StampChat Archives

Archive:  November 1 - 15, 2003

• Last updated:  20 March 2004

November 15, 2003 Roger Heath

Christo
Bavaria cancel on yellow stamp - my guess Fuerth im Bayern. I looked on the multimap web site and it lists 12 Furth, Fürth, etc in Germany.

Roger

November 15, 2003 Christo van Zyl

Great Britain (Drentford, 31/7/1924, 1-PM)

Belgium (Gand (Boucheril?), 14/9/1900, 12-13)

Bavaria (Fuerthi.Bahnhof??, 19/2/1906, 3-4N). Some help with the name will be appreciated. Must be bahn, or bahnhof??

Bavaria, millwheel cancel 28. Some more info with respect to this type of canceller would also be appreciated. What PO , what period was it used, any varieties?

Ceylon (Trincoma, 14/1/1895).
 

November 15, 2003 David Benson

Michael, does he mention he belongs to any society, if so, maybe a email to them might be a benefit as well as one to Safeharbor,

David B.

November 15, 2003 Michael Walter

Have a look at this auction!!!
 

November 15, 2003 Jim Griffith <griffith@dweeb.org> http://album.dweeb.org
 

Jim

November 15, 2003 Bill Weiss

MIKE W; Sorry to hear about your problem. Mail it when convenient for you. I will return to you promptly.

November 15, 2003 Jim "jaywild"

November 15, 2003 Michael Walter

Bill Weiss
I've been sick as a dog from working outside in the rain and wind on Friday. (My full-time business is historic restoration of colonial buildings and houses) I promise that I will mail the 5 cent ribbed paper variety sometime during the week when I feel better.

November 15, 2003 Michael Walter <harfordstamps@comcast.net>

Rob Faux "Flat Stanley"
Rob, I live in Baltimore, MD. I would be happy to do the project. If you are not interested in the U.S. I do have a sister that lives in Sweden who would probably like to do it. If interested email me.

November 15, 2003 Roger Heath

Pickin' on Bill Day
Bill -
Hawaii is so a part of the US!!! I just ask stupid questions since I've never collected US and I think you guys are nuts to give different catalogue numbers to stamps that from the conversation I've read come from the same plates. Sloppy work by those early American printers. Didn't they know how large the stamps was going to be before they engraved it and rolled the die onto the plate.
That concept went out with the "stone age" in Switzerland circa 1852. LOL

Roger, proud to be a Naturalized US Citizen living in Hawaii, formerly of the UK, and a couple of vacations in Switzerland.

November 15, 2003 Bill Weiss

JIM; You are such a sweet guy and I can't thank you enough!

November 15, 2003 Jim Griffith <griffith@dweeb.org> http://album.dweeb.org
 

Jim

November 15, 2003 Bill Weiss

Booklet Panes
OK you guys - of course I know that the AEF panes are more than 6 stamps! I was answering a question from a non-US board member and was just giving him a general overview. What he cared about was whether the single he linked to could be from a BP, so I gave a short answer.
KEN L. - you must be feeling better if you are picking on me!

November 15, 2003 Ken Lawrence <apsken@aol.com>

Bill Weiss

You meant all postage stamp U.S. booklet panes before 1962 except AEF panes and certain air mail issues.

November 15, 2003 Jim Griffith <griffith@dweeb.org> http://album.dweeb.org
 

Jim

November 15, 2003 Roger Heath

Covers
since they went to the same address about 11 1/2 years apart,
Should be 1 1/2 years apart, also of interest is the Geneva cancel on the 10 centime stamp. The "Hotel de Ville" was a small office in the City Town Hall, established primarily for the convenience of the official city government offices.

Roger

November 15, 2003 Roger Heath

Pretty Stamp, scarce covers
Paolo -
I must say that is the prettiest 1 Franc Struble I've seen. Nearly all unused Strubles have no gum. Apparently there was a "movement" many years ago to soak off the gum, as it was slowly discoloring and staining the stamps no matter how well one stored them. One point I discovered was that in using UV light to look at the backs of Strubles, one was most often looking at the fluoresence of the residual effects of the glue that had migrated into the stamp. The paper in these stamps was breaking-up from the glue which was quite thick. All unsed prices for this issue are for no gum.

To the more mundane but affordable to me were these two covers, one and two, that closed to day, as you see I won one with by less than one increment. Sitting Helvetia to Brazil are scarce (my reference says 35-50 known for the rarity factor of these) even for post-