit to being guilty to not scaning reverse of a stamp.
However, if someone requests a view of the reverse I will provide it.
It takes maybe 3 minutes more to upload same image to auction as an "add to description".

However, someone like a certain Dutch powerseller who wont even respond to emails is not going to change their ways.
His scans are usually good, however, and so big you have to diligently go searching for the stamp amidst the black background.

October 30, 2003 Randy Shoemaker

Clark Frazier
You ARE THE MAN!!!!!!

-Randy Shoemaker

Adios...till tomorrow

October 30, 2003 1800 Clark Frazier

315, used single
My favorite topic. The real problem is that the Scott catalog lists a value for used singles off cover. They should not. Perhaps Siegel could do a census. It would be short. Meanwhile, I need to add another stock page to hold all of the wannabes.

October 30, 2003 Randy Shoemaker

Parting Shots
Let me leave you with something to ponder...

Say I'm Scott Trepel (sorry Scott...this is just hypothetical...sort of) and I have a consignor come to me with a nice 482A sans certificate. Along with this 482A, he consigns a 356 pair, 388 pair, 491 pair and a 544 used single. None of them have certs and with my level of expertise I am somewhat less than enthusiastic about their genuiness. The consignor is expecting to get advertising and each lot photographed in color in my next US sale. Sound familiar? What do I tell the consignor about whether I will abide by his wishes and spend my valuable time and put my good name behind his consigment? (Scott - you might even chime in hear).

Let me know what you all would say to him. What would happen to my good name and the auction companies name if I let these items be listed in my catalog? What would happen to my reputation?

Till later!

PS- I have 140 emails from SCW in my inbox just from yesterday and today. I have to look at them...open the lots on eBay...consider them...type a response to the lister on SCW. Then he has to put it together to send to the APS. 140 of them...how long will that take?

-Randy Shoemaker

October 30, 2003 David Benson

Jim, I presume you mean GB Officials and not BC officials.

I would also like to see Hi Value British Commonwealth stamps with fiscal cancels also included in the list of problem items.

David B.

October 30, 2003 1756 Clark Frazier

Due Diligence
Jim Griffith,

We really are discussing due diligence on the part of the seller. A proper listing of any confusing variety should include a large enough color corrected scan, sufficient to show the shade, type, relief or other pertinent details of the stamp for all to see. If the stamp has a grill, the back should be scanned and if it has a certificate a readable scan should also be provided. The listing should describe all of the pertinent characteristics including, but not limited to, the type or relief, the watermark, and any other identifying characteristics as well as the certificate description and all defects. I realize that not all sellers are capable of scanning (easily fixed) or describing (not easily fixed) confusing varieties or detecting defects.

The real problem sellers are the ones who deliberately obfuscate their scans and know what they are selling, but sell it anyway, hoping that the buyer doesn’t find out. The market place may eventually fix part of the problem by creating the expectation for better scans and descriptions. A number of helpful posts on improving scans have appeared on StampChat and the eBay Chat Board over the last few months. Perhaps, some need to be reposted. Optimized scans aren’t all that large and will load quickly, even if the stamp is shown at 2x or 3x its actual size. If you know a seller you trust who has scans that need improvement, contact them with specific suggestions. Better scans from better sellers would make it easier for buyers to make more appropriate choices when bidding.

Postal history buyers are probably more sophisticated than the average "space filler" and have a better chance of detecting problems if the scan is reasonable. It is may be sufficient for a seller to post a good scan and let the item will sell itself assuming it is correctly categorized and has a title with some key words in it. I wish confusing types and varieties were like that. In many cases, I do not consider bidding because I can’t tell what is being offered.
 

October 30, 2003 David Benson

Jim,

It may be a problem but judging from the comments of a member of the SWC they are causing the most time and time that can be saved is extremely important to busy people. It may have teething problems but it would save a lot of work and even Safeharbor should be able to handle the problem without it even going to the SWC. Judging from the comments those particular stamps are creating the major percentage of the workload and if they can be eliminated from the process then more time can be spent on other items before the 24 hour deadline is passed. Bill brought up the subject when he mentioned that the 24 hours had passed and an item had been sold for $ 20.50. It may only be a trivial amount but the seller has a pair of scissors (or possibly now can afford a guillotine) and he will try to offload more to suckers.

David B.
 

October 30, 2003 Jim Whitford-Stark

Back from BBQ and then my computer crashed.

Jim G
I would like to see all UK and BC officials and specimens also presented with certs or marked as fakes.
If not, whammo.

October 30, 2003 Bill Weiss

RANDY; Thank you so much for your positive responses. My main concern when asking about the "minimum time" frame was simply to try to decide, for example, when I have some free time, where I should be looking. Perhaps I'll start to navigate the NEW listings first. Seems to me then, that anything I catch - or anyone else here catches - will give eBay/APS plenty of time to work.

Regarding automatic items that are widely faked, it's a great idea - but is it legal? I'm only asking. Maybe Alison can tell us - where is that girl? While I know eBay can pretty much make their own rules, do they have the legal right to automatically declare a seller's stamp as too suspect to offer? At least on a stamp by stamp basis, eBay can always say that the system in place whereby two SWC members must recommend the takedown, is fair. The other way hardly does seem fair - automatic removal solely based on frequency of fakery!

October 30, 2003 Randy Shoemaker

I've got 9 minutes left!
Any more questions?

-Randy Shoemaker

October 30, 2003 David Benson

Randy, thanks for your visit and hope to see you here in the future,

David Benson
 

October 30, 2003 Randy Shoemaker

To all-
Any more burning questions? My wife is giving me dirty looks :(
I've got to get off about 9:00PM EST.

But...it seems as though most of you are curious about the success and future of SCW/eBay so I will try to attend your sessions every evening or so. I've got bushels of REAL expertizing to do every day and my evenings must be somewhat dedicated to my family. However, if you can save up your questions to when you know I'm on the Stamp Chat board, I'll try to give you the straightest answer I can.

Sooo...any more ideas or questions? I'm always up for ideas. Every questions has meaning to more than just one person so hopefully we can answer even unasked questions by some.

-Randy Shoemaker

October 30, 2003 Jim Griffith <griffith@dweeb.org> http://album.dweeb.org
 

Jim

October 30, 2003 David Benson

Randy, thanks for your reply. I am sure all of the SWC are busy people and Ebay and the APS should be grateful for all of your efforts. I hope that none of them get frustrated by the amount of work. Becuase of the time restraints I presume the best thing to do would be increase the number of volunteers as the workload is not going to decrease.

I like Jim's idea about certain problem stamps being automatically cancelled unless it is accompanied by a valid certificate. Sound like that will decrease the workload at least for certain US items.

David Benson

October 30, 2003 Jim Griffith <griffith@dweeb.org> http://album.dweeb.org
 

Jim

October 30, 2003 Jim Griffith <griffith@dweeb.org> http://album.dweeb.org
 

Jim

October 30, 2003 Randy Shoemaker

David & Jim
Jim G.-

Excellent idea...I will bring it up tomorrow with the powers at be.

David B.-

As I just mentioned a few minutes ago...our time is GRATISIMO! We all volunteer because we want to see eBay flourish in the future and we all know what has to be done. Hope it gets done!

-Randy Shoemaker

October 30, 2003 Brian R

Noip Does anybody know why, a little over a year ago, Linn's decided to close off their archives to all but registered subscribers? It there some sort of publishing value to articles over 6 months old? I used to see plenty of links around the web to their site. I would think that kind of free publicity would be valued, not discouraged.

October 30, 2003 17:27 Jim Watson

I'd be interested in anyone's observations concerning their experience with such processes.

October 30, 2003 Jim Griffith <griffith@dweeb.org> http://album.dweeb.org
 

Jim

October 30, 2003 David Benson

Randy, sorry to ask a personal question,

are the members of the SWC being paid for their time or is it all voluntary,

David B.

October 30, 2003 David Benson

proofreader, where were you,

ANY KNOWLEDGE not NO KNOWLEDGE,

David B.

October 30, 2003 Randy Shoemaker

Jim B -
I agree with your 'slippery slope' but I do not have the time nore inclination to go over fifty 315 lots every night. Bill Weiss has a valid complaint. Unfortunately, their is not enough time to wade thru all these bogus listings. Short of that...the only ting you can REALLY do is clamp down on serial abusers and make life for them unbearable. Then...up springs another incarnation we go after. I can even smell them now when their feedback is as low as 1!

Any other ideas??? I'm open to listening to ANYthing.

-Randy Shoemaker

October 30, 2003 David Benson

David Benson
Randy,

Thank you very much for your reply, it is actually the 1st. direct reply I have had to any of my questions I have ever asked any APS representative.

There are 10,000's of thousands of British Commonwealth items listed and the are some bad ones amongst them. Is there any member of the group that has no BC knowledge. I know that you cannot speak for the knowledge of others but would be most grateful if you could make an enquiry,

David Benson

 

October 30, 2003 Jim Griffith <griffith@dweeb.org> http://album.dweeb.org
 

Jim

October 30, 2003 Randy Shoemaker

to David Benson
I for one only know US. However, from lots listed on our SCW group, I can see others are watching Germany and other European countries. I'll see if I can get you some more info on that. I really can't say others specialties at this point. I only consider US lots listed.

-Randy Shoemaker

October 30, 2003 Randy Shoemaker

To Bill Weiss, et al
Billi

As a matter of course, I personally will no longer look at used (or unused for that matter) US#315/304 as I consider them all 100% FAKE if not listed with a cert. Of the certed items, I consider another 50% of those FAKE trimmed stamps. I looked at over 150 crummy used 315's in my forst two weeks with SCW and told them I would no longer look at these lots as I consider every one of them BAD! If you looked at the THOUSANDS of chopped 304's made into 315's, you'd think 315's are worth about a nickel. Unfortunately they are worthLESS!! Why waste my valuable time on 315's????? You must admit that this is not a good use of resources.

I for one have voiced an opinion that all 315's, 316's, 318's, 321's, 322's, 349, 352, 387, 356's, 388's and 491's ONLY BE ALLOWED to be POSTED with a valid cert. THEY ARE ALL BAD and until someone can list one certified genuine one on eBay...they remain ALL BAD. Why bother past that... at least from my perspective of volunteering ALOT of time gratis. Until that happens, we are wiping out a giant ant hill one ant at a time. Mr. Watson was correct precisely on the time constraints required to get things to the APS and get a response going. Why do you see more and more 3 DAY or 1 DAY listings. Believe me...our efforts are not going un-noticed. We ARE driving some of these guys underground...burrying some...and some slip thru our net...for now!

-Randy Shoemaker

October 30, 2003 Jim Griffith <griffith@dweeb.org> http://album.dweeb.org
 

Jim

October 30, 2003 David Benson

Randy,

Just one question regarding the SWC.

How many of the 8 members have knowledge of non US material and which areas,

David Benson

October 30, 2003 Bill Weiss

BRIAN; Of course you are right.

October 30, 2003 17:01 Dave F. (moderator)

Just on briefly, and wanted to discuss something pleasant.

For those of you who subscribe to Linn's, the November 3rd issue has an article discussing a philatelic item from our own Bob Lodge. Article is the "Dollar Signs" column by Charles Snee, page 66.

(Apologies to those without a copy of Linn's. I assume it is not available on their website without a subscription. Since they started charging for everything on there, I stopped visiting. I would have thought they would have a more attractive price break for their print subscribers.)

October 30, 2003 Brian R

Bill W
I'm not so sure that having a direct link to the SWC is such a good idea. Not all of the poster/lurkers of this board have the best of intentions. For evidence, notice how fast some sellers show up, once they hear a link is on here for one of their auctions, and their getting picked on. The obvious cause is someone here is looking to stir the pot. I wouldn't be hard to overwhelm a committe with volumes of spurious reports. Who would serve on such a volunteer committee, under such circumstanses? It may be best they remain faceless to the masses.

October 30, 2003 Bill Weiss

Fake #315
That 5c 1908 imperf (eBay item #2959972351) only sold for $20.10 so the guy who bought it probably won't starve, but that's not the point. As I said below, suppose the item sold for thousands. Can eBay negate the sale AFTER it has sold when it was reported BEFORE being sold? If not, why not? So if me, or some other good samaritan contacts the buyer NOW, then we are guilty of auction interference!

October 30, 2003 Bill Weiss

Reporting Fraudulent Items
RANDY S; THanks for your comments and I'm sure that both you and JIM W. are correct that "it takes time" but let me ask you this; how much time would you consider to be the minimum amount it would take? Of the two lots I reported last night, the trimmed 5c 1908 imperf (#315) has now sold without being yanked, so OK, I didn't spot it in time, but what consitutes a reasoable amount of notice? Also, can items be reported directly to the SCW or must it all come from eBay?

October 30, 2003 Brian R

Anyone else seeing more high level items showing up, and do any of you care to speculate, if the ongoing purge has anything to do with it?

October 30, 2003 16:33 Jim Watson

Just my ½¢

October 30, 2003 Randy Shoemaker <randyshoemaker@netscape.net> http://www.psestamp.com
 

SCW-eBay-APS
I note from a few of the past days 'chats', there are questions about what kind of 'reporting' SCW gives the APS. I can tell you from my personal experience since the inception of this relationship, that the SCW group reports just about everything you can think of as far as fraud and misrepresentation go. Be it chopped down 304's, inaccurate catalog values, fake coils, unfair terms of sale, innappropriate use of secret auctions, fake stamps, fake covers, poor scanning to deceive bidders, use of 'little old lady collection' descriptions, relisting...over and over again of dinged lots, etc., etc.

If some of you thought our scope was narrow, believe me, it's not. Unfortunately, it takes LOTS of time to go thru thousands of lots looking for 'problem children'. There is a fair 'pile' EACH DAY and most are sent to the APS. The APS assets are limited by the available resources of that organization. So far in the experimental stage...things are going reasonably well. Judging by the metrics, we see definite progress. We hope to be more comprehensive in the future but as I posted some months ago when the word on SCW first went out to the 'chats', we must learn to walk before we can run. Each group in this alliance of eBay, SCW and APS is making every possible effort to bring about necessary changes to streamline this process. Give us some time and I would guess you will be pleasantly surprised. But...this is a daunting task and cannot be done on the turn of a dime. Chin up tho'...we are working hard at it!

If you have any questions, I would be glad to answer any reasonable query.

-Randy Shoemaker

October 30, 2003 Bill Weiss

eBay Report
You will remember that last evening I reported two fraudulent listings to eBay to see if they would be pulled off as a result of the APS/eBay relationship. Well, I am disappointed to say that both of the listings are still there 24 hours later, and the one (a trimmed used US 5c 1908 imperf (#315) goes off within the next 35 minutes and has, so far, over $20. bid on it. Now as part of my report to eBay I did mention to them that I was a qualified expert who worked for both APEX and PSE - thinking that might help speed things up! Obviously, it did not. Now I do understand that the #315 listing was kind of close, but suppose it was something that sold for thousands of dollars and was fraudulent? If eBay can't get a fraudulent listing off in 24 gours, I am not convinced this policy is very valuable. On the other hand, I am especially anxious about the second lot, which, at the time I reported it, still had nearly 5 days. Let's see if, and when, that one comes down.

October 30, 2003 David Benson

Jim, nicer London MB on Chile, never seen one before.

sorry, I don't know Australian modern rates, (1940 is modern to me), possibly an overweight letter, I think Registered was 8 1/2d but not sure,

have to go out now, PO, Bank and Lunch in that order,

David B.

October 30, 2003 Jim Whitford-Stark

Another link to moveable boxes and a question at bottom of page which seem to be right up David B's street, so to speak.

October 30, 2003 prometheus

David B
Yes Must be Eketahuna Measuring CDS there would be room for E and under 10x the LI is a U

October 30, 2003 David Benson

promo, most smaller offices used cds. unlike the larger offices which used duplexes with heavy killers.

David B.

October 30, 2003 prometheus

David B
I only collect Used stamps and it is filling hole right now.
when I have more than one of any stamp I always try to pick better cancel UNLESS it has part of something else - Mail room, epoxs, ship mail, Regis.. etc. or a color ink

October 30, 2003 Jim Whitford-Stark

Christo

I'm getting a file not found on your French BM link.
Is it just me?

October 30, 2003 David Benson

Promo, check the NZ, are you sure it's not Eketahuna,

David B.

October 30, 2003 David Benson

Promo, has to be, there is no other cancel it could be apart from Eketahuna. Still a nice item and worth keeping if you collect cds's. on NZ.

David B.

October 30, 2003 prometheus

David B
Could be an E missing from front of the town name and the U part might be what I read as a LI slight gap in bottom of U maybe

October 30, 2003 prometheus

son cancels - christo
OK so I looked at 5000 stamps and found 11 that qualify ,clear readable almost complete, I guess that countries that use large CDS
would make them impossible except in cases of large stamps.
Christo have started filling an envelope for you.
Only one I might keep is a nice new zealand ketahlina 1899
 

October 30, 2003 Christo van Zyl

Dave P: Thanks for your surname - sometimes one kind of lose track of ebay handles! Just a general statement here. I am not trying to collect all of the GB and French MB cancels on cover etc. These cancels I am displaying is mainly material I picked out of my accumulations etc. If I see a nice CDS, or any other fancy cancel - in it goes.

Bjorn M: The Odder 2 came up for disccussion sometime last year on the ebay chat board. Knuden gave some nice pics of the development of these cancels etc on covers and postal stationery. I have retained that discusion and worked it in as well.

October 30, 2003 Dave P

Christo I had just found my reference to the French BM cancels when I saw your post below. To get a full set of GB and French marks on cover would be a real task. The only example of the Newhaven MB I remember seeing was in an entry at (I think) London Stampex several years ago.
"P" is Parsons, not Phillips, "orthorpteran" on Ebay.

October 30, 2003 Christo van Zyl

Bjorn M: :-) I can only laugh at myself. I copied and posted your comments, and while I was working it in there it just jumped out at me - my apologies!

October 30, 2003 12:09 Bjorn Munch

Cancels
You're right. While W doesn't occur in Norwegian names, that doesn't prevent then from building a shopping centre and calling it DOWNTOWN.

And didn't I tell you that 78 is Vordingborg?
 

October 30, 2003 Christo van Zyl

Maybe Knud Erik can help wit the P O name for the target 78 cancel?
 

October 30, 2003 11:42 Bjorn Munch

Cancels
Yes, the middle one. Neither rare nor early, just very nice. Especially since it will be sitting next to its "big brother" 24 SKILL in my album, this has an even nicer KRAGERØ which is also slanted to the left.

As for other cancels: yes, Porsgrunn is big enough to have sevaral post offices with their own names, but I can't guess form the letters you quote, except that it can't ba a W. ANKERTORGET on your first scan is a sub-office in OSLO. 78 is Vordingborg. TOG in the ODDER cancel means train. As for the '3' in ODENSE C (C for Central), I don't know. Maybe just the number of the cancel? A large office like Odense C would have a number of hand cancels.

Please don't use the JPGs from the catalogue, it's copyrighted material and I really shouldn't have put it up...
 

October 30, 2003 Christo van Zyl

Bjorn M: I am just guessing - the center one - maybe rare town, early useage?

October 30, 2003 Christo van Zyl

For cancels of day 2:

Luxembourg (Esch-S-L'Alzette, 22/?/18??), Norway (Porsgrunn, 12/11/1993), Denmark (Odder 2 TOG, 27/10/18??), Norway (Egersund 1370, 12/12/1973), Portugal (Lisboa Central R, 21/8/1928), Denmark (Odensec 3, 25/9/1989) and France (Southampton France MB, 22/11/1900).
 

October 30, 2003 Christo van Zyl

The next step is to make this info available to all who is interested. In order to keep results forthcoming, I will post the comments for each page from my book of cancels, once that particular page has been completed. It should take 9 days of links, plus another day to update and then to publish/upload. This brings me to the question of how do I make it accessible. Do I email the Word document to anyone interested, can Dave F maybe take that Word document and convert it to a HTML document on his site, or should one create a web site for this project. I have absolutely no knowledge on website maintenance and creation, and I don't know if I become involved in that, whether it will distract me from my real interest (the France - USA covers for the period 1849 - 1876). Any suggestions will be welcome.
Further, do you think that the scans are to big, too small or OK? Would we benefit by having larger images?
 

October 30, 2003 Christo van Zyl

Prom: Yes, those would be welcome! You are quite right about how difficult these types of cancels are to find once one starts looking for them! So consider the luxury cancels of Bjorn - they must be upright, well centered, complete with crisp and clear lettering -it will take ages to get a decent collection of these going.
 

October 30, 2003 prometheus

Bjorn
I'm guessing the Numeral cancel

October 30, 2003 10:47 Bjorn Munch

SON Cancels
Speaking of which: guess which of the three stamps made be BIN this item?
 

October 30, 2003 10.18 am Colin Judd UK

Please note that there is an unofficial strike of postal workers affecting London, Essex and some other counties in the south. Post boxes are being sealed to prevent people posting and building an even greater backlog. We are advised not to post items that go through London – as all post from overseas does. I’ll post again when the matter settles. Colin

October 30, 2003 prometheus

Thanks for the insight Roger
As I am looking at a cover there think I am OK .

October 30, 2003 Roger Heath

German Auction Error
Pro -
Thanks for the link to the German Auction site. Really great scans, but sometime they show up errors, such as lot #2379 Switzerland.
The period of validity for this stamp was 14 November 1920 - 1 March 1923, though in reality the stamps were only used on air flights between 14 November 1920 - 14 January 1921. The first complete set of Swiss airs was issued on March 1 1923. So the illustrated stamp with “guarantee” is a remainder used by the PO for internal accounting purposes, since it is cancelled Aarau 27 VII 23. Should be severely discounted from catalogue value as prices are for flown stamps with confirmable dates.

Roger

October 30, 2003 prometheus <Prometheus@1Internetdrive.com> http://interestingcancels.mysite.freeserve.com/
 

Christo your SON cancels
When you posted your fist batch I thought well that should be easy to do,
Then I started looking thru stamps.
It is very hard to find SON that are readable/clear and I now understand the challenge that you have undertaken.
Would you like the two oldies shown on the last page of my site linked above.

October 30, 2003 prometheus

Lars + Matthias
Thanks for the reply

October 30, 2003 Lars Boettger <alpha2 at pt dot lu>

Aix-Phila
prometheus

Visited their booth on the Sindelfingen Stamp Fair a week ago, good stuff, one of the larger German auction houses.

October 30, 2003 Matthias Bock

German auction house
prometheus: Familiar in so far that I know the name of the house. No direct buying experience. Maybe you should ask at the german Ebay stamp board, I think one or two of the regulars have bought there before.

October 30, 2003 Jim Whitford-Stark

Moveable Box
The French version had Angl. BM instead of MB.
I have only seen example from St Malo.

October 30, 2003 Chris

More eBay user ID analysis
I've been doing a bunch more searches on random IDs and then following feedback trails.
It looks like a lot of the IDs that actually were doing transactions went dark in 2000.
This makes sense as 2000 was the economic meltdown here.
Plus eBay is no longer young, hip and withit, my guess is that most active users of eBay
are over 30. Looking at just the chat boards, my guess would be over 40.

Chris - after you're over the hill, you pick up speed

October 30, 2003 prometheus

link failed retry here
HERElink

October 30, 2003 prometheus <Prometheus@1Internetdrive.com>

GERMAN Auction House
Anybody that reads/lurks/posts Here famalair with this place

Found an Item I Really Really want and am looking for positive comments on their material.

Roger H - they have some really nice swiss stuff.

October 30, 2003 Jim Whitford-Stark

Vic

This was the first time I found out they even had a cancel.
I will try to exploit methods of obtaining cancel on letters.

Possessor of 3 eBay ID's that I'm willing to own up to.

October 30, 2003 Mauro Mowszowicz

Christo, i agree, navigating their listings sometimes is awkward, why you dont ask them for the printed catalog? im sure they will mail it to you
Regards

Mauro

October 30, 2003 Victor Horadam <horadam1@airmail.net>

Jim W-S: Have you tried sending a letter from there, and asking the postman to stamp it with that Sul Ross Station marking, knowing it will still get the central station postmark later? If they will do it, you can send one to me, and I'll return it to you.

October 30, 2003 prometheus

Excellant Cancel discussion
Thanks to all for their postings on Christo's cancels
The info available here is tremendous.


Dave F - Hope you and yours are doing OK

POSTAL NOTE - did anyone see the little shot on the news last night of the people returning to their Burnt Out house
Mail had been delievered
and the Guy was holding his Car payment reminder
next to what little was left of his Car.
Anyone Out there going to try to save some Singed Mail.

October 30, 2003 Christo van Zyl

Cancels of the Day
There has been a couple of responses in - I'll try and revert to them all later tonight from home

October 30, 2003 Christo van Zyl

Mauro: I have visited the lugdunum website as you have suggested - s you're right - they have some nice material. I am a bit fed up with searching their lots though - when you try and move to the next page it reverts to the previous auction lots one was viewing, if one forgot to close a photo windo, you are unable to refresh a page etc.

October 30, 2003 Mauro Mowszowicz

Matt L: Thanks!
 

October 30, 2003 Matt Liebson

Mauro: I can check my literature tonight but it does look like Strasburg to me.

October 30, 2003 Lars Boettger <alpha2 at pt dot lu>

Cancels
Christo

The one from Luxembourg is actually "Esch-Sur-Alzette", 2nd largest city in Luxembourg, the cancellation ist of the so-called "small French-type", in use from about 1840-1880 (rough estimate).

October 30, 2003 04:45 Ken Srail

However the REAL number that everyone is interested in is the one eBay won't publish (LOL!) How many UNIQUE, active users are there? My guess is that the number is around 10-15M. MANY people have multiple ID's (I seem to recall a study once which found that the "average" user has more than 2 - many users have "dozens".)

October 30, 2003 Mauro Mowszowicz

Jim W, thanks for your quick reply, STRASBURG definitely fits the blank spaces ... any other options are possible or i should stick with this one?
Regards

Mauro

October 30, 2003 04:26 Jim Watson

Ohio Town
Mauro,
How about Struthers (Mahoning County) or possibly Strasburg (Tuscarawas County)?

October 30, 2003 Mauro Mowszowicz

sorry ... here is the correct link

October 30, 2003 Mauro Mowszowicz <sales(AT)urured.com> http://www.uruguaystamps.com
 

Hi, just found a small US cover and need to ID the city of origin, it reads STxxxxxxxG, OH (1893 low val. Columbians to Switzerland)
this is the cover, any help appreciated!
Regards

Mauro

October 30, 2003 Jim Lawler

Jim L.

October 30, 2003 03:52 Jim Watson

Today in Postal History
Good Morning, Everyone!
Today's dated postal history item is a first flight airmail cover from the Belgian Congo to Belgium in 1936. The cover did double duty having been first flown from Belgium to the Belgian Congo.

October 30, 2003 Dave P

Mobile box
London example here.

October 30, 2003 Dave P

Mobile Box
Christo Yes the town name appears where Southampton does on your example. here is a London example. The system was set up as a result of the Anglo-French postal convention in 1943. I enabled items to be posted later than normal last collection times, and aboard private ships. The boxes were fastened to the deck of the ship (and sometimes to the dock-side prior to sailing). On arrival they were taken to the post-office where they were unlocked, cancelled with the dictinctive stamps, and put into the post-stream, usually saving a day on delivery times.
At first the stamps were cancelled with a boxed "MB" with the ordinary date stamp alongside. Later distinctive cancels in the form of a rectangle with chamfered corners were used and can be found from the 1850's onwards. They can be found from London, Southampton, Guernsey, Jersey, Dover, Folkstone, Weymouth and Newhaven. Later the circular types were used in London and Southampton. The scheme finally stopped at the outbreak of WWll in 1939. Cancels can be found on both GB and French stamps. Similar arrangements must have been in place at the French ports, but I do not have a note of the cancellations employed.

October 30, 2003 Christo van Zyl

Dave P: Am I correct that the name of the Port (e.g. Newhaven) would be located and in the place of where Southhampton is in my example?


Just to elucidate me on the use of these movable mail boxes. They were placed on the dockside for the sailors to put their mail in, or is it rather mail posted on board the ship at sea, or is it both?

October 30, 2003 David Benson

Dave P, no it is not, it is only material listed on the US site,

that was the point I was trying to find out a few days ago before further info was forthcoming,

David B.

October 30, 2003 Dave P

APS/Ebay
The news is encouraging. One thing I am not clear on, does it apply to items listed through .com, or on all items appearing on .com. If an item is listed on another site, but is available world-wide o it appears on USA listing, is it covered?

October 30, 2003 David Benson

Colin, I think the coach's excuse was that he failed maths at school,

David B.

October 30, 2003 Colin Judd UK

Colin, who knows nothing and cares less about Rugby!

October 30, 2003 David Benson

Christo, MB stands for Movable Box or Boite Mobile. They were placed on the dockside for ship's mail.

David B.

October 30, 2003 Christo van Zyl

I think I should collect all the comments that come in on these cancels and add them to the stock book. Might make an interesting collecion/reading in future!!

October 30, 2003 Christo van Zyl

Bjorn M: Thanks for that scan, it will come in handy! I must admit that I didn't know about a cancel having to be also upright for a cancel to be called superb!

John Cunningham: Thanks for posting some of your images. I think you err when you think people will not be interested in what you collect! Why don't you try and show us some of your Panama-Pacific Expo usages. Some of us learn through what others show/become aware of what they have in their accumulations/collections.

October 30, 2003 23:32 Bjorn Munch

Cancels of the day
Well, it's Porsgrunn, actually it must be sub-office but I can't figure out its name. And what is this Southampton France ML?
 

October 30, 2003 Christo van Zyl

Cancels Of the Day
Another day, another link. In this Cancels of the Day 2 you'll find:

Luxembourg (Esch-S-L'Alzet?), Norway (Podsgrunn), Denmark (Odder), Norway (Egersund), Portugal (Lisboa Central), Denmark (Odensec)and France (Southampton MB).
If you have any suggestions, please fire away!
 

October 29, 2003 David Benson

Marius, League or Union,

David B.

October 29, 2003 Marius

David Leaving it out was appropriate. You did say "English speaking sites" :-) Heck, they can't even play rugby.

October 29, 2003 Roger

- David
-US );>) I'm strining for that one

October 29, 2003 David

- US
);>)

October 29, 2003 David Benson

Duncan, left out the US, didn't do it on purpose,

David B.

October 29, 2003 David Benson

Duncan,

sounds like a good idea but may become cumbersome if each site does it's own thing and there are some different regulations. It may be better in the long run if there was an arrangement with the English language sites to have a communal agreement.

Australia,,Canada,Ireland,New Zealand,Singapore,United Kingdom.


It may take a few years to organise but would immensely help Ebay's integrity.

David B.

October 29, 2003 Chris

Still yet more eBay name roulette
Someone else must have read the same name, as all the major character
names are valid IDs, even "the_leewit", which is a dead giveaway.

Chris - none of them have current feedback however.

October 29, 2003 Chris

More eBay ID roulette
Tried the game again with users glidden, zingara, frop, sedmon and klatha.
Last feedbacks were 2000, 1999, 2003, none and 2002 respectively.
There was only 1 feedback in the last 6 months from this batch.

Chris - 200 bonus points to whoever can name the book I am currently reading, given this list of names.

October 29, 2003 Duncan Doenitz

eBay / APS and early indicators

I also can echo that I have had a quick and intelligent response from Robert Lamb, prior to this current APS/eBay topic but fairly recently and involving bad sellers.

To Jim Watson, thank you so much for your efforts and the posts regarding the workings of the APS/eBay relationship. The news is very encouraging! And from what I've seen from eBay UK responses to problems with sellers, there is also reason to believe they are quite willing to help with cleaning up the eBay environment.

I've filed a lot of reports to eBay, enough to notice a recent improvement in response and enough to say that eBay UK does a good job in cooperation with eBay.com.

RAPID RESPONSE

Bill W I don't know who else might have alerted eBay when counterfeit US C3a's and the 1901 inverts appeared, but I reported the auctions on Sunday and by Monday night or Tuesday they were gone. A second seller, from Iowa, was also involved and his auctions disappeared at that time too.

Dunc

October 29, 2003 David Benson

Jim, I wasn't going to say a word as I know very little and couldn't care less about the conduct of APS members. I am only interested in the future of Ebay and that now there will more reliability in the material listed. I have nothing against the indelible marking of modern fakes although I would have hoped for an outright ban and not just a slap on the backside with a rubber stamp.

David Benson

Thanks for all your help as most probably we could not have got this far with information without you and the APS.

David

October 29, 2003 20:11 Jim Watson

eBay - APS Relationship
David B.,
As I understand it and as I hope I have portrayed it, the current eBay-APS relationship is related to the U.S. eBay site - ebay.com. SCW forwards suspect items to APS for confirmation and initial action. Suspect items have three things in common: 1) they are listed on the ebay.com site; 2) they are philatelic in nature; and 3) at least 2 of the SCW watchers believes the listing does not comply with the "Code of Conduct" which eBay has stated is a requirement for listing philatelic material on eBay. The action is independent of the national origin of the lister and country of origin of the material.

APS, on its own, remains committed to having its members comply with its "Code of Ethics" independent of where the tranaction might transpire. It has a disciplinary procedure for dealing with complaints of violations. Now, before you tell me about all the times that APS has failed to act, just recognize that they have been effective in resolving many issues between buyers and sellers.

October 29, 2003 Chris

Number Of Active eBay IDs
The true number is much smaller than 75 mil.
A fun game to play when you are bored is to go to the search page and
type in whatever id comes to mind. Chances are pretty good that it exists
and that it has had no activity in the last 6 months. I tried it with three different id's
pulled out of thin air just now. The id's were diane57, metamorph and vinegaroon.
One had no feedback, one had last feedback in 2000 and one had 3 feedbacks in the last 6 months.
Based on playing this game a few times, my guess is that about 1 id in 5 is actually doing anything.

Chris

October 29, 2003 Bill Weiss

MIKE W; Sure, it's wrw43@rcn.com, although I will only be here another 15-20 minutes or so, but I can answer you in the morning if that's OK. I'll look for it.

October 29, 2003 David Benson

Jim, as far as I understand it has nothing to do with the residency of the lister only if the lister chooses to list on the US site. The same can be said of any US lister who chooses to list on a non US site then the relationship will not be applicable unless of course the lister is a member of the APS.

If I am wrong, please correct me,

David Benson

October 29, 2003 Michael Walter <harfordstamps@comcast.net>

Bill Weiss
Bill Wiess: Can I have your email address? I have a question that really does not apply to this board. (It is 100% stamp related)

October 29, 2003 nomad55

To Dave F
Julian was spared through a concerted effort of the fire crews.

October 29, 2003 18:13 Jim Watson

eBay - APS Relationship
David B.,
I was referring to the information I gained during a telephone conversation I had with Bob Lamb. He said that the SCW had called APS's attention to items which were listed (presumably on ebay.com) by people who were not US residents (Korea was one example). Further, AFAIK, APS will respond to any querry sent them by the SCW. That includes philatelic material from any country listed by anyone on the ebay.com site. The relationship is still in a trial stage the scope of which does not yet include ebay.uk, ebay.de, etc. How that is to be dealt with is in the future.

October 29, 2003 David Benson

promno, it may be a small percentage but the number of complaints that are mentioned in philatelic magazines must have been a frightening thought to some of the higher echelon of Ebay.

They were lucky in finding an organisation like the APS to handle the problem philatelic material and other groups to handle diverse areas.

If and when they try to accomodate other international sites I would think the prospective groups would delve into the pros and cons with more prudence than the APS.


David B.
 

October 29, 2003 prometheus

Roger
Total numbers fo listing come not from ebay but a service that tracks actual auction numbers at many sites.
Off course free listing days and such throw those up sometimes and as we approach the Xmas season the totals will climb much higher.
I know a lot of people with 5-10 IDS there so I think actual users/members is smaller than even you do.

In a conversation with someone today they wondered if the GROUPS area was where the intrusive/attacking scammers were lurking or if it is somewhere else in the system.

Have many of those here who joined a "group" had ID problems.??
Is the sign in there secure?
 

October 29, 2003 Jim Whitford-Stark

Pro

I think you have to consider the clientele.
Admitedly most of the posters to this board would be happy to obtain stamps in the less than $100 price category.
Though, there are out there, collectors who will plonk 10's of thousands of dollars down on anything that meets their collecting requirements.
They will not do so if they think eBay is tainted.

The majority of the other categories of non-collectibles have items that you are used to (in terms of cost) in everyday life.
You wouldn't pay $10,000 for a camera that you can go to your local camera store and buy for $100.
When a specialized knowledge is required to judge the "value" of a particular item then eBay and its users need to have an external frame of reference.

In art, antique books, stamps, cigarette cards (even Beanie Babies) etc., eBay needs to know whether the items listed are genuine or designed to rip-off buyer and thus deprive them of the image that they build up of being a location where legitimate items can be bought at market price.
To be conceived as the internet "fence" is, I don't think, part of their corporate policy.

October 29, 2003 Roger Heath

Ebay Numbers
Pro -
You can't place much credence on Ebay totals. You can go to any search page and it has a number of listings and more often than not you go to the last page and there are no lots there.
Until my dying day I'll truely wonder how many individuals actually buy and sell on Ebay as opposed to Ebay ID's. 75,000,000 is the most recent number I've heard bandied around, but if one half have a second ID, or a second in a family, or a buying and selling ID, or a second ID for posting to Discussion and Chat Boards. That would be millions les than claimed.

Roger

October 29, 2003 Roger Heath

Bob Lamb
I would like to add that I also had a very quick response from Mr Lamb concerning the issues we've brought up. At this point I'm pretty sure he understands there's a long way to go, but if everyone cooperates, the process will expand quickly to other sites. I sent numerous links showing German sellers who have literally hundreds of fakes up for sale. These are items that would never see an expert, because they are being sold to an unsophiswticated buyer. (That's Elmer Fuddese. I should only use words I know how to spell. );>)

I'm hoping we'll be able to linnk to sellers auctions by seller, rather than list every single auction. It used to be much easier to copy and link item numbers, but the numbers haven't been on the search pages for yearfs now. I still miss seeing the lot numbers on my search and browse pages. I get the auction number one must open every auction, how repetative can it get.

Roger

 

October 29, 2003 prometheus

NO WONDER noip
David B - so with over 12 million listings less than 1.5 percent are stamp related and Now I understand why this is not a Major problem as They see it.
Would anyone have a guess as to percentage of stamps that are wonky in stamps cats. ??

makes it(almost) seem like a minor thing after all and Now i can almost see the other side of the river.

October 29, 2003 5:00PM Bill Weiss

Reporting Fraudulent eBay Listings
I just followed the instructions given in Question one to Bob Lamb for reporting a fraudulent listing to eBay and I am happy to report it took me less than two minutes for two different reports. I first reported a used US 5c 1908 Imperf (Scott #315) which is an obviously-trimmed perforated stamp, which sells within the next 24 hours. Then I reported that stupid lot of 297 used copies of US #482A, which does not go off for 4 days+. I think someone else noted this on the board yesterday and I am wondering if anyone else reported it to eBay. If so, please say so in a post here as I am trying to determine how quickly eBay takes care of these complaints, so if I am the first to report it, that's one time frame, but if someone else here already reported it, I would like to know when, as that would be a different time frame. Thanks.

October 29, 2003 John Cunningham

Christo You are correct that I collect US. However,1881 is as far back as my mint collection goes so there are a lot of classics still to be collected. I also collect usages of the Panama-Pacific Expo commem's. Neither is too appealing to many on the board so I refrain from posting images and try to learn about other areas from those who have more uncommon items to show.
John C

October 29, 2003 Bill Weiss

APS Response
I just wanted to make a quick comment or rather, pay a compliment, to Bob Lamb, the executive director of APS, for the prompt attention he obviously gave to the list of questions from this board. I think that all of us on this board should be big enough to admit that once the questions got directed to the correct person - Lamb - that we received immediate attention. For myself, I was very pleased to read the information he gave us, and I am particularly anxious to try making a direct report to eBay following the instructions given in Question 1.

October 29, 2003 Jim Whitford-Stark

Its been a long day !!
Sul Ross.
Not a misspelled cancel !
A long day at work !

October 29, 2003 Jim Whitford-Stark

Yipee !!!
Finally got a Sul Poss PO cancel.
Pity they don't put it on letters yet.

David B
Looks like about a third of the listings are US.
Even cleaning up a third of the site is better than none.
There are other outlets for non-US stamps.

October 29, 2003 David Benson

Jim, thanks, I didn't note anywhere where it said that material was submitted by non US listers. Could you let me know where that comment is,

An interesting comment in the reply was

" pattern of continuing non compliance by the seller would be viewed as grounds for permanent suspension by eBay. "

David B.

October 29, 2003 16:13 Jim Watson

To my mind, it fits in the category of further detail to be filled in. I'm sure that the process will evolve to clearer drawing of the lines. Also, to me, the question of misleading catalogue values is not the highest problem on my list. I will still start from the premise of 'Caveat Emptor.'

October 29, 2003 David Benson

NOIP,

Just took a look at the current listings of items available on the US, these include items listed on Ebay.US and on all the foreign sites but available worldwide, the figures are extremely interesting,

Stamps (192793)
United States (62959)
Australia (3173)
Canada (8093)
Br. Comm. Other (11336)
UK (Great Britain) (4647)
Africa (1698)
Asia (10587)
Europe (35908)
Latin America (4060)
Middle East (5188)
Publications & Supplies (2579)
Topical & Specialty (26970)
Worldwide (17575)

David Benson
 

October 29, 2003 15:43 Dave F. (moderator)

Fire Updates
If anyone is interested in more local coverage of the fires, the Los Angeles Times has pretty good online coverage. (The print version actually did a good job of synthesizing the various stories. The online version seems a little more disjointed to me, but it's still more in-depth than most of the broadcast media sites.)

Los Angeles Times coverage

Access to the site probably requires a one-time free registration effort.

As for people I know, one set of friends is still in an evacuation center and doesn't know whether their home burned down or not.
Another set of friends, who packed for evacuation on Sunday, appears to be out of danger and never had to evacuate.

However, a third set of friends, who thought they averted the threat of one of the other fires, is now facing it again. Unfortunately, their adult daughter had to be hospitalized on a unrelated matter, so they're trying to help pack the family, including infant daughter, and prepare to leave if necessary.

A new fire appears to threaten a fourth set of friends in yet another area. It's so close to them and the freeways are so jammed in that area that I don't even want to disturb them right now and find out how they're doing.

Yesterday, as Jim/jaywild described, the sky was dark and threatening, with a bizarre orange sun even at mid-day. Today, as moist, cooler breezes come up off the coast, where I am it is just surreally beautiful. It is hard to believe that some of these fires are still as close as 30 miles.

As you might expect, the local tv stations are broadcasting continuous coverage, including evacuation instructions, etc.

For me personally, one of the most alarming things is that someone was arrested trying to set a fire in a canyon about 5 miles from me. This is what I genuinely fear, and obviously resources are already spread very thin if something were to happen. I am probably going to think about what I should pack up, just in case. (I had to do this about 10 years ago with another fire.)

On a philatelic level, I know of one lifetime collector of Japan who moved a couple of years ago to one of the mountain resort areas that is now evacuated.

As for Tom Lowe, I saw that he came on and posted once. I only have a rough idea of where he lives, so am not sure if he is out of danger or not.

For those of you somewhat familiar with the area, the fires range from somewhat near Santa Barbara, to the Lake Arrowhead, Big Bear and other mountain resort areas, to as far down as Mexico. (Not continuous, of course, but I've heard that some walls of fire are as much as 45 miles long.)

Many of the towns and villages in the San Bernardino Mountains, about an hour or so northeast of Los Angeles, are beautiful and charming. It's not clear to me how much they have been damaged, but they have all been evacuated.

About an hour east of San Diego is an absolutely charming town of Julian, up in the mountains. During the winter, you can drive up there, be in the snow, have hot apple cider, and feel like you're in New England.

It is not certain, but appears probable, that the town may have been destroyed in the last several hours. That's where a firefighter was killed just a little while ago. Here is the Chamber of Commerce site for the town, as it was before:

town of Julian

One last philatelic note: as one might imagine, the volume of mail delivery is down significantly, even here in an area that is not currently threatened. No doubt the closure of major north-south and east-west freeways and the shutdown of the air traffic control center on Sunday, has delayed a lot of inbound freight. (Although my Linn's arrived today.)

Sorry for the interruption. And Jim W., many, many thanks for your efforts in seeking clarification.

Be back later.

October 29, 2003 1458 Clark Frazier

From San DIego Union
Postal service
1:29 p.m.
Fourteen post offices in San Diego County are closed today.
The closures are in Alpine, Boulevard Campo, Descanso, Dulzura, Jacumba, Julian, Mt. Laguna, Palomar Mountain, Potrero, Pauma Valley, Santa Ysabel, Valley Center and Warner Springs.
In addition, the Fallbrook and Lakeside post offices may open sometime during the day, depending on local conditions.
The postal service will attempt to provide mail service in all other communities depending on safety, air quality and access.
Residents whose homes were destroyed by fire or whose mailboxes are no longer standing may pick up mail at their delivery post office if it is open.
Proper identification will be required.
In San Diego city, temporary mail pickup locations for Scripps Ranch residents is the Scripps Ranch Carrier Annex, 10060 Willow Creek Road. Tierrasanta residents can pick up mail at the Tierrasanta Postal Store, 6030 Santo Road, Suite A.
On Tuesday, 350 delivery routes were cancelled as were parts of 66 others, according to the USPS. This equates to 152,943 mail boxes not receiving mail, down from the 667 cancelled routes on Monday, which affected 341,000 mailboxes.

 

October 29, 2003 David Benson

Jimbo, back earlier than I thought,

One other question,

Has there been any provision for the misidentifaction of British Commonwealth stamps, primarily Hi face values QV, KEVII & KGV with visible identifiable Revenue cancels misdescribed as postally used especially with cat. value noted for postally used.

David B.

October 29, 2003 Roger Heath

Dr Seuss
Lavar -
He looks like your Dad!

Bill W -
I implore you to go through your preferences, every link and item one at a time and confirm you placed the information there. I discovered after my theft that the "new malolo" had placed an email address to a wireless phone, and a second contact emali address. Plus a second mailing address. Ordinarily one doesn't check out the links one never used before.

Roger

October 29, 2003 Jim Griffith <griffith@dweeb.org> http://album.dweeb.org
 

Jim

October 29, 2003 13:58 Jim Watson

eBay - APS Relationship
Mathias,
When I first talked to Bob Lamb at APS eBay's intent to apply it to all of its sites was not clear. Bob did contact eBay and asked the question. Both eBay and APS "consider this to be in a test phase at this point and would like to get more experience under our belts before we take on new mountain tops. If it works to everyone's satisfaction, [the eBay contact] says eBay would like to
expand it."

The updated web page includes this as a footnote.

October 29, 2003 14:09 Bjorn Munch

SON cancels
I agree that the 20 ore off.sak is a bit blurry. The reason the others don't qualify is that a lux cancel should be upright. You can find the definitions from Norgeskatalogen here, and a definition of lesser qualities here.
 

October 29, 2003 Jim Griffith <griffith@dweeb.org> http://album.dweeb.org
 

Jim

October 29, 2003 Matthias Bock

Jim Watson: does this mean this code of conduct will apply to german Ebay, too? It would surprise me...

October 29, 2003 13:58 Jim Watson

eBay - APS Relationship
NOIP and EOIG,
I just received some followup information regarding the open questions which came up during my discussion with Bob Lamb. It was with respect to the question of eBay's plans for applying the approach to all eBay sites and an update to make the "Code of Conduct" less America-centric. I've updated the web page to include it as footnote.

October 29, 2003 Christo van Zyl

Bjorn M: A last on I promise. I just had a quick look at the cancels again, to ascertain why you call them luxe. To me the 20 ore sak does not look that great? What about the 110 ore? The 20 sak is not as clearly printed, but is well centered. What about the last Norwegian stamp. The CDS is too big for the stamp, but the cancel is still nicely centered?
Do you perhaps have a scan of a page or image which illustrates the various definitions?

October 29, 2003 1345 Clark Frazier

Key Items?
Any opinions about these Key items?

October 29, 2003 Christo van Zyl

Last post for evening
Bjorn M, Knud E . Many thanks for your help in the unravelling of the address!


Bjorn M: I agree, not all of my cancels will be luxe, if I go that route then you are probably looking at a hit rate of 1 luxury cancel per maybe 1000 plus stamps sorted! There really ain't that much in line of SON cancels (my belief anyway).
Good night to all

October 29, 2003 13:36 Bjorn Munch

Danish address
Carl Plougs Vej 7, 2.tv
DK-1913 FREDERIKSBERG C

Oh, and nice cancels you have, though only the 20 ore off.sak and the 1.80 lighthouse are "luxury".
 

October 29, 2003 David Benson

Jim, thank for the good work,

I have to urgently go out for a few hours but noted one interesting answer to one of your questions,

Do the requirements apply to all eBay sites? For example, are ebay.uk and ebay.de included?
A1. You have to ask eBay that one. I don't know.

David Benson

October 29, 2003 Bill Weiss

Problem Resolved - I think!
Thank you to everyone who has voiced concern over our suspension. We finally received a call from a live eBay representative who explained that someone had stolen our identity - again - and apparantly was offering some prohibited items somewhere on eBay. At any rare, they claim, as a matter of practice they suspend all eBay activity in such cases until they can (I'm guessing) shut down the crook.

So now, we are restored, with a new password. The biggeszt problem resulting from this is, of course, the fact that they suspended all of our upcoming auctions. They stated that we would be able to relist these lots with ease merely by going into "My eBay" and hitting the relist on them. Only problem is - they lied! We have tried everything we know how to do and these lots can not be retrieved, which means if I want to relist them, I've got to do all of the manual work over again! Lucky me. Further, of course, while they were cancelled, there were numerous bidders who assumed they were participating in an auction, only to find that the auction was suspended, with no explaination to the bidders, which, of course, makes us look bad, as though we had anything to do with it! I even had a telephone call from a longtime client who was anxious because she saw that the item she was currently high bidder on had been shut down and now wanted to know how to proceed. I calmed her down by telling her that regardless what happened with the eBay outcome, I would sell her a duplicate I had of the lot at the exact price she was currently high bidder on.

On other matters, to NOMAD - you have paid your bill, but thanks for asking.

To JIM W. for the great job in composing the questions to APS. I printed them out and will try to read them shortly. They should provide us with some good points for discussion on the board.

October 29, 2003 prometheus <Prometheus@1Internetdrive.com>

Christo and Jim W
Thanks to both for the posts.
 

October 29, 2003 13:20 Jim Watson

Cancels of the Day 1
Christo,
Welcome to the daily club! Good for you! One of the fun things about these chatboards is that it gives us all a chance to share our interests with everyone.

October 29, 2003 13.17 Knud-Erik Andersen

October 29, 2003 13:10 Jim Watson

eBay - APS Relationship
NOIP and EOIG,
Last weekend there was considerable discussion regarding the relationship between eBay and APS. I consolidated what I thought were the questions raised here as well as some I encountered in reviewing the materials available on both the eBay and APS sites. This morning I got an e-mail off to Robert Lamb, APS Executive Director. I got a prompt answer. I have posted the questions and the answers I received on Questions regarding eBay-APS plans. There are still some open questions, particularly about eBay's intent regarding all of its sites but there has been real progress. Bob was particularly positive about what he perceived as the results of the first couple of months of operation. I think it is step in the right direction. I hope that everyone agrees even if not all the questions have been resolved.

October 29, 2003 Christo van Zyl

here is the first of the Cancels of the Day 1
 

October 29, 2003 Christo van Zyl

Danish Address
Bjorn M: This is the address. Any ideas??
 

October 29, 2003 prometheus

Scott T - Thanks for the reply
I asked the question because I have seen the Statement "dealers just dumping their dross" a few hundred times on different boards and had to ask. I can readily understand your entering into this marketplace, I have seen some of your catalogs and I'm sure they do not come cheap.
As a college student who is new to this Hobby (stamps/postal history) I wish I had the Knowledge required for the positions you are making available.
But I'm sure my parental units would stroke out if I chose to find work when I graduate in December in something other than the field in which they have made such a Huge investment.

Besides Auctions have you considered just a web presence (store) to sell some of your lower values items ??
 

October 29, 2003 Richard Ballhagen (spain_1850)

Scott - Will you be bringing any non-US items to the market? There sure is a lack of intersting Spanish items on ebay right now.

October 29, 2003 Scott Trepel

Ebay
Prometheus:

Dumping? Never.

If there are buyers who do their shopping on Ebay, I want to bring my goods to their marketplace.

I may be a little late to the party, but during the time I waited, more of the world connected to cable modems with faster download speed, and upgraded their computers, so the process works better.

We'll see how it works. Mailing out printed catalogues with lo-value cover lots is just not economical, so the internet represents a better way (maybe).

October 29, 2003 David Benson

Rob, got it and replied,

David B.

October 29, 2003 Barry Elkins <elkinj@comcast.net>

Scott T
I'm too far away from retirement (~7 years) to take you up on your offer, but it's something I'd love to do when I do retire.
If you have any material to or from Philadelphia county independent post offices, please email me.

October 29, 2003 Rob Faux

email
David B Just sent you an email. Hopefully it will work.

For those who may want to reply and the other email didn't work:

fauxr "at" mrs "dot" umn "dot" edu

Rob

October 29, 2003 Duncan D

Common sense and forged items

Prometheus

The lack of enforcement and lack of communication have created a ridiculous situation.

Whats needed now is some input, some real feedback, indicating to those of us who are interested plus to those considering quick and easy profits from unethical or illegal sales that there are negative results from those actions. And since eBay is obviously taking serious actions to make positive changes, this seems like an excellent time for that dialogue.

Some simple examples without naming names would be great, to illustrate what is being accomplished. Unless, of course, nothing is being accomplished.

Dunc

"Would anyone notice if I changed my name to SpongeBob Squarestamps?"

October 29, 2003 Prometheus

Scott T - dipping your toes in the bay
Please don't take this wrong
But my question/thought about this is
Just another dealer dumping their lesser goods there, and while your lesser goods are far superior to most (i would think) What took you so long to decide to enter this Market place?

October 29, 2003 prometheus

Duncan D
Why would you support a logical move in the way Questionable auctions are handled?
Do you think that for such small potatoes there will be any Punishment?
With the proven existence of so many fakes (not just stamps)
do you think that the rash of Ebay adverts on TV and radio are a way of influencing the media view/opinion of the Bay?.

October 29, 2003 prometheus

Bill W
Did anyone hear what happened to bill W?
I hate mysteries.

Christo CYE.

October 29, 2003 Duncan Doenitz

Bill's dilemma... and second topic, a forgers fate
Yeah I wonder about Bill's problems with eBay, too. He no longer appears to be NARU'ed at this point, but I bet he had auctions in which buyers couldn't participate while his status was interrupted.

Wouldn't it be helpful if auctions could be put on "hold" when questions arise, instead of letting the clock continue to run?

The same situation in reverse happens when obvious "bad" auctions run to completion before eBay can react. For example, the seller who recently offered many counterfeit copies of the US C3a inverted Jenny and the #294a, #295a, and #296a 1901 inverts had multiple auctions ending every day, many with multiple blocks and groups of the forgeries sold in some of those auctions, which were eventually shut down of course.

What happens now to the buyers and the seller? He had at least 152 such auctions so there had to be about 100 buyers who violated US counterfeiting laws by participating in the illegal sales, some of which closed while eBay was pondering the problem.

That is a serious question in many similar sales... what if anything does happen? To me, the seller should be responsible for much more than simply ending his auctions, he should be required to retrieve as many sold items as possible and turn over them and all remaining stocks and in this most recent case, the government should probably also require that he turn over his "vintage perforator". And he should be penalized for each sale where the items cannot be retrieved and turned over, so that he does not walk away from the whole episode with a tidy profit, which in this case based on 150 sales at, say, $10 each, would be a quick #1500.

There are now hundreds of new invert forgeries out there thanks to this seller, and it happened quickly. Too bad there was no way to put those sales on "pause".

Dunc

October 29, 2003 David Benson <dbenson@bigpond.net.au>

rfaux, sent you an email, it came back, send me one at my address above,

David

October 29, 2003 10:16 Bjorn Munch

Danish address help
Christo, if you try "Carl Plougs Vej 7" in Google you'll find that "2.tv" is the correct extension. :-) But I still don't know what it means, I can't figure out what Danish word is abbreviated "tv" (except television)...
 

October 29, 2003 09:05 Bjorn Munch

Danish address help
Christo: it should be "Carl Plougs Vej 7", but I have no idea what 2TV or 2JV could mean. Could be a reference to floor or apartment number. Even if you don't get that part right, as long as you have his name right it should get to him. BTW, are you sure it's 7, not 1? I've had the two 1's in my address misread as 7's a couple of times.
 

October 29, 2003 Bob Hohertz

Wonder if Bill ever heard from eBay?

October 29, 2003 Scott Trepel

Nomad:

We plan to stick around a while. And I have enough to keep two or more people busy.

October 29, 2003 nomad55

Bill Weiss
While rummaging around through a stack of papers last night, I found an invoice from you for $49. Did I send you a check? I have no recollection, and can't find such an amount in my check register.

October 29, 2003 nomad55

Scott....sounds like a job I would love, but I'm at least a year to 18 months away from formal retirement. Maybe then??

October 29, 2003 Christo van Zyl

Carl Plougs VEJ7, 2TV (or 2JV). Which of the latter is correct? Any idea? Thanks

October 29, 2003 Scott Trepel <strepel@siegelauctions.com>

Opportunity
Some of you may have seen that the Siegel firm has dipped its toes in the Ebay pool. We have had pretty decent success with the U.S. covers placed for sale, and we'll be trying a few different strategies to see what works (or doesn't).

Over the course of many years, you can imagine that we have accumulated a significant number of covers in the $50-$500 range. Frankly, the stuff is just sitting there and needs to find new homes. We do not have a regular retail selling routine, which is why Ebay appeals to me.

While my staff is handling Ebay from the administrative side, I really need someone who can scan and quickly describe hundreds (thousands!) of covers on a regular routine basis.

The person I envision is retired (or has a disability that makes commuting/travel difficult), loves postal history, and would be willing to work from home for a fair "per lot" compensation arrangement. To begin, I think it would be best if our office handled fulfillment, but if the arrangement is successful and trust is built, then extra compensation could be earned for billing out sales and shipping.

The benefits to our Ebay describer are:
1. A steady flow of very good saleable material (covers in the $50-$500 range)
2. Association with a prominent "live" auction firm
3. Good compensation
4. Self-regulated working hours (and a really great boss)

Interested parties should contact me with background and references (important).

October 29, 2003 Rob Faux

And maybe I will peek instead of peak.... the latter is more than I can promise. :)

October 29, 2003 Rob Faux

rfaux"at"thefauxden"dot"com

October 29, 2003 Rob Faux

Odd requests again
At the risk of derailing whatever is going on here, I have two requests that I only have time to type, then I must go. Please respond to me via email, but I will also try to peak in here tomorrow.

1. I have a student who is looking to attend school in Australia for a semester. He is currently looking at the U at Sydney, the U at Melbourne and Macquarrie. If anyone is willing to give me some feedback or more local knowledge regarding these schools, he (and I) would be grateful.

2. My nephew is in a class that is currently sending a letter around that asks recipients to 1. send a note to the school asking for a postcard that tells/shows something about where people live. and 2. send the note on to someone else in a different location who would be willing to do the same. This would go on until May, at which time the last person sends the letter back to the school.

I think it would be a great learning experience for these kids if I could arrange a string of people from different countries and locations to mail this thing around and send postcards to them. Those who are interested, please contact me via email.

Rob
 

October 29, 2003 Christo van Zyl

Promotheus CYE

October 29, 2003 prometheus <Prometheus@1Internetdrive.com>

Good Day to all - Christo
Christo - I saw it and searched the archives BUT could Not find your emaill address --Mine is above.

BOB in WA - My noticing the Firearms in Rogers Scan was a protective post - my sweet girlfriend sometimes scans chat boards looking for me (see if I'm home) during the day. CYA if you get my drift.

October 29, 2003 Michael Walter

De Goya Nudes
Here is a newspaper clipping (dated Aug. 4, 1930) I found in an old album I recently purchased. The bottom statement reads: "An indecent picture is bad enough.... but a postage stamp, whose back side must be licked!.....Millions of innocent children collect stamps."

October 29, 2003 Richard Frajola

Calves Signatures
Christo Regarding Calves signatures - he usually signs items of lesser value that he considers to be genuine. He only does "certificates" for more valuable items and when requested. For auction companies, he frequently will leave items on an album page and sign above the stamp. He is no longer an expert for AIEP and his signature on an item does not now carry the weight of "expert opinion" that it once did.

Expert Groups Just now catching up on some of the comments of the last couple weeks. I think that it is great that we have three groups (PF, PSE and APS) now competing to provide the best quality of service and opinion possible. What happened in the past is history.

October 29, 2003 02:26 Jim Watson

Today in Postal History
Good Morning, Everyone!
Today's dated postal history item is a cover from the Falkland Islands to the United States in 1928. It has the stamps of three nations on it. Learn about Hubert Wilkins!
 

October 29, 2003 Christo van Zyl

NOIP: I have received an email a short while ago, inviting me to join a group called "philatelic". The origin appears to be from LiveWorld (hosts to ebay stamp chat?). What is this all about, or is it just scam mail?

October 29, 2003 David Benson

Matthias & Lars, thanks to you both for your informative posts, Ebay.US is slowly cleaning up its act but have outsourced it's philatelic checking to an organisation that is already overworked and understaffed. Hope they can can cope with the workload when the new system comes into force next week.

David B.

October 29, 2003 Matthias Bock <5bock at informatik dot uni-hamburg dot de>

Christo: There are also fake (or partially fake) classical covers with questionable or faked certificates and expert marks. However, these are not very common and often easily detectable by collectors who know about the postal history of the territory they collect. Most of this classical stuff is in the $hundreds range anyway, so you should agree on some refunding before bidding/buying anyway.

October 29, 2003 Matthias Bock <5bock at informatik dot uni-hamburg dot de>

Forgeries and the BDPh
David: As far as I know, there are no such attempts from the organization itself. The case Lars Boettger mentioned a few minutes ago is known to me as well. German Ebay does nothing against: forgeries, shill bidding, rip-offs and so on unless forced to do so by legal enforcement authorities... *sigh*

October 29, 2003 David Benson

Lars, Welcome, sounds like a familiar story, at least Ebay.US will be doing better than that,

David Benson

October 29, 2003 David Benson

Dave P. To put it into a US perspective, are fake grills on US stamps considered forgeries, if so, backstamp them FORGERY.

David Benson

October 29, 2003 Lars Boettger <alpha2 at pt dot lu>

Forgeries
David Benson

To my knowledge there was no contact between BDPh and eBay.de (yet). To illustrate the current misery, a short example: A forged German infla stamp with a fake signature was reported to eBay security. By the very same man whose signature was faked... eBay reaction: Zero. So even proven experts opinions don't matter to them.

 

October 29, 2003 David Benson

Dave P, of course everyone would like a perfect world but Ebay had a chance with the APS arrangement as they would have philatelists checking the material and not Ebay Safeharbor juniors. Any experienced philatelist knows the difference between a postal forgery, classical forgery and modern made muck. The latter is the type that should be backstamped or booted. The others should be allowed without any markings.

I cannot make any comments about what category items should go under and I also believe they should be in a special fake category but so far no one has made any statements.

David Benson

October 29, 2003 Dave P

Forgeries
David B

I do agree with your sentiments about marking "classic forgeries". I assume the rule would also apply to early postal forgeries - even where they are worth a lot more than the genuine stamps, clearly not a reasonable thing to do! On the other hand I do have some sympathy with Ebay, they have to try and keep the process as simple and uncomplicated as possible. If the price to pay for a clean up is that certain forgeries can no longer be realistically sold on Ebay then I would have to go along with it. What I would like to see is a completely separate main category under stamps titled "Forgeries" and that this be the only place where forgeries could be listed.

October 29, 2003 David Benson

Matthias, has there ever been any suggestions to any German Philatelic Organisation about how to clean up Ebay.Germany. I have noticed many modern made forgeries for sale,

David Benson

October 29, 2003 Christo van Zyl

David B, Matthias: Thanks for the comments (und wilkommen hier Matthias - that is about as much German I'll be willing to venture before my my name crater!).

I understood your comments re either proof/genuine, I was more interested on the value of an expert's signature on a cover. I generally assumed that if say Calves's signature is on the cover, I cannot really go wrong (but see Matthias's comments below). It looks to me as if Calves uses a small rubber stamp to attach his signature to items he has investigated.
On the comment one has to feel the stamp in one's own hands (I presume meaning to investigate from closeby by means of feel - texture - magnification): Difficult if one has not got that luxury - this is the problem with electronic auctions. I suppose the one will have to ensure that a return is possible on the items bought.

October 29, 2003 David Benson

Matthias, At least Ebay.US has started something in getting the APS to check forgeries when a complaint to Ebay comes in and it will help clear some of the garbage from the US site especially the modern made computer generated copies but I don't agree with the marking of older well known forgeries, especially with indelible ink.

David Benson

October 29, 2003 Matthias Bock

David: I did. There is no such thing as a conduct for stamp trade on German Ebay, or any obligation to mark forgeries as such. One of my current "favourites" is this collection of Danzig (http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2960546709) which is nowhere near the 35,000 Euro mark. All key values of the inflation time have fake or CTO cancels, the better overprints are all forgeries, the seller has a history of buying from well-known sellers of fakes (see his feedback profile). Ebay does not care...

Matthias
 

October 29, 2003 David Benson

Matthias,

Welcome, did you see the comments on Ebay.Germany Chat,

David Benson

October 29, 2003 David Benson

Christo, I don't know, I have seen many items with Calves signature and they have been OK but would presume a certificate would have accompanied the item. I am not doubting the item, only whether it is the issued stamp or a proof.

David B.

October 29, 2003 Christo van Zyl

Roger H: Next time you do a photo shoot with your team, please ask them not to suck in their breath so much!! You know what happens when we men suck in ours.

Re the fire photos, they had a copy of the one you posted this morning on your TV news programme. But they also had another one whch was absolutely fantastic - I'll see if I can find that one and post the link

October 29, 2003 Matthias Bock <5bock at informatik dot uni-hamburg dot de>

Signatures
A signature does not neccessarily mean anything.

First of all, the experts of old did not have today's knowledge. They have have thought fake cancels as genuine and all that.
Second, any signature can be forged. Think about all the german forgeries backstamped "DrDub". Many of these were made
after the death of said Dr. Dub by forgers. There are also forgeries of very recently deceased experts' signatures (like
Erdwien, who expertised Danzig until his death about two years ago).
Third, stamps are not "protected" in a way only experts could sign them. I could put my name on any stamp I own,
but it would signify nothing.

So, what it sums up to is: You have to see the stamp itself to be able to tell if it's genuine. Many forgeries can
be seen as such on scans, but not all of them, and old expertizer's marks do not help very much...

Matthias
 

October 29, 2003 Christo van Zyl

David Benson: So I am learning something new here. What does a person's signature (e.g. Calves, Deiss, Roumet etc) signature mean then. That they have seen it and is OK, or just that they have seen it? A lot of sellers offer their items in this way, e.g signed Calves. Does this add any value to the item, or can one take it as "I have seen this item and consider it to be real?"

October 29, 2003 Roger Heath

Final - Final Fire Photos
This NASA site has some incredible satellite photos of various phenomenon around the world. Primarily fires, volcanoes, cloud patterns, and some ocean currents. I've just spent an hour looking at page after page. One of the most interesting images was of clouds squeezing through the Kurile Islands, and of ship tracks in the Pacific. High speed connection is almost a neccesity but all images have three different resolutions. This photo is of the current Southern California fires.

Roger


 

October 29, 2003 David Benson

Christo, I don't know if signed by Calves means that is expertised. It would need a certificate to go with it. It is a valuable item and looks genuine but may be a proof which is not of great value. The only way to tell is the paper and impossible from a scan. Ask him for a copy of Calves certificate.

David Benson

October 29, 2003 Christo van Zyl

David Benson: Hi. I know that this seller is not your favourite to deal with. He is currently listing this Ceres block of four, Mint no glue. Apparently expertised by Calves. I can't remember catalogue value offhand, but it must be in the region of $1200 - $1500. It also appears to have a few print flaws as well.
Even for an item which will probably realise a high amount, he only offers cash via mail as payment option!

Also, why does he list this on ebay and not an auction house?

October 29, 2003 Christo van Zyl

Prometheus: Did you see my tiny covers I posted for you?

October 29, 2003 Christo van Zyl

So what is your collecting interest? My guess - classic USA?
Regards, Christo

October 29, 2003 David Benson

Another comment on Ebay.Germany,

there is no such agreement with eBay.de. And as far as I know, there is no such agreement with eBay.com, at least I can't imagine that anybody will backstamp a possible fake with an irreversible mark. I wouldn't want to pay the indemnity if it is proven that a stamp was wrongly marked.

October 29, 2003 David Benson

Who said Germans don't have a sense of humor,

Maybe this could be an idea from the German government? Now we have more then 4 million workless people. After this regulation, they all will have a job at ebay to look for forgerys ;-)

 

October 29, 2003 David Benson

Some interesting replies on Ebay.Germany. No one has heard of the arrangement,

see,

http://cgi3.ebay.de/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBoard&name=stampsde&limit=default

David Benson

October 28, 2003 Anne

Good night to all and to all sweet dreams of Slania forgeries (at least they'd be high quality, as opposed to those of someone else we know), dweebs and weenies, and rain in California.

October 28, 2003 Roger Heath

Final for the night
Bennett Auctions -
Nice to read many of the stamps offered by Bennett are RAZOR SHARP. I'll have to take their word for it, as right now the auctions don't show in Netscape 4.8 and the images don't show in 7.0. I guess there's no need to see them. Maybe could get refund if not as described, due to technical glitches.

October 28, 2003 David Benson

Roger, I have left a post on Ebay German Chat asking them if anyone has any knowledge of the new arrangements,

David Benson

October 28, 2003 Roger Heath

Fakes Sale - BIN
Maybe word is out. Getting rid of fakes on Ebay Germany, certainly not bargain prices.

Roger
 

October 28, 2003 Roger Heath

Bill's Dilema
I think the Ebay spiderware caught you looking at my expert committee. It was posted for a glance, not to ogle. You didn't by chance copy the image and mistakenly post as the image file for all your auctions, did you?

Roger (just trying to be helpful)

October 28, 2003 Bill Weiss

MARK B; You may have misunderstood an earlier post. We DID get contact with live help, but THAT person told us that someone from eBay Security would need to speak to us peronally, but then they never called.

DAVE F; Thanks for your support. You may be correct about what happened, although the last time our eBay name was stolen, some guy in Italy was using it to sell something that had to do with computers if memory serves, and in that case, they did not suspend our accounts, so I suspect this may be something different, but have no idea what. I guess we will just have to wait and see.

October 28, 2003 Duncan Doenitz

Dweebs and Weenies

Be very careful what you say about dweebs and weenies, I suspect dweebs and weenies are employed at eBay Live Help, eBay Security, and if there is such a thing as eBay Customer Relations you can bet there is probably a weenie or dweeb there, too. And some of them may be literate.

Dunc

October 28, 2003 Jim Whitford-Stark

Oops,
last line was supposed to go before Dang.
I write to screen rather than "word" and sometimes miss where I had previously terminated.
When I edit.
 

October 28, 2003 Jim Whitford-Stark

Brain
Yep, Chronicles misspelled my name.
It is amazing how many miscombinations of letters can give rise to my name.
But who gives a damn.

There is a "letter to the editor" describing the activities of a certain poster to this board.
A letter that will either curtail future activities or enhance their saleablity, depending on the intentions of the buyer.
At least on the North American continent.
And perhaps some in Europe.

Dang Jim, Discovery program called "95 Moons and counting" describes Io as hell.
That seems to be a little worse than "dweeb" or "weenie".

Though it might seem that new eBay rules will at least curtail listing on the main site.

October 28, 2003 Mark Bardell

Bill W - Live Help
Bill

Live Help should always keep you on line until they have got your account back in good stead. If it was me I would try them again. The link below is the one that I have for live help, although you may have to sit on line for up to an hour before seomeone gets to you.



Mark.

October 28, 2003 18:59 Dave F. (moderator)

Bill W: It's interesting that you said that the Live Help person said that someone from eBay Security would need to contact you, rather than, say, Customer Service (although maybe eBay doesn't recognize that as a concept!).

It sounds to me like your account security was possibly compromised, and that they had determined that one or more of your auctions had been fraudulently submitted. (Not that you did that, but that someone hijacked your id and did it.) In that case, the safest thing they can do is just suspend your account (in this case, your id) until it can get rectified. That may be why you received no additional information from them, either. (One of the occasional annoyers on both eBay and this board has created feedback with stolen ids and phony auction listings.)

Keep us posted. We're rooting for you!

October 28, 2003 Jim Griffith <griffith@dweeb.org> http://album.dweeb.org
 

Jim

October 28, 2003 Bill Weiss

JIM G; I'll make you a deal. If eBay tells me it was because I'm a weenie, I will be pleased to have the label applied to me permanently....BUT.....if they do not, then YOU must wear the label permanently. Fair?

October 28, 2003 Jim Griffith <griffith@dweeb.org> http://album.dweeb.org
 

Jim

October 28, 2003 Bill Weiss

Sorry, I obviously did not mean "Live Hepp"....how about "Live Help"?

JIM G; Thanks man. Your always there, and I love you for it, even though.....it takes one to know one!

October 28, 2003 Bill Weiss

ROGER; We contacted Live Hepp many hours ago, then waited over one hour until they finally contacted us back. As part of what little they would tell us via computer, they stated that this situation warranted a live telephone call from eBay Security. They asked when they could reach us. We told them 6PM-9PM Eastern time, yet the call never came. That's what I referred to earlier when I said I finally did receive an email from them stating that they tried to call and could not get through. God fobid they would merely give ME a number to call and a live person to ask for! They do a great job of making relevent infomation as difficult to access as possible, and just as difficult to try to remedy a situation like this.

Don't get me wrong, I am sensible enough to understand that eBay can't simply make it VERY easy for just anyone to reach a live person just over any little thing. They would likely be flooded with contacts such that they couldn't possibly handle it all. But it seems to me that when something as serious as a total account suspension has taken place that a reasonable explaination should follow shortly - or am I being silly?

October 28, 2003 Jim Griffith <griffith@dweeb.org> http://album.dweeb.org
 

Jim (just trying to help)

October 28, 2003 Bill Weiss

To expand on some of your comments about the possibilities for our suspensions, DAVID B. suggests that because we promote our public auction on the "ABOUT ME" page could have caused it. We have had the promotion on our About Me page for many months without contact from eBay, so I doubt that's it. Interestingly though, last week the "About Me" page suddenly disappeared. It merely said "Default" when you clicked onto it! We contacted eBay, who came back with what I regarded as a lame explaination, to the effect that we apparantly tried to alter the page while they were experiencing technical problems and, oh yes, they were "sorry" for any inconvenience, but, too bad, you will have to type the whole page over again - which I just did a day or two ago. But the basic content on the page was about the same as the one that disappeared.

DAVE F. wonders if it could be because our account with eBay was overdue due to the previous credit card thefts we had. I doubt that one too, as once before we suddenly (months ago) got a notice from eBay stating that our balance was too high and we needed to pay it immediately or have our seller's account suspended - which also amazed us since the amount was, I think, about $700., which to me, seemed like an ill-advised demand on eBay's part. Nevertheless, we paid the entire amount that same day, and that ended that, thus my conclusion is that if you owe them what they perceive to be too much money, they warn you rather than outright suspend you.

Last, in case, in my wrath, I have failed to thank all of you who have contributed remarks about this situation, let me do so now...THANK YOU! Particularly to KEN SRAIL who was nice enough to call, and to ROGER H. who apparently sent several intercepted emails.

October 28, 2003 Roger Heath

Bill W Contact Live Help
Bill - Have you contacted Live Help. The person who helped me through my ID theft situation, seemed to have one of those huge screen many window open computers and was able to go everywhere at once. They were helpful and in 20 minutes on Live Help I had my account back a new password and emails addresses changed back. The only thing I personally had to do was go to my My Ebay Page > Preferences and change my passwrod, the Ebay employee didn't have access to change it. Everything else the employee was able to enter and fix. Give it a shot.

Roger

October 28, 2003 Brian R

Bill W
If you'll scroll down, you'll see that Ken S has offered to help. I assume he's a power seller, and can avail himself of live ebay help, as required. Maybe, you should take him up on it. If only on the basis, that the preferential treatment tiers, that ebay has set up sound so offensive.

October 28, 2003 Brian R

comming up!
Roger, name your flavor, and I'll be happy to serve it.
Although, I have no idea, what you and Jim W/S are talking about.
I sense, one or both of you, have been misidentified as someone else.
Or it may be that people are misspelling your names.
Which is an angst I can't come close to understanding.
Remember, that often here, I misspell my own name.
I assure you, this has absolutely nothing to do,
with being issued the EUSC liquor cabinet keys. ;o)

October 28, 2003 5:50PM Bill Weiss

Frustration!
Good evening everyone. As of this moment, we still have not been contacted although we did receive an email stating they TRIED to call me but could not get through! Since I WAS on the phone several times for a few minutes each time, I suppose it IS possible, but my bet is they may have tried one time, failed, and gave up. Great customer service! We also received an email listing all of our forthcoming auctions and advising they have been terminated and all fees placed into our account (refunded). Great! Obviously, that means once this gets straightened out - if ever - I will have to re-do all of them. REAL FAIR EBAY! We get suspended without explaination. Try to remedy it by contacting them and 10 hours later, no help.

In many resects eBay is a wonderful medium, but in others, it truly sucks! My wife's theory about all of this is, since our identity has been stolen twice before, she assumes it's been done again, and was caught quickly by eBay, but to protect everything, they suspend everything temporarily. I am not so sure. Many of you folks seem to write things suggesting that they suspend accounts for LOTS of reasons. So why don't they TELL you immediately when they do it? See, they SUCK!

PS I know some of this sounds childish, but I am very upset over this and am frustrated that we get nothing from eBay to at least explain it. If a reasonable explaination were forthcoming in a reasonably timely fashion, I can live with it, but so far....nothing!
 

October 28, 2003 Roger Heath

Wrong Name
Jim -
You could have been a Starkey, nickname Jimbo, but you lucked out and became a geologist instead of a musician.
Nevermind!

Roger, Not related to the Ex-Prime Minister of England, nor the candy bar manufacturere, nor the engraver of so many early English stamps. The talent is there for any of these occupations, but the South Seas called instead. Brian, where are you, I need a cold one.

October 28, 2003 Jim Whitford-Stark

Roger

If only Paul could spell my name correctly, along with about a zillion other people.
I hope message served in reaching audience that could have been most receptive.

At least we try to warn people about current forgeries.
If people want to buy them, I have no problem, as long as they know what they are buying.
And the sellers are honestly selling what they perceive are "real forgeries" rather than color printer manufactured or bogus toy set overprints.
The levels of expertise required to accomplish the different types of forgeries are I think outlined in Sheryll and my original article on eBay fraud.
That level of forgery expertise, to a large degree, determines the worthiness of collecting such items.
However, if someone like Slania had turned to "the dark side", we'd be experiencing very serious problems.

October 28, 2003 John Cunningham

Christo Sorry to delay a response to your post for a few days. You were correct that I forgot the value of civility in disagreement. I will work on incorporating manners in all of my future posts, even when I disagree.

Regards,

John C

October 28, 2003 16:29 Ken Srail

Sorry!
Sorry, Bob's not talking to himself. Ken's just getting senile and putting the wrong text in the wrong box... I called Bill and offered to help (but at the same time, expressed my doubts that my PS rep would be able to do much of anything. They're pretty worthless when you need them to help with something important.) All Bill needs to do is say the word and I'll get on the phone. Hopefully, the intial eBay contact with Bill will explain/rectify the situation to his satisfaction.

October 28, 2003 Roger Heath

GBCC Chronicle
Jim- It was mailed Oct 24 in Maine. Editor apologizes for delay. Last week I received a letter from England on third day in the mean time, I haven't received an item from Mauro in Uruguay (five weeks now), nor money from Northern Ireland 4 weeks now, nor a package of postcards from Northern Germany sent October 14, 2 of the three are registered.

Roger

October 28, 2003 Jim Whitford-Stark

Dang Roger, Chronicles gets to Hawaii before Texas!!

October 28, 2003 Roger Heath

GBCC & Ebay
Jim -
Yes, I'm still a member and received my October Chronicle yesterday. I noted your comments about forged GB overprints. Officially speaking on promises of autonomy, I think it reached a good audience.

Bill W -
I sent you an email through the Ebay system - Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 10:34:17 PST
I offered a couple of possibilities, but maybe you haven't received it

Roger

October 28, 2003 Alison Ruttenberg

Knud-Erik, I need your help!!!!
Can you email me at eddiephilatelic@hotmail.com as soon as you see this. I need the item numbers for the ended listings. Dan Neary, the ebay Vice President for collectibles dept, has emailed me back but he needs the item numbers of the erroneously ended auctions before he can research. Or, have your friend forward to me the emails they got from ended@ebay.com regarding the justification for deeming the Nazi philatelic items "offensive." Thank you in advance, Alison

October 28, 2003 Jim Whitford-Stark

What a day, still packing up the office ready for move.
Lectures and Curriculum Council meeting -aaaarrrgghh

Roger
Are you still in GBCC and if so have you got October issue yet?

October 28, 2003 The real Bob H.

Bill's problems

Not I, Jim, not I - wish I could help more directly. eBay says they will let anybody know why they were suspended - since e-mails didn't get there they may be going into a spam bucket and somebody complained. eBay tests those and if they don't get a reply they suspend the account...

October 28, 2003 Jim Griffith <griffith@dweeb.org> http://album.dweeb.org
 

Jim

October 28, 2003 15:26 Bob H

Bob H., I just got off the phone with Bill W. and offered to call my PS rep if he thinks it would help (he still had not heard from eBay when I talked to him a few minutes ago). Good suggestion.

October 28, 2003 David Benson

Another 2 countries added to the list of repatriating stamps to their homelands, Seychelles & Brunei,

David Benson

October 28, 2003 Bob H.

There is also a Live Help function - Link is here. I do not know if you can sign in to that or not but I'd sure try it.

October 28, 2003 15:10 Bjorn Munch

29 FEB
prometheus, what I would love to find is a cover dated 29 Feb 1900. :-) (or 1800 for that matter).
 

October 28, 2003 3:09 pm Bob in WA

sold as is
Chip -- I heard about that on the national news on NPR. Thanks for the link, it was fun to read.

October 28, 2003 15:05 Bjorn Munch

Credit cards
I had problems paying with PayPal on Sunday. After a 10s delay, I got a nast message telling me my CC had been denied. Now this has happened before and (I've figured) just means PayPal can't contact my card issuer. But this time it lasted more that 12 hours until it worked again. Could Bill's problem be related? On the other hand, you'd think he would get some kind of warning.
 

October 28, 2003 Bill Weiss

STILL BIG PROBLEMS!
Obviously this is serious. BOB H. says he sent us an email but we did not get it, which surely means our emails are being intercepted. All of our eBay activities have been suspended, all of our listed sales cancelled, all of our bids cancelled, we are now listed as an unregistered user, etc. Someone from eBay Security is supposed to be telephoning us with the next half hour. I WANT A LAWYER!

October 28, 2003 Chip G

As Is Auctions on Ebay
...now this is an auction description I enjoyed:
Sold As Is
C.

October 28, 2003 12:49 Ken Srail

eBay problems
eBay has been having numerous technical problems over the last several days. It's possible that some of the problems are related to that (especially the "My eBay" problems...)

October 28, 2003 12:34:56 pm Bob in WA

Prometheus -- They had weapons? I didn't notice.

October 28, 2003 Jim Griffith <griffith@dweeb.org> http://album.dweeb.org
 

Jim

October 28, 2003 Roger Heath

Ebay Credit Cards
Speculation here-
It is possible Ebay has a problem keeping track of credit card information. About two weeks ago I received an email from Ebay stating if I didn't provide a valid CC number to my seller's account, I owuld not be able to buy or sell. I did not respond to the email, but went to my Me Page and followed links through my account to get to the CC data input area. I entered the information as all the windows were blank. I thought, "OK, done", but two days later I received another email sounding more urgent! I follwed links to the Sellers Help Web Form and posted a message to the unknown helper, that I had done everything in my power to comply, and it all the person had to do was look at my account to confirm the fact.

The verifying factor in these emails from Ebay was the inclusion of my account sales data documenting my September and October sales. It wasn't a scam, but I think there was an internal Ebay problem. Like maybe one of the servers crashed and they had only saved old information!

Roger

October 28, 2003 11:10 Dave F. (moderator)

At Roger's request, I've inserted a disclaimer at that link he thoughtfully provided for us. (I think I'm going to brush up on my study of Japanese forgeries, if I have that to look forward to!)

Bill W: No doubt you will have found out by the time you read this, but I'm wondering if eBay still had your old credit card number (didn't you have to change them recently?) and your eBay fees were considered past due. Do let us know what happens once you find out more.

October 28, 2003 Roger Heath

David D
I'm sorry for the sneak attack. I will be more considerate in future.

When I saw Scott's comment, I couldn't resist.

Roger

October 28, 2003 David Benson

Bill, presume someone complained about your ME page. One of Ebay's rulings is that ME pages should not mention auctions.


David B.

October 28, 2003 Bob H.

Bill
Sent Bill some suggestions as to what he can do - my e-mail did not bounce so that shouldn't be the problem. Anything else, he should get a notification of why.

October 28, 2003 David D'

Roger Heath -
please place a warning in your post the next time you post a link like that - some of us read this board from work. While I personally am not offended, I would be in BIG trouble if I was observed viewing that image in the office.

October 28, 2003 Bob H

Bill
Wonder if his e-mail bounced and somebody reported it? Those people never know what hit them since they don't get an e-mail to explain it..

October 28, 2003 prometheus

newbie question
newbie question of the day, How do I tell if the grill points are DOWN ??
Is there a easy way, study harder, practice,practice,practice??

 

October 28, 2003 Chip G

Bill Weiss has a problem
yes, it appears Bill W has a real problem (rather than an unreal problem)

October 28, 2003 Scott Trepel

Roger H:
Great minds think alike.

Bill W:
The Bissell cover and Cal Hahn article are going out to you today by Fedex. Have fun.

October 28, 2003 Prometheus

Bob H
He is showing as Not a Registered User.

October 28, 2003 prometheus

OH NO mister Bill NARUed
looks like some one got to Bill W.
 

October 28, 2003 Bob Hohertz

suspension

Bill - are you SURE that is true? Many of the scam e-mails start out that way. Have you logged on to eBay itself and looked? If so, go to the Emergency Contact Board and I'll post a link to Live Help for you.

October 28, 2003 Roger Heath

Expert's Challenge
Bill -
I didn't mention that's My Team, and I have them training here in Hawaii awaiting the outcome of the Grinnel findings. The BPA will never know what hit them, if its decision is not thoroughly explained and documented.

Roger

October 28, 2003 prometheus

Roger
you need to retitle that Pic, those ain't guerillas, look at the weapons, JUST HUNTERS.

October 28, 2003 Bill Weiss

BIG PROBLEM!!!
I DO have a serious problem....suddenly, within the last hour, we have received emails from eBay to the affect that all of our eBay activity has been suspended - for now reason or explaination, can anyone here enlighten me as to what I should do? How the hell can I get a live message to eBay?? Help!!

October 28, 2003 Bill Weiss

Great Link!
ROGER; I have to go out for a few hours, but I must say that is probably the most INTERESTING link I've seen on here!

October 28, 2003 Roger Heath

Experts Challenge
Scott -
Just what you're looking for, but they could be tougher than you guys! [warning: a more adult image than we're accustomed to on here; you may prefer to check this out from home]

Roger
 

October 28, 2003 prometheus

Brian
I think that any/every profession has it's cliques/groups,
It's the nature of the Tribal/pack animals that we humans are.
Recently while checking on a Jobsite crew (for my mom) i watched two Structural Engineers argue over what was the Proper way to adjust a job that some one else had designed , After two hours with no solution , a guy with no education (but 23 years eperience)
jumped in the hole with a yellow crayon put some marks on the forms and rebar explained How it could be done , how it should be done why it was the only way it could be done , and then DID it.
The two experts in their field continued to argue with each other even after the concrete was being troweled .
The Job Boss and the Inspectors accepted the way it was done and I bet that the 2 engineers are still mad at each other for what each saw as the Others failure.

October 28, 2003 Scott Trepel

Brian R

Excellent idea. Except I would add some half-naked women to cheer us on.

October 28, 2003 Brian R

what to do about experts
I begining to think that the philatelic community, should demand that the big three expertization services, be subjected to a special edition of suvivor. Plunk all of the committee members, together down on some malarial infested desert island, and then subject them to challenges. Misidentify a regum job, and you have to eat a live centipede. Approve a fake cancel, and you're tasked with hunting down, and capturing a poisonous snake. That sort of thing. Whoever, phyically survives, gets to call themselves top dog. It would be quite entertaining, as well as a faster & better method, of determining an answer, than having them hurling charges around the message boards at each other.

October 28, 2003 prometheus

NOIP 29 feb
just got a 29th feb 1892 for my leap year grouping -me happy camper.

October 28, 2003 prometheus <Prometheus@1Internetdrive.com> http://interestingcancels.mysite.freeserve.com/
 

anne + Duncan
Anne - I was being gender neutral , My girl friend rites in the snow better than I do.

Duncan- The highest points are awarded on artistic merit. and Penmanship.

October 28, 2003 Ken Lawrence <apsken@aol.com>

Scott Trepel, Last Words

Perceptions are strange things. Bill Weiss urged my participation here, which brought me on against my better judgment. I put forward a clearly labeled partisan but factual summary of philatelic expertizing as it is and has been practised in the United States. Then you came on, and Bill thanked both of us. Now you're leaving in a snit.

If you think an honest discussion of the expertizing process is inappropriate, that's a shame, especially since so much of it has become the perennial subject of vigorous gossip in the stamp trade. Here we can get to the bottom of these rumors and sort truth from fiction if we engage in serious give and take.

It's true I feel violated. Boys Town had sought my advice, first about getting the Orangeburg coil pair authenticated, next about publicizing the discovery, finally about selling it. I told Boys Town that Siegel's Rarities sale would be the best place to get the highest realization. You expressed your gratitude for that referral with a kick in the teeth. APEX had assembled the best possible group of coil experts to examine the stamp. You did not trust them. I think I never felt so disappointed in my hobby as the day in New York when Bill Crowe said he would certify the pair as fake, because the word was all over town (that was the Mega Event week), and already the taunts at APEX were being thrown in my face. I returned home wondering why this was happening, and what good it could be doing for the hobby. It's one thing for experts to disagree; another altogether for the disagreement to have an ulterior motive and driving force. Then to add insult, Bill Crowe's superiors ordered him to resign from our expert committee. PF staff was never the problem in any of this.

I did not cheer when the truth about the Orangeburg was revealed, previously and subsequently certified as genuine by the PF, but I did breathe a sigh of relief. What possible benefit could have resulted from such intrigue?

Dick Graham has a comparable sad story about the hubris involved in PF's declaring Scott Gallagher's 10-cent Knoxville Provisional cover a fake, and never apologizing when its error was proven. His grievance predates mine by a long time.

So we are left with your allegation that you were merely reprising my alleged "attempts to discredit PF." Pray, what might those have been? Before the Orangeburg fiasco, I naively believed everybody was doing the best they could, and would help each other. That episode was the one that sobered me on the subject.

As best I can recall, my only earlier venture into this thicket was when I poked fun at PF's report on Harry Hagendorf's miracle Columbian wrapper, inventing a rate that did not exist and hypothesizing a steamer trunk as contents in justification for certifying it. My Congress Book article on the 1-cent Z grill explored every point of view thoroughly and fairly, and made no mention or suggestion of any alternative to the PF. My history of APEX disparaged no competitors.

Before then I was a bystander to the Wurdeman scandal, writing nothing on that subject myself, and certainly not holding the honest PF people responsible for it. I assigned a scrupulously fair reporter to cover the Sachs/Ivy scandal, and directed all my polemics against Joe Puleo for his ulterior motives and PSE for its unholy alliance with Puleo. But Tom Maeder's article, which I published, asserted his continuing faith in the PF and its steps toward reform. During the Rosende scandal I also abstained, despite its wonderful material for comedians, and passed along all the leaked material to other reporters for their evaluation. So your allegation against me is false, but I won't hold my breath awaiting your apology.

October 28, 2003 Scott Trepel <strepel@siegelauctions.com> http://www.siegelauctions.com
 

Expertizing
KEN L:

You cannot make the charge of favoritism and NOT discredit the P.F. staff. Favoritism by definition requires the participation of both parties: the one asking the favor and the one granting the favor. I had hoped to see an unqualified retraction of the insult to the P.F. staff, but along with your praise of their ethics you characterized my defense of the P.F. staff as disingenuous. I made my point. I'll leave it at that.

Yes, at a time when you were issuing public statements challenging or attempting to discredit the P.F., as you have done here, I was one of the Board members who felt there was nothing to be gained by assisting APEX (although I was not the most vocal of opponents). Considering the content and tone of your postings here, which may or may not speak for APEX, I personally do not see any benefit to reestablishing ties between APEX and P.F., but I do wish APEX every success.

As a P.F. Board member, I am legally and ethically responsible to that institution and the public it serves. If you wish to describe that as "partisanship", guilty as charged.

The Orangeburg story and other matters you allude to in your posting are not subjects appropriate for this public forum. If you wish to discuss any differences of opinion or concerns over how anything has been handled by the P.F., I refer you to the P.F. Chairman, George Kramer, who I am sure will be happy to respond to you in a more appropriate setting.

Bill W. asked me to enter this discussion, and I did. However, I am uncomfortable with my role as a defender of the P.F. I cannot speak for the P.F. or its entire Board, so I will no longer post on this subject. Therefore, you will have the last word, and I urge you to be moderate and less confrontational, for everyone's benefit.

October 28, 2003 8:52 a.m.c.d.t. John@MagnoliaStamps

Hi-Ho-Hi-Ho
And it's off to work I go! Yes I hate it but its time to return to the ranks of the employed.In other words the party is over,and so is the weeks vacation,I've one more coming maybe I'll take it next month next month,So now it's off to upstate N.Y. Oh boy big fun and big money as once again I hit the road for more fun and excitement.So watch for me along the I-75,I-40 & I-81 coridors in the good old u.s.a. I'll be the one in the big white truck hauling furniture for a company that employs more illegle mexicans than Wal-Mart ever thought about.

John in Ms headed to N.Y.

October 28, 2003 Bill Weiss

VARIOUS
KEN L; Question; If the "J" grill was nothing more than an essay, how do you explain the fact that there are obviously way more of the 3c value probably than all the other values combined? What would be the point to grilling a much larger quantity of one value> And why the most prolifically-used value?

ROGER H; The point of someone having a professional restorer remove the pen cancel from the $20. State was obviously to commit a fraudulent act. THe value of the "mint" stamp thus created was far in excess of the value as a "used" copy. I doubt that it was done to make an expert service look bad.

October 28, 2003 Ken Lawrence <apsken@aiol.com>

Continental Grills
Clark,

Had it not been for John Luff's unique status, no one ever would have regarded J grills as stamps. Maybe as a joke while they were finishing stamps for Peru, someone ran one pane each of most U.S. denomintions through the griller. :-) All serious scholars since Stevenson have regarded J grills as essays, along with Luff's unused 1-cent C grill and 3-cent B grill. But once such items are listed in the front of the catalog, it takes a lot to pull them out, especially because they do no harm there except for the confusion they bring, while moving anything to the back always evokes terrible wails from the marketplace.

October 28, 2003 05:09 Ken Srail

If the technology problems ever get worked out, it probably won't be good news for auction agents (their role won’t be eliminated, but will be reduced). The concept is a good one -- it allows you to sit at your computer, follow the auction/bids "real time", and place a bid in an "instant", just as if you were attending the auction in person. It’s unlikely this technology will be “meaningful” though until everyone has a broadband connection and the technical bugs are worked out. We're not there yet, on either count.
 

October 28, 2003 Tom Lowe

I just know that garden hose is going to save us all.

October 28, 2003 John@MagnoliaStamps

John

October 28, 2003 Jim Lawler

Patrick Lemon
In the US Precancels started with the first stamp. And yes, there is value to early precancels. Generally it‘s the 1890’s when precancels being their run, before the 1920’s is considered to be the “Classic” period. Sometimes, but not always, the precancel is of greater value than the stamp on which it is found. Do check out Bill’s link, there’s much good info there.

Jim L.

October 28, 2003 03:32 Jim Watson

Today in Postal History
Good Morning, Everyone!
Today's dated postal history item is a cover from Peru to the United States in 1884. It came from the U. S. Ship Monongahela!

October 28, 2003 Lavar Taylor

Dave F. -- Thanks. Will post a picture of the cake at a later date (still don't have a digital camera). My mom's place is ok for now. Have a few friends and relatives down in San Diego that I am worried about.

October 28, 2003 Roger Heath

Voting
Lavar -
I believe some of the Hawaii votes are finally coming. I assumed they had already been counted. As usual things here sometimes take longer to complete, and anyway the surf was up election day, so the polls were closed. It took a minor scandal to reopen them after the election was closed in California because, as usual, everyone had conceded before the election was over. I was able to swing a few votes since I told people you must be a cool candidate working on briefs all the time. They though California was more formal. Luckily they never saw you with the "tie".

Roger

October 28, 2003 23:15 Dave F. (moderator)

Lavar: Congrats on the baking fest. You wouldn't have a picture of this masterpiece, by any chance, would you? Also, my thoughts are with your family and your displaced mother. Have you learned any more about whether she incurred any damage? (This is the most frustrating thing for my friends -- not knowing the status of things.)

October 28, 2003 Lavar Taylor

Well, my effort to reach the 1000 vote mark in the California guvernatorial election is getting exciting. Out of nowhere, I appear to have picked up 100 more votes, so my vote total is now 836. Can't figure out what happened. I noticed, however, that I am now well over the 100 vote mark in Monterey County, which is more than I received in my home county of Orange. Maybe some of the voters up there got my last name confused with Arnold's last name.

October 27, 2003 Lavar Taylor

I won't be doing a postal history posting tonight as I am back at the office to work on my Supreme court brief (due in 2 weeks). This after winning the "tallest cake" award in my son's Cub Scout Pack's annual "Feller's cake bake" earlier tonight. The scout and dad (or some other man-- NO women) must design, bake and decorate a cake, based on the announced theme, and everything on the cake must be edible. This year's theme was "Once upon a time...". Our cake illustrated Jack and the beanstalk. We baked a sheet cake, covered it with frosting, and built Jack's house using pretzel sticks and liquified sugar to hold them together. Built the roof out of uncooked basil fettuccini. Then surrounded the cake with pretzel squares as a fence, and used cheezits as the stepping stones in the path to the gate. The beanstalk was made with two 6 inch long circular pastry tubes filled with some creamy stuff, held together by a long piece of uncooked basil fettuccini inserted into the hollow middle, through the creamy stuff, and covered with green frosting. Then some yellow jelly beans for the golden eggs, and "Fee Fi Fo Fum" written on the front in case nobody could recognize what the hell we made. I am afraid to find out what it tastes like, but I will have some for dessert after I get home early tomorrow am.

October 27, 2003 Roger Heath

Varia
Anne-
I always believed that women use their brains in situations as we've seen here over the last 48 hours.

Brian -
I agree. I think the reason the auction you are questioning is the proverbial fish out of water. I would guess that many more sellers on Ebay own the items they are auctioning reather than selling on consignment. From what I've read you can be certain your stamp won't be sent 1st Class USPS. I guess there is prestige in using Fex-Ed, which doesn't cover (?) stamps whithin its insurance package.

NOIP -
I'm amazed at the animosity of the various individuals involved in expertizing services. The points I get out of it is that APEX takes too long for the dealers, who are on a deadline to produce catalogues and sell the product. Generally collectors send items to APEX becasue they are members of the organization, and don't mind waiting if it saves money. They just spent the money on the item and it is going into their collection for maybe years.

I'm also amazed that no one else has commented so far as to the ethics of the $20 stamp having a pen cancel professionally restored (removed) and this information is not passed on to the expertising committee. It sounds like either an attempt to embarrass the committee, or attempted fraud. Gee, and I thought Ebay was the place we were supposed to beware. The more I read some of the expert testimony, the more likely it seems one should always buy on extension. Is this an industry pass-the-buck, similar to Ebay passing-the-buck to APS? Is abrogating responsibility becoming common business practice? Getting closer every day it seems to me!

Roger

October 27, 2003 Duncan Doenitz

388 Pair (1910 2c Washington coil)

I should've mentioned, I like the seller, I've had good luck buying from him in the past. I've received stamps from him that were better than described. The fisheye lens appearance of his stamps may turn some buyers off, so he provides some good bargains.

Dunc

October 27, 2003 2103 Clark (reperf)

388 Pair
Duncan Doenitz

The holes are well enough aligned horizontally. The change on the left side is small enough considering that the imperf strip may have been pushed through a guide or jig to keep the rows in alignment under the (re)perforating machine. Oddly enough, this pair is a bit short, and the perforations wander along the center line a bit to the right and have slightly uneven vertical spacing although they look more realistic. Most importantly, the perforations appear to be a metric perf 12 instead of the correct 12-66 (about 11.9) as measured by the Kiusalas gauge.

Ideally, direct examination is necessary, but the seller may already have additional insight as to what the outcome would be.

October 27, 2003 Brian R

I think the basic root problem here, is I just don't understand, what that auction is.

October 27, 2003 Brian R

Bill W
If sellers, attempted to impose the premium system to online auctions, it would last about five minutes. Sellers would instantly find they needed to offer rebates to even attract bids. That's why I'm so confused about what that Bennet auction really represents. Either you offer the item in one world or the other. They don't blend very well.

October 27, 2003 anne

Good night to all and to all sweet dreams of an end to California wild fires, J grills and other phiatelic goodies, and continuing illuminating discussions of expertizing.

October 27, 2003 Brian R

help, now I'm really confused
IF that Bennet auction is really an electronic one,
what fool will ever consign items again, to one of the traditional houses?
IF it is, are they nipping the consignee for a sellers premium too?
Maybe I'LL start an electronic auction service, with full premiums attached too.
Seems the only loser in this, are those that operate as agents.
and the sellers.
and the buyers.

October 27, 2003 Bill Weiss

Last Post of Night
BRIAN; Yes, I was going to say the same thing, and that is, what's the difference so long as it's a "traditional" auction as well as online? If you accept the validity of the BP in a non-online auction, then it should also be OK if also online. Now my question to you is, suppose in the future online sellers started to impose a BP and it became widely used (assuming it's allowed on eBay(?), then what would you do - stop bidding online? Don't misunderstand me here, I just want your opinion, I actually agree with you about an online BP.

CLARK; So far as I know, there is no "new" facts about the Continental grill. They are not really rare on the 3c ("scarce" is more appropriate). I'm somewhat suprised at Brookman's comments, but I will say that I have never seen a USED Continental grill, although Scott does price it on the 2c value (#157). Let's see if any of the other board experts can add to this topic.

October 27, 2003 Jim Griffith <griffith@dweeb.org> http://album.dweeb.org
 

Jim

October 27, 2003 Bill Dempwolf

Bill

October 27, 2003 Brian R

Scared the heck out of me though....:o)

October 27, 2003 2030 Clark (reperf)

He then goes on in a long pair of paragraphs to question John Luff's information and the notion that his "friend" was so lucky or "psychic" to find one or two copies of each on eight denominations and a cardboard proof item, unlike any other. He ends with the quote (take note APEX, PF and PSE partisans):

"Might not this be a mistake not yet recognized? And if it is a msitake, wouldn't John Luff be the first to want it corrected? That is the way we feel about it and we feel certain that Luff would say that we have a perfect right to our opinion - and you to yours - whatever that may be."

My original question was whether there is new research validating the J grills.

October 27, 2003 Duncan Doenitz

388 pair

Clark

Well I'm kinda clueless yet about these older stamps, but let me guess. The "as is" pair offered in your link has perf holes that look a little too perfect to you and too small so the pair probably began life as imperforate stamps, like the other pair did. At least the left side perfs on one are not aligned perfectly with the other perf rows though.

But the dark heavily inked line of the line pair looks like the same heavy inking I saw on a certified single with traces of the line showing.

Jim G

Thanks for the information earlier on the counterfeiting laws, the other government sites often don't make it clear if they apply to just US stamps or foreign items as well.

And I noticed some time ago that you did add the Scott #2531A '91 Liberty torch variety to your album. Cool!

Dunc

"No comment on the pissing contests, despite the temptation."
.
.
.
.
.
"Aaaargh! Okay, which society would be selected to judge such an event, and would they favor accuracy, distance, or volume?"

October 27, 2003 Brian R

HOWEVER, once the same auctions are plunked into the "e-world",
ALL of those reasons are invalid.A buyers premium, in an electronic auction, is an outright rape, pure and simple.
I will quit collecting before I ever pay one.

October 27, 2003 David Benson

John, I always look out for Canadian Circle numerals, been doing it for about 40 years. Hard to find them these days, some other XXXXXXX must have seen them before me,

Dvid B.

October 27, 2003 2013 Clark (reperf)

388 and 482A
prometheus

You would have a better chance paying $2.97 for the "482A" lot. Who in their right mind would sell a genuine line pair of #388 on eBay when it could be listed and sold in "Rarities of the World" or some other major auction? I still have 10 pairs of fake 388s, which I am in the process of placing in reference collections where they will stay out of circulation. They are of interest because I know for sure who made them and unfortunately they were made in large quantities.

Actually, your best odds are with three card monte.

October 27, 2003 Bill Weiss

Various
CLARK; I am not familiar with Brookman's feelings about the Continental grill or I've forgotton them. Can you enlighten me? I am as reasonably familiar with the CBNCo grill as most, I guess, and have expertized a number of them, all, I believe, on the 3c, which is why I am interested to learn what Brookman thought.

BRIAN R; I was suprised to see Bennett with a 15% BP since they have traditionally been a 10% house. I am wondering whether it's 15% ONLY for eBay bidders and 10% for other bidders? If so, I wonder if that's entirely legal? If not, then suddenly they are a 15% house!

JIM G; We both know that there will be some pissing contents. I think the attempt to keep them at a minimum is what's important. I think there is a good basis now for serious, responsible discussions on the subject of expertizing. I thought Ken L's earlier posts today were all tempered moreso than some of his much earlier and I think Randy's last post lays the groundwork for some open discussions. Scott T. hopefully will now respond to Ken's pertinent questions about the PF and then let's see where we can go from there.

One quick comment about the $20. State Dept that is referenced here and the fact that it received a good PSE cert. after professional restoration artist Nancy Poli removed a magenta pen "presentation" cancel from it, and that is the fact that as an expert, I frankly would not under ordinary circumstances ever check with UV the face of a stamp that I strongly felt was OG AND NH. Once I've decided that it's OG and NH, there is nothing to make me suspect that something has been cleaned from the face. For those unfamiliar with presentation copies, they were mint stamps, with OG (thus originally NH) to which a small magenta pen marking was applied on the face, sometimes in a small "X" and sometimes in a straight line across the stamp. They were given, we are told, to foreign postal authorities as samples of newly issued stamps. I only tell all this so that the neutral viewers among us can better appreciate how such an erroneous opinion could have easily been made.

October 27, 2003 prometheus <Prometheus@1Internetdrive.com> http://interestingcancels.mysite.freeserve.com/
 

Various
Patrick L= I have the 300 - 310 Precancelled Chicago and see them a lot.

Donald F- I have all my stamps, 21,000 + Postcards ,1114 Covers all on CD. My recent worry is the report I read that CD's are not the Long term storage solution and the Info stored will degrade .

JIM G - I enjoy internet Pissing contests among well matched opponents , I think it helps Me form my view of the situation , and while sometimes a waste of Bandwidth, I think that sometimes the light needs to be broken down by the prism of Life.
Just to avoid the glare.

Clark - Please enlighten on the coils ,Do i understand the new rules if I bid and won that pair sent for cert and got refused I get my
money back OR does the AS IS disclaimer and low start save the PS

JOHN Mag Stamps Do you really doubt the description on that listing I'm sure most of them are 482A's aren't U? I almost joined ebay to bid on some of your canadian stuff, almost.

David B Do you play with the images to read those almost cancels , Or is it just that you have seen/know so many it is apparent to you??
 

October 27, 2003 Brian R

hmmmm
An ebay live auction with a 15% buyers premium.
I wonder how that'll fly in the e-world?
I know a traditional auction without one is the exception
The other way around for people at home with their monitors.
I predict a 15% non-pay situation, when bidders realize, that's their fee.

October 27, 2003 Donald Fritze

Jim W-S, now there's a userid I know. You have an absolutely fascinating collection there and I note many have no "courtesy of" caption. I really like the way you organized it. I've bookmarked your page, too. :-) It's going to be something enjoyable one of those frosty Iowa nights.

October 27, 2003 1912 Clark (reperf)

Continental J Grills and 388
To the experts and others present:

Here is a J Grill with a certificate. The Matthew Bennett listings may be the start of a very positive change at eBay.

Since Lester Brookman was not particularly fond of the J grills, does that mean there may be some doubt as to their authenticity? The stamp has a 1980 APS certificate. What would be the likely outcome in a re-certification by APEX, PF or PSE?

Also, what might this 388 line pair just listed on eBay and this fake 388 pair have in common?
 

October 27, 2003 David Benson

John, most probably they were both after the cancel.

David Benson

October 27, 2003 John

This is a good example of what happens when someone does the sniping thing.look here.I can'y believe it!

October 27, 2003 Jim Griffith <griffith@dweeb.org> http://album.dweeb.org
 

Jim

October 27, 2003 Jim Whitford-Stark

Donald

I like to "exhibit" my thematic collection though it forms but a small part of my total collection.
Not for insurance but, I hope educational purposes.
The vast majority of the stamps have little monetary value, but I find them pretty and exhibiting them has taught me a lot about web sites.
And also has made me a lot of new friends who have contributed their duplicates to make it a web site rather than my web site. Though, obviously I get the last word as to what is exhibitied.

October 27, 2003 John@Magnolia Satmps

My wife likes your long hair! But then again mine was longer when I played in the bubblegum band in the late 60s and early 70s..Yummy Yummy!

John

October 27, 2003 Randy Shoemaker

REply to Ken L.
I guess you just can't help yourself. By the way, PSE has always admitted we made an error on the State Department stamp...thanks to Nanci Poli who claims she never works on stamps, especially a NH Dollar State Dep't. I really don't think you want to start going over individual opinions in public either. Trust me.

The real point of this discussion should be what makes an Expert committee work, how does each arrive at solid opinions and where should the collector go when he has a question. Does value mean something? Turnaround time? Ease of use? Approachability? Services provided? Other intangibles? The quality of experts employed? The experts level of experience? Use of scientific equipment? and a host of other questions I'm sure. Maybe the collecting community might get something out of that discussion.

-Randy Shoemaker

October 27, 2003 Jim Griffith <griffith@dweeb.org> http://album.dweeb.org
 

Jim

October 27, 2003 John@ magnolia stamps

How many 482a's can be in this lot?

October 27, 2003 Donald Fritze

Jim G, impressive! You're sane. I've got a used (throughout) collection so I have a few more items than you and instead of pages I'm re-mounting and scanning at the same time (individual stamps). Now you can say I'm nuts. The two very nice ladies appear sane and I'm guessing they're not you're sisters.

October 27, 2003 Jim Griffith <griffith@dweeb.org> http://album.dweeb.org
 

Jim

October 27, 2003 Ken Lawrence <apsken@aol.com>

Reply to Randy Shoemaker

Why bother, you ask? Well, just for a couple of small points. Despite his feisty denial here, I have called and spoken to J. Randall on a handful of occasions, each one being when I was writing an article for publication, and each time I got a runaround. First was when I published in The Philatelic Communicator his memo to his experts that stated which kinds of faults to “call” and which not to call on the worksheet. Second was when I wrote the article for Linn’s on the cleaned cancel $20 State Department Official, certified by PSE as “unused, o.g.” That time he said he’d find and send me a copy of the worksheet, but when it never arrived, I called again and he said he could not find it. This is significant only because Dick Champagne, whose name appeared on the certificate, could not recall having seen the stamp. I’d still like to see it, if it has turned up. Another time was when Joe Puleo boasted of his involvement in launching PSE. Randy denied it, but agreed that he had given Puleo the interview published in The Stamper. He was evasive when I asked how Puleo came into possession of his confidential ASDA complaint against the Sachses. I’m sure he’s just had a lapse of memory about these conversations, so I forgive him. I won’t denounce him as a witless windbag or any of the other colorful terms that grace this board when temperatures rise.

Bill Weiss, thanks, but no need to apologize.

Good night all.

October 27, 2003 Ken Lawrence <apsken@aol.com>

True Story

Six years ago APEX certified a mint pair of the legendary Orangeburg coil, Scott 389, as genuine, after Mick Hadley identified it at Boys Town and referred Steve Schoening of Boys Town to APEX. Mick has the best collection and exhibit of U.S. government coil stamps ever assembled. Every Washington-Franklin specialist collector and dealer I know regards Mick as an expert on government coils.

When the item came in, George Brett examined at it (who knows U.S. stamp better than he?), followed by W-F specialist collectors and authors Larry Weiss and George Wagner, Mark Larkin (who owned more Orangeburg coils than anyone else ever, including one on a Bell & Co. cover, the only user of the stamp), and me. (When Larry Weiss lived in New York, he, along with Ed Siskin, another APEX committee member, were regarded by the PF as the leading Washington-Franklin experts.) We unanimously signed on it as genuine. Everything was right -- star plate spacing, reversed inverted watermark, color shade, and height. Boys Town allowed us to exhibit it at APS Stampshow in Milwaukee that year.

A couple of years later, Boys Town consigned it to the R.A. Siegel auction for its Rarities of the World sale. But according to Steve Schoening, Scott Trepel rejected the APEX certificate, so he sent it to the PF. Several of their experts said it was a fake. The PF's senior expert Bill Crowe even published an article in the PF newsletter on how to expertize an Orangeburg, which got many things wrong, though a comprehensive series of articles by George Griffenhagen in the United States Specialist had corrected the misinformation that previous generations had been taught.

When Mercer and I visited the PF during that time, Bill Crowe told us he was going to give it a bad certificate, but Providence intervened to prevent that. What saved PF from self-inflicted ignominy was that the donor to Boys Town had made a mistake. He had switched his 389 (perf 12) and 394 (perf 8-1/2) 3-cent W-F coil pairs in his album, then gave the rare one to Boys Town by mistake and kept the cheap one. But he had an old 1960s PF cert proving the 389 was his, so Boys Town had Siegel retrieve it and return it. Finally the owner sold it a couple of years ago through Shreves, with a new PF certificate.

One member of PF's committee told me later that it had been a shameful experience, but he felt that some of the negative opinions were "political." All this as I report it here is very one-sided, and possibly even unfair, but this was a great disappointment to me, and part of the reason I take umbrage at those who disparage our APEX process.

Everybody makes mistakes including APEX, so I don't gloat about any of this. And every wrong opinion hurts all expert committees. But that's why we need the full range of collector, researcher, scholar, and dealer experts, not just one kind, and why we need to use the latest scientific techniques.

October 27, 2003 Bill Weiss

Cross-posts
MR. LAWRENCE - Very sorry that my post crossed over yours, as yours is certainly much more valuable, timely and interesting than mine!

October 27, 2003 Donald Fritze

One thing it's done is given me a real appreciation for what goes into a Siegel auction catalog. It's also made me newly appreciative of just how many stamps I have.

October 27, 2003 Ken Lawrence <apsken@aol.com>

Reply to Scott Trepel

The first point I need to make is that not one iota of my postings has disparaged the PF staff, except for those who were corrupt and are no longer around. Even during their tenure, the PF had wonderful, dedicated people, who often supplied writers like me with inside information, helping to hasten the necessary cleanup. So posturing as their champion scores no point against me.

Just the opposite. I have always advocated and practiced the highest degree of exchange and cooperation between APEX and the PF. But my understanding – I hope you’ll correct me if I’m wrong – is that you have opposed it, Scott. Until a few years ago, PF senior expert William Crowe was a valued member of the APS Expert Committee. His opinions were especially important in instances where the best opinion is obtained by comparison with referemce material in the Luff collection, because those stamps are the basis of the Scott catalog listings. We, in turn, have always provided whatever information or experience of ours can help the PF. After we exposed Ray Gregor’s fakes, I gave Bill Crowe a complete file of all his material that we had been able to discover. We invited Bill, Lou Grunin, and Bob Odenweller to demonstrations of the CS-16 Crimescope. But then Bill resigned from our committee, and has been unwilling to examine APEX submissions very since. My source on the PF Board said that occurred at your insistence. Is that true? If so, I urge you to reverse the decision. In recent conversations with George Kramer, I have proposed greater cooperation between APEX and the PF, and he agrees. I look forward toward greater cooperation between our organizations.

I do not for a minute question your sincerity, Scott. But the difficult part of this discussion is that you and your PF loyalist cadres have always asserted that the PF is best, no matter how bad it got. The Wurdeman scandal, the Ivy/Sachs scandal, and the Rosende scandal came and went without a moment’s contrition from the PF’s defenders. Such loyalty is touching, I suppose, but to outsiders it has more the aroma of vested interests circling the wagons, and does not promote confidence. Thus investigative reporters like myself, whom you often treat as adversaries, are left to dig out the truth as best we can and to report it without benefit of an official accounting. Fortunately for all concerned, the evidence we unearthed supported the view that real reforms were implemented. But if even a small number of Jack Molesworth’s tales about uncompensated victims are true, some wrongs still ought to be addressed.

As for special treatment for privileged big dealers and donors, I would happily apologize if I’m mistaken, and I hope I am. But if I am, so is almost every stamp dealer I know; they assume that the big firms have privileged access, and are not shy in griping about that. A few years ago I tried to persuade a major dealer who is also a personal friend and supporter to send more of his material to APEX. He said that because of his volume, he gets express treatment from the PF, and that being at the head of the queue is important in the timing of his sales. He asked if APEX would do the same, and I said No, every item gets logged in and processed in sequence. Besides that conversation, a former PF employee told me about the frequent calls from one major auction firm owner (not Scott, who is a gentleman), demanding service that required putting his work ahead of all the rest.

That is history. At present those of us who are trying to develop a closer working relationship are meeting resistance from people who, by all appearances, have a vested interest in discrediting APEX. From this discussion, Scott is not among them, and I’m pleased about that. But it hasn’t always been so.

October 27, 2003 Bill Weiss

Precancels
19th Century precancels exist as far back as, I believe, 1844, with the first recorded being pen precancels used on stamps of Independent Mail Carriers, Hale & Co, and the American Letter Mail Co., handstamp precancels began in 1847 and continued all through the 19th C. The Scott Specialized lists a number of them on various stamps. While I personally like the 19th C. precancel material, the countless examples that exist from the 20th century leave me cold - but God bless anyone who does like them, and that's what makes this hobby interesting, the diverse things which folks like to collect.

October 27, 2003 Ken Lawrence <apsken@aol.com>

Context

Let me set forth a few basic points before I return to the debate. All recognized philatelic expertizing services perform a good and necessary service for the stamp hobby. The presence of several, each with its own strengths and varying perspectives and experience, is good for all of us. By giving collectors a choice, they all have challenges and incentives to perform as well and as efficiently as possible, and to provide the most competent opinions.

Though it isn’t widely known, many experts examine submissions for two or three committees. On a couple of opinions, dealers have upbraided me for opinions on APEX certificates on stamps that were returned to them, but when I examined the worksheets, the signatures were well-known dealers who also examine stamps for the PF and PSE. There are few instances of serious disagreements among experts.

Human nature is such that people prefer to associate with familiar colleagues and communities, while sometimes being uncomfortable in unfamiliar situations. Habits are hard to break, especially if there are no strong reasons to break them. Psychologically, most people when challenged will defend their habits as virtues.

On-line chats carry with them all these burdens, so it’s exceptionally important in this debate to keep the basics firmly in mind. For the purpose of this exchange, almost every APEX or PF or PSE certificate will express the same consensus of expert opinion. So our disagreements mostly concern which committee is most reliable to evaluate exceptionally difficult stamps or covers. Few collectors submit such material for certification.

The suggestion that three experts is better than one or two to certify a splendid Graf Zeppelin stamp or a not-so-splendid $5 Columbian commemorative is silly, in my opinion, and needlessly mystifies what experts do. But a complex cover may need to be examined by a specialist in the stamp(s) on it, an expert in U.S. postal markings of the period and another of a foreign country’s postal history, a scholar of ship schedules, a historian of the origin and destination towns and their people, a researcher in writing materials of the period, and a forensic examiner. In the former examples, all expert committees will sparkle. In the latter, whichever team can assemble the best group and technology will excel, and that won’t be the same team every time.

So here we are. I am a partisan of APEX, trying my best to assure that APEX has the ability to assemble that team for you any time you need it, at a modest cost, and as efficiently as possible. Scott Trepel is a worthy partisan of the Philatelic Foundation, asserting the same for his team. Randy Shoemaker also has made his appearance, though the worth of his statement is less evident.

Finally, before rejoining the debate, bear in mind that tone is sometimes difficult to detect on chat boards. I personally enjoy spirited debate, and I intend no offense to anyone. Others, especially some who take offense easily, wrongly regard almost any sharply worded exchange as an expression of hostility, or to take criticisms personally, no matter how carefully focused the postings may be. This boards participants include some malevolent posters, but not many.

October 27, 2003 Bill Dempwolf <bdempwolf at austin.rr.com>

Bill

October 27, 2003 Donald Fritze

Bob H, sorry, I didn't connect that there were no known imperforates. Thick head sometimes. The opinion now seems quite appropriate.

October 27, 2003 Lavar Taylor

Just to clarify the facts regarding my submission to the expert. Submission was done through a third party here in the US, who sent the stuff over for me with his own material. Third party is both a collector and dealer. I am fairly certain that the third party told the expertizer that some of the material sent belonged to someone else, without naming me by name. Expertizer then contacts third party, says the item is genuine (without providing any details), and asks about possible sale, without discussing price. Third party contacts me and relays the message. I say I am not interested in selling. I get the item back expertized as genuine.

October 27, 2003 Bob H.

And yes, they could have given a "no opinion" - which is all I could have argued for.

October 27, 2003 17:17 Patrick Lemon <plemon@paladigm.com>

Precancels
For anyone knowledgeable in precancels - I can across a US #300 on cover precancelled Elgin, Ill. I wasn't aware that precancels had started that early. My questions are: 1) When did precancels first begin? and 2) Is there any value to early precancels?

October 27, 2003 Bob H.

I could have argued, but again, I would not expect anyone to agree that it was a new discovery on the basis of that stamp. It did not cost me anything to speak of - the dealer gave it to me for the cost of the cert.

October 27, 2003 David Benson

Donald & Bill,

I cannot comment as I do not know the arrangements between a German expertiser and the BPP. There may be a clause in the original application form that forbids it. Will have to wait til a BPP certifier makes a comment. I have sent an email to one for his opinion, see what he says when he shows,

David B.

October 27, 2003 Rob Faux <rfaux "at" thefauxden "dot" net>

Two odd requests
At the risk of derailing whatever is going on here, I have two requests that I only have time to type, then I must go. Please respond to me via email, but I will also try to peak in here tomorrow.

1. I have a student who is looking to attend school in Australia for a semester. He is currently looking at the U at Sydney, the U at Melbourne and Macquarrie. If anyone is willing to give me some feedback or more local knowledge regarding these schools, he (and I) would be grateful.

2. My nephew is in a class that is currently sending a letter around that asks recipients to 1. send a note to the school asking for a postcard that tells/shows something about where people live. and 2. send the note on to someone else in a different location who would be willing to do the same. This would go on until May, at which time the last person sends the letter back to the school.

I think it would be a great learning experience for these kids if I could arrange a string of people from different countries and locations to mail this thing around and send postcards to them. Those who are interested, please contact me via email.

Rob

October 27, 2003 Donald Fritze

Bob H, are you saying the expertizer you contacted was in effect telling you he identified the item and wrote "genuine, but altered" when in effect he was saying "I don't know which it is"? Or do I have that wrong?

October 27, 2003 Bill Weiss

DONALD F; Well put by you and I totally agree!

October 27, 2003 Donald Fritze

Lavar, David, Jim, Bill, your discussion is the stuff murder movies are made of. I agree the expertizer is sending the strong appearance of a conflict of interest which should not be present in that setting. An executive is prohibited from trading his stock using information known only within the company. The mere accidental appearance of that circumstance may prompt investigation. There is information in the expertizer's head which can never be discounted enough. I believe expertizers should simply not invite the sale of material on which they opine. It's one of the prices for occupying the top dog position.

October 27, 2003 Jim Lawler

Bookmark

October 27, 2003 Jim Whitford-Stark

David B

Yes, nowadays it is probably difficult to get away with it.
And any honest expertizer wouldn't want to even try.
Gone are the days when the submitter and expertizer (or even committee) are the only ones that even saw the item.
Nowadays, both the item and certs can be viewed by thousands on the internet.
As George and other have shown, the hard work in correlating altered with previously unaltered stamps is an extremely feasible proposition.
Likewise getting "a friend" to buy a stamp or cover cheap on eBay and then having it turn up in an international display would be pretty difficult to get away with.
Lets just say not everyone is honest and monetary rewards, if sufficiently high, may transcend societal acceptance.

October 27, 2003 Bill Weiss

Offer To Buy
In my humble opinion, it is entirely inappropriate for an expert to use that position to make an offer. First of all, in the US, all submissions are totally secret from the experts. I don't have the foggiest idea who a particular submittor is, and nor should I. As an expert, I have seen lots of things I would have liked to own, either for resale or for me personally, but it strikes me as a serious abuse of my position to even think about it, and to do so IMO would constitute a conflict of interest. About the only way I can see it as a possibility would be for me to attach a note onto the finished item and ask the committee chairman to pass the note onto the owner, but even at that I get a funny feeling that I would be doing something inappropriate.

October 27, 2003 David Benson

Jim, too many implications for a certifier if he does naughty things. The word gets around and his livelyhood may be at risk as well as his good name. It is very difficult to get on the list of certifiers and once off, that's it,

David Benson

October 27, 2003 Jim Whitford-Stark

David B
I'm not in disagreement.
The way I read it was that Lavar was asking for a cert and the expertizer was making an offer before providing the cert.
If the expertizer was honest, I am sure they followed Lavars guidelines and provided an accurate cert.

If they were not honest, they could easily have provided a false cert, waited for Lavar to list it on eBay or wherever and got a rare item at a cheap price.
Of course, they would then have to lose the cert or get it recertified.

October 27, 2003 David Benson

Jim, it may have been an innocent comment as the expertiser may not have known the intent of the sender. He may have thought a cerificate was requested as the sender may want to sell it with a certificate. If the expert is a collector of that type of material I cannot see anything wrong with the request. If the intent was for possible resale at a profit then the motive was wrong and unethical,

David Benson

October 27, 2003 Jim Whitford-Stark

Chalk another one up to Bob H.
Dang bob, you're worse than me.

Lavar
I agree with you entirely.
If you submit an item that you suspect is rare and the expertizer knows that it is rare, they should not have used their position as an expert to become in contact with such material and to attempt to obtain it for themselves at a price which might be severely overridden were it placed on the open market with an accurate description (if only by themselves).

October 27, 2003 Lavar Taylor

I thought I would add another topic to the discussion on expertizing. On two occasions when I submitted a large group of material to a BPP expertizer in Germany, the expertizer told me that he wanted to buy a particular item for his own collection. I said "no thanks" because I wanted the items for my own collection. There is, of course, nothing illegal with making an offer to buy a particular item submitted for expertization, but it seems to me that expertizers are in a unique position because of their level of knowledge. I would like to think that the expertizers in question would not have taken advantage of his position if I had expressed an interest in selling, but it seems to me a policy of not soliciting a direct sale of material which you have in your possession for expertizing is the policy that will most promote a feeling of confidence among all of us non-experts. The expert can express an interest in an item without making an offer to buy it (such as by telling the owner that, if he ever wants to sell the item, the owner should feel free to contact him/her). Comments anyone?
 

October 27, 2003 Bob H.

To keep on topic, I have sent one item out to be expertized, and was not surprised when it came back with what was in effect a bad opinion. I sent it in as an imperf, and it came back as "genuine, but with trimmed perfs.." I strongly suspect the opinion is correct, but asked one of the signers, who said, in effect, that until a pair shows up, there is no way to prove it one way or another. I agree, but was glad I knew who the opiners were so I could at least ask.

October 27, 2003 Jim Whitford-Stark

Scott
Again I have to agree and disagee slightly but I'll do so within my own field rather than philately.
On the good side, once a person is awarded a Ph.D. they are regarded as the expert in that particular field.
A thesis defense should be a mere formality since of the members on the committe, only perhaps the thesis supervisor has an inkling of the knowledge gained by the Ph.D. candidate.
Theoretically, that person, if above reproach should be able to serve as an unbiased critic of whatever information (publishable articles) that appear before them.
Be they the only person who could make such a decision.

Unfortunately, several years ago a Ph.D. student at a prominant University presented a thesis describing completely new minerals comprising various compounds of Mercury.
The Ph.D. was duly awarded. An abreviated version of the thesis was printed in the American Mineralogist, a very respected journal.
Subsequent analysis showed the data for the thesis to be totally fabricated.
The Ph.D. was rescinded (a very rare occurence) and the thesis supervisor (and journal editors) had to bare the brunt of a very hostile scientific community.

October 27, 2003 Jim Whitford-Stark

BTW, before I get accused of being a long-haired hippie, I was a "mod" as opposed to a "rocker" in my youth.
(See Who, The, Quadrophenia, 1973)

October 27, 2003 Scott Trepel

Expertizing
Jim W-S

I don't think we disagree. The PF does very little "marketing", but it has maintained market share over the years thru the reliability of its opinions and service. PSE has earned its share of the market thru fast, reliable service at the low and mid-level price range. APEX is trying to become more widely accepted by promoting its technological "edge". Each has its own strengths and weaknesses, and the marketplace is quick to adapt, even during change.

As for the Royal, BPA and the numerous Anglo-European "experts" who operate outside of committees, my experience with them has closely paralleled the American side (without the individual experts). The Royal has always been somewhat inaccessible and "deliberate" (a nice word for slow). The BPA is relatively faster, but I must say 2 out of 10 certificates are bizarre, to say the least. For example, I submitted a few classic Canadian advertising covers I bought in auctions here. They were genuine, but the BPA certificates came back as "stamps do not belong and fake markings", a totally off the wall opinion, but I didn't have the strength to fight, so I returned them to the auctioneer. Lastly, the danger of "sole" expertisers is the potential for corruption, deterioration or bias.

I think the pursuit of market share thru innovation and improvement is perfectly healthy for expertizing groups. The last thing we want is the old Civil Service mentality of entrenchment and undeniable job security!

October 27, 2003 Jim Whitford-Stark

Scott

I have to disagree with you a little bit (at least I hope you see it that way).
An auction house probably submits maybe hundreds of stamps for certs per year.
Conversely a collector may onl submit one pre year or even one per lifetime.
They need to know in advance where they are going to get the "best value for money".
That, to many, depends on the reputation of the expertizing body.
A reputation is not earned overnight and obviously the expertise of the expertizing committees change as members die and new "stars" emerge.

The Royal has earned a good reputation firstly because of duration and secondly because they have astutely avoided getting into "a competition for the market share".
When expertizing is controlled by marketing rather than effectiveness, I think it is the consumer who suffers.

October 27, 2003 Scott Trepel <strepel@siegelauctions.com> http://www.siegelauctions.com
 

PSE
Randy S: Both you and I addressed Ken L's remarks, but I would say your posting was a bit more colorful than mine.

If we let the smoke clear and look at the basic issue, we have competition for market share among the three services: PF, PSE and APEX. The marketplace only cares about quality of service and acceptance of certificates. Ken L. can fire all of the arrows in his quiver (and you as well), but at the end of the day, stamp collectors will gravitate to the place that makes them feel secure.

October 27, 2003 David Detrich <ddetr@aol.com>

Expertizing list
Jim

Thank you for the addition breakdown of hinge categories.

On famous or unusual, I did not expect those terms to be used but more: If a famous forgery that it be identified by forger. Same with cancel.

Incidentally I don't believe in all of these myself but I have seen these advocated or offered by some.

Finally, what photo on APS-Ebay stamp marking?

 

October 27, 2003 Jim Griffith <griffith@dweeb.org> http://album.dweeb.org
 

Jim

October 27, 2003 David Detrich <ddetr@aol.com>

Nazi covers
Knud-Erik

Unless the policy has changed recently the Ebay policy is that stamps no matter how offensive are okay. But postal stationary and postal history in general bearing even the mildest whiff of Nazism is verboten. No one even accused Ebay of making sense.

David

October 27, 2003 Alison Ruttenberg

New Nazi Policy enforcement
Knud-Erik: I just fired off an email to the powers to be to try to get an explanation of what is going on. I will post again when I get some answers.

October 27, 2003 David Detrich <ddetr@aol.com>

Expertizing list
I apologize if this has been covered but my reading of this site has been greatly limited by my limited access in the late evenings when I have the time to do so. But I have seen that the topic of expertizing has taken hold. This is particularly true with the APS and Ebay policy on expertizing and the permanently marking of stamps.

In connection with that I would propose that not all individuals, in fact not all expertizing services would agree as to what should be included in the expertizing purposes. I have included a list of possible categories with stamps below. This list could probably be added to but I would suggest that all the items there are items some might consider.

What do think?

If even a major part of them are covered, how does one intelligently mark a stamp?

(Sorry, I have not included covers as these would cover much of the material for stamps but another host of complexity)

List for certification

Is the item a postal stamp (as opposed to revenue or cinderella)?
Which variety of the issue is it? (Color, perf, paper, watermark, phosphor, plate, etc)
In considering above what catalog or other source is used for possible varieties?

If the stamp has an overprint, is it legitimate?

If the stamp has a cancel is it legitimate?
Is it a postal cancel or revenue?
Is cancel unusual?

If the stamp is mint, is the gum original?
If original, has the gum been disturbed to cover hinge marks, thins etc.
Are there any flaws in gum (hinge marks, etc.)

Has the item been altered (for example, has a grill been added)?
Has the item been repaired (perfs added, thins filled, tears mended, creases ironed, etc)?

If the item is imperf, is the item one with the perfs cut off?
If the item is perf, have these been added to a fully or partially imperf item?
If the item is perf, was the item reperf for what ever reason?

Is the stamp a forgery?
If so, is it a famous forgery?
Is the stamp a counterfeit?

What is the description of the centering of the design (assuming there is a rigid definition for each category)?

Is the stamp an error or can an explanation be given such as color changing?

Does one include descriptive terms such as brilliant (or faded) color?


 

October 27, 2003 Colin Judd UK http://mysite.freeserve.com/GB_Special_Issues/
 

Colin
 

October 27, 2003 13.29 Knud-Erik Andersen http://sudeten.bizland.com/postal_history.htm
 

October 27, 2003 David Benson

Christo, I like the 2nd. one best. The 1st. one is actually addressed to OFS via CGH.
Impossible to value, est. 800sf., plus this, plus that, makes it almost 1000sf. if it sells at estimate.

Watch the bidding,

David Benson

October 27, 2003 Christo van Zyl

David B Sorry, some spelling, incomplete words. If you click on the first link, the David Feldman on-line auction page (showing a selection of current lots display). In the top righthand corner there is a box with a GO button to the left of it. Type @20413 in the box and press the GO button - it is important to use the @before the number. Thia should take you to the particular auction item. To see the other item, just type @20414. If you want to see enlarged desriptions and pics just click on the images.

October 27, 2003 anne

Off to class, Anne

October 27, 2003 David Benson

Christo, having trouble finding it,

You will be bidding against well heeled French bidders who are chasing unusual destinations. Feldman's realisations (and estimates) for top material are usually extremely high.

David B.

October 27, 2003 12:27 Dave F. (moderator)

Christo: One more thing. If you can wait a few days, I can probably let you know what the catalog says. Some of those still have quite low market value despite their relative scarcity. Note also that this is considered a "local" issue, from Fukui prefecture. Just for general information, the usual Japanese catalogs, even the specialized, do not touch revenues, unlike Scott's treatment for US issues.

October 27, 2003 12:20 Dave F. (moderator)

Bill L., Scott T., Randy S.: Welcome. You are welcome to be heard here at any time, but especially when there are points of contention that need to be addressed.

Christo: I have a Japanese revenue catalog somewhere, but not handy at the moment. That's an area where I'd like to study up, but just haven't had the time yet. (I've been accumulating revenues though.) On the other hand, David Benson's advice is good. If it is an item attractive to the Japanese collector, then it should get a fair run. One suggestion: if you offer it up, you should change the orientation of the stamp counter-clock-wise 90 degrees, so that "Silk Fabric" reads at the top.

fires in Southern California: Keep your fingers crossed. I have several friends whom I've helped to pack up. One family has had to evacuate and doesn't know whether or not they've had damage. Another is waiting for the official notice to evacuate. I am fortunately about 30 miles from the closest fire right now, but live about 4 miles from an area that does catch fire from time to time. If that were to happen, resources are so stretched right now that it could be a greater catastrophe than in the past.

Either way, my involvement here may be a bit intermittent over the next several days, as I try to both maintain my regular work and help out friends as much as possible.

October 27, 2003 Christo van Zyl

David B: You'll have to use the second option.

October 27, 2003 Christo van Zyl

France to COGH Covers
David B: About a year or more ago I mentioned on the boards that I am interested in collecting covers from France to Cape of Good Hope (for the classical period ending 1876). I have kept an eye open for some, but they appear to be as scarce as chicken teeth. This is the first one I have seen. Is in an auction by David Feldman. I have copied the page from the site, if it doesn't open, try This site, click on auctions, on next page click search lots, and on next page in keyword menu past @20414. You can also look at @20413. I'll have tothink about those!!

October 27, 2003 12:00 Randy Shoemaker <randyshoemaker@netscape.net> http://psestamp.com
 

Expertizing preferences
Rather than begin by engaging in name calling of any perticular service, I take great exception to Ken Lawrences reckless use of this forum to recant what is a long laundry list of have-truths and outright lies. Mr. Lawrence has railed against PSE for years about my 'alterego', dealer bias, reference collctions, scientific background, specific opinions, etc, ad nauseum. But, interestingly enough, He has NEVER ONCE contacted me personally, asked even one civil question, made ANY ATTEMPT at verifying the drivel he spues on the print or internet page or even come within 100 MILES of the truth! For a supposed philatelic 'writer', one has to question his motives and biases much more than mine. The shrill nature of his commentary belies the real crux of the matter. Mr. Lawrence talks about me with so many purgoritives ('deceptive', 'unscrupulous', 'splits the difference', 'allows submitters to pick the experts who examine an item', 'potential corruption', 'you aren't getting the quality opinion you desire', 'revulsion', 'live or die by the reputations of its examiners', 'doesn't maintain a reference collection for the experts use', doesn't allow independent researchers to study its work product', 'PSE has gone through several business reorganizations', suggesting we will close our doors, likening PSE certs to Steve Ivy's TWO MONTH foray into IN-HOUSE certificates, 'So it will be with todays PSE certificates a generation from now', 'PSE cuts too many corners'.

All this in just ONE POSTING on this chat board. Those of you out there may or may not know me. I have been an active professional in this business as a DEALER or expert since 1969! My reputation as a stamp dealer I proudly proffer is outstanding. All you out there ask people who have known me 30+ years and ask them if they know ONE SINGLE TIME...JUST ONE(!), that I lied, cheated, misrepresented, stole, didn't give everyone the absolute truth about any dealing I had. GO OUT THERE AND SEE FOR YOURSELF. If you listen to unfounded charges and fabrications, then that is up to you. All who know me can verify my openness, honestly and the highest regard for our chosen hobby. Nothing that Ken Lawrence can say can change the FACTS. Ok KEN, put up or SHUT UP! Your inuendo and fabrications in this industry have gone on long enough without being challenged. Here is my CHALLENGE! DIG UP EVERYTHING YOU CAN and confront me face to face, point by point. If you can't, then simply zip it up. Stick to the facts, philately or whatever but STOP the LIES and FABRICATIONS. Your bloody pulpit should be restricted to scholarly endeavors and not mindless, baseless drivel to make YOU feel good.

The ball is in the TRUTHS court!

-Randy Shoemaker

October 27, 2003 Christo van Zyl

David B: Yes, that worked to my advantage. I also used ipix in the past and it were you guys on the ebay chat board that encouraged ne to make the jump to a better picture host. The main argument being that the better scans would bring in better results during selling. So I can only recommend the virtues of having clear/good quality scans at a reasonable size allowing for fast uploading from a reliable host.

October 27, 2003 David Benson

Christo, then it serves the seller right, he should ahve had a good scan and a close up of the pair,

I think the Japanese is about 1920,

David Benson

October 27, 2003 Christo van Zyl

David B: Luckily I asked for a close-up scan. Was sent very promptly by the seller. I'll also follow your recommendation re the Japanese silk revenue. Would have been nice to have a stab at the year though.

October 27, 2003 Jim Griffith <griffith@dweeb.org> http://album.dweeb.org
 

Jim

October 27, 2003 David Benson

Christo, nice buy, most probably some bidders stayed away because of the extremely lousy scan. If he had a close up of the stamps the realisation would have been in 3 figures.

re. the Japanese Silk Revenue, haven't a clue, but there are 1000's of Japanese Ebayers, list it for $2 and wait for them to bid,

David Benson

October 27, 2003 Bill Weiss

NOMAD; Bill C is correct, you can see the watermark SOMETIMES, but not always. When it can't be seen, the only other option is to remove the stamp from the cover, check it, then reattach it - which is just what expert committees will do if necessary. APEX has done this several times for me on items I've submitted as EKUs where the watermark must be verified.

Regarding the PF and covers, one complaint I've always had about PF and even, to a certain extent, PSE, is that they tend to ignore cover faults, so your news about them mentioning a tear is good news to me. All of the expert committees are quick to identify stamp flaws on a cover but not cover flaws, which has always amazed me. While I do not advocate calling insignificant cover faults, I do believe that important faults should be identified.

October 27, 2003 Christo van Zyl

Promotheus Tiny Covers

Prom: As promised, two (maybe not so tiny) covers. If you would like them, please send me your mailing address.

First one measures 11.6 x 6.8 cm. Addressed from Utrecht (Netherlands) to Heilbron (South Africa). Inside a card with a B&W photo announcing birth of baby girl - 1948. Kind of neat the birth announcement with a bab yon stamp cover!
Tiny Cover 1
The second cover measures 9.7 x 7.4 cm. Sent from Paris (France) to Cambridge (Mass) and then redirected to Gloucester (Mass). Dated 1926. That's the problems with these tiny coversd - one tends to run out of space!!
Tiny Cover 2
 

October 27, 2003 Christo van Zyl

Japanese Revenue Stamp
Anybody on the board that can give me some info on this Japanese Silk Revenue?. Worthwhile to list on E-bay?

Thanks, Christo
 

October 27, 2003 9:50 Bill Claghorn (claghorn1p) http://www.geocities.com/claghorn1p/
 

Stamp Watermark on Cover
Nomad55 You may be able to see the watermark of the stamp by holding it up to a bright light and looking through the cover. It depends on the thickness and opacity of the paper. A red gel overlay might help filter out the stamp design to see the watermark more clearly. Good luck.

October 27, 2003 nomad55

On the subject of expertization - can any of the major committees determine the watermark of a stamp on-cover? Does the stamp have to be removed?

Reason for asking - I picked up at a local show over the weekend two covers franked with imperforate vertical coils, a line strip of 7 on a registered cover, and a paste-up strip of 4. I'd like to have them certed, but positive ID of the stamps depends on watermark.

October 27, 2003 nomad55

Brian.....I have used CSA for certs to determine whether a certain stamp was a genuine on cover use - great for my Texas confederate covers.
For the cover sent to PF, I wanted a positive confirmation on the plate variety in addtion to the on cover use. I know PF charges extra for plating, so I identified the stone and position in the original request so as to save the extra fee - basically I did the leg work for them and expected a 'yes' or 'no' answer, which is exactly what I got in return.

October 27, 2003 Christo van Zyl

Prometheus: No problem. It looks like my guesstimate was good. The 10 c bistre (on the cover beneath stamp is written 43b - so it is probably YT 43 b/Scott 42a) is valued by Scott as $70 and $110 for on cover. I'll verify whether it is report B once I have the cover in my possession. The quailty of the stamps appear to be Ok - it is a pair, with at least one having almost four margins, the other slightly cut in at top. So all in all not a bad purchase in my opinion. I will try and show you two of my miniature covers later tonight.
 

October 27, 2003 Brain R

Why did you go to the PF, instead of the CSA (or other service)?

October 27, 2003 nomad55

A positive personal experience with PF

Couple weeks back I received a good cert on an item submitted to the PF, a Confederate constant plate variety on cover. The cert noted a repaired tear in the cover (which I knew about) - seems to be a way of documenting the condition of the cover as of XXX date, which I like. In addition as an unexpected bonus, the PF included a xerox of their reference copy of the subject stamp - a nice touch!

October 27, 2003 Bill Weiss

Thank You Scott!
SCOTT T.; I appreciate that you came here and stated your opinions. I think we can have a really interesting and valuable discourse here about the pros and cons of expertizing as it pertains to the three major US committees, and so long as we can keep it rational, I believe the readers of this board can benefit from it.
I must say, speaking personally, that at one time I found the PF to be the most difficult to communicate with in terms of speaking directly to someone there who would seem willing to help you. I found Peter Robertson to be terribly stand-offish, but have now found Bill Crowe to be much more reasonable and easy to speak to.

Randy Shoemaker has always been the easiest to reach and speak to and is always willing to give of his trime to any legitimate inquiry. I have not had reason to speak directly to Mercer at APEX but he approached me some months ago in a gentlemanly effort to have me put aside my past gripes with APEX, and the end result of those efforts was that I now also expertize for APEX as well as for PSE, and frankly, I have been getting a lot more from APEX than from PSE. While there is no question that PSE does still send out most of their patients to outside experts, it's still true that Bill L. and Randy S. usually comprise two out of the three who expertize straight-forward US stuff, so in that regard, APEX is way ahead of PSE in sending more stuff out to independent experts. I can't speak for PF since I do not expertize for them, but certainly would if asked.

October 27, 2003 Scott R. Trepel <strepel@siegelauctions.com> http://www.siegelauctions.com
 

PF
Bill W. asked me to review the postings on the relative merits of PF, PSE and APEX. I read them and have the following response.

NUMBER ONE
The first thing I want to do is refute Ken L's remark that I, as one of the big auctioneers, get "preferential" treatment. With 23 years experience submitting stamps, I can assure you that I do NOT receive any form of preferential treatment. I grimace over PF opinions and wait for items as much as anyone (in fact, thru sheer volume, a lot more than most others.) Ken's comment is inaccurate, and it insults the PF employees who work hard to maintain blind justice in expertizing. I respectfully ask Ken to reconsider his remark and retract it, not for me but for the PF employees whose reputations he has tainted with the suggestion of favoritism.

NUMBER TWO
What is true is that I regard the expertizing process -- at PF, PSE, APEX, CSA, RPS or BPA (or anywhere) -- as a trial. And I do feel that certain items in which I have great faith, backed by information and experience, deserve an advocate, and in those situations I will play a more active role in the expertizing process.

Therefore, if I submit one of three recorded Goliad 10c Dark Blue provisional stamps to the PF (or any committee)-- a stamp that was called counterfeit by the CSA -- I will produce evidence to back up my opinion that it is genuine. If I win the case, it has nothing to do with "preferential" treatment and everything to do with scholarship. Bill Crowe will verify that I did just that in the case of the Goliad stamp. I secured a "genuine" PFC for a very rare, genuine stamp.

Likewise, the PF (Bill Crowe) will confirm that I have submitted items and specifically asked the PF to regard them as suspicious, even though I have a financial interest in the outcome.

NUMBER THREE
Now, speaking as a PF Board member, I can assure everyone that we are taking significant steps to improving our service. Someone here noticed an improvement during the past 2 years. There will be even more as we convert to a digital imaging system and better archiving facility. Bill Crowe, Brian Bleckwynn and Dave Petruzelli have been actively seeking opinions in specialized areas to improve the quality of opinions rendered. And we are taking careful steps to introduce new scientific equipment into the expertizing process (see P.S. below).

I have no complaint about APEX. I think APEX serves the philatelic community well. And in certain areas, I am very interested in knowing what APEX has to say. As an aside, Ken would serve APEX more effectively in this discussion by concentrating more on the good work APEX is doing and less on criticism of PSE and PF.

HOWEVER, as a professional, I have found no reason in the marketplace to change the standard for transactions. For U.S. stamps, the PF is the last word. (For foreign, it's a bit different). The point is, faced with conflicating opinions, I must have ONE expertizing service that is the final decision-maker or arbitrator. The market continues to tell me that the PF is the one it wants. Nothing Ken has said or can say changes that reality.

POSTSCRIPT
Re Science: Y. Souren published a booklet called "Philately of Tomorrow", in which he extolled the virtues of his modern scientific equipment, which he claimed would replace experts in expertizing. It is a worthwhile read and an excellent example of how wrong someone can be when they rely too heavily on equipment. Souren thoroughly vindicated the "Knapp Shift", which of course has been proven to be a fake.

The APEX is doing fine work in adapting forensic analysis for philatelic expertizing (so is PSE and the PF), but I think any scientist will agree that the observations and data derived from forensic analysis must be carefully analyzed by experienced people. There is no such thing as a "FAKE-O-METER" with green and red lights that gives us the answer.

Ken L, I urge you to refrain from firing shots at others when there is an alternative way of seeking validation. I spent a considerable part of my youth going to Grateful Dead concerts, so I have a weak spot for "hippies".

October 27, 2003 Matt Liebson

Christo: Quite alright. Being mistaken for Bill Weiss is probably not a bad thing. (Bill may not share that sentiment about me!)

October 27, 2003 prometheus

Christo -
I misread your post as Value On cover not just the stamps. My Bad .
I could have posted those.

Matt L - Thanks for the Info , another book I should get.

October 27, 2003 Christo van Zyl

Matt Liebson: I apologise for attributing your comments to Bill Weiss!

October 27, 2003 Christo van Zyl

Prometheus: First off, because I didn't have my catalogue with me, I was interested in what the stamps were cataloguing. So when I was bidding on this issue, I was be bidding on it in terms of CV for the stamps alone (I must add blindly, because I didn't get a response from the board - I will see tonight at home how far off my guesstimate was!).

Bill W is correct. Scott classic stamps issue, and some of the French catalogues (e.g. Yvert and Telliert, Ceres, Dallay) quote prices on cover. Also, as he states, that is only a guide. An example is This Cover I was interested in buying. The markings were not the same as what I am used to on these type of covers (but then I am still ery much a newbie like you). Some suggested that $ 150 is a good buy. I sniped for $279 (blind I guess, or maybe just dumb, unknowledgeable), but the guy who was the bidder must know something more. I am still hoping that someone could explain the significance of the markings(or even rare-ity) of this cover.

At the end of the day, "attractiveness" of a cover plays a big role for me (I suppose similar to why men differ in their opinion to what a nice/beautiful woman is - beauty is in the eye of the beholder).

October 27, 2003 Bill Weiss

Expertizing
Good morning everyone. Ken L. should know me well enough by now to know that my earlier post was not "ridicule". I am as seriously interested in copetent expertizing as you are, and you should know that by now and no longer assume that I am blindly promoting any one committee over any other or have any other ulterior motive. I believe that the primary reason most dealers I know want PF or PSE certs is because either A. Their clients want them or B. They sincerely believe the opinions are accurate. I don't think that either of these reasons automatically makes them an enemy of APS. It's like prferring one food over another. You don't necessarily hate the one you like less.
One way we can add to this discussion in a positive way is to invite someone like Scott Trepel over here from Frajola's board and ask him why his firm favors PF in their terms of sale. I have always assumed that it was twofold; Scott is on the PF Board I believe, thus is obviously a PF fan and second, I would assume he believes they give accurate opinions. It would be interesting to have him comment and I will send him an email now to invite him here.

October 27, 2003 Matt Liebson

That said, I think on-cover values are at best a vague guide and are often misleading, since those values don't usually account for rates, usages, postmarks, etc.

October 27, 2003 prometheus

Christo
Where would you look something like that Up, Used on cover values?
 

October 27, 2003 Christo van Zyl

Cat Value
And this is Why I wanted to know.

October 27, 2003 0613 prometheus <Prometheus@1Internetdrive.com> http://interestingcancels.mysite.freeserve.com/
 

THIS DISCUSSION IS GREAT
Please continue

Ken L - I find your posts very concise, informative and more real than some of the hedged posts I have seen ( I like olde hippies , My parents are flower children)

ON THE RULES OF COPIES To all who posted about this WHY are Not the laws enforced??

JIM W - Lavar Great Postal posts

Jim G Who would you recommend for Postal History stuff ?

Dave P I am an outsider and New , I came away with the same feeling on certs, and have NOT changed my thoughts yet.

MR MODERATOR Thanks again for this GREAT Forum !!!!!

and too the 100 or so Lurkers and Posters that looked at my fresh stuff on my site I thank you. Also to those that emailed Thoughts, ideas, opinions Thanks a lot, I still do not understand why you won't post something on the board.

CLARK The Seigel census link is neat I can't read the adverts on those covers they show , Is there a place that might list who used these stamps. ??

October 27, 2003 8:12 a.m c.d.t. John@Magnolia Stamps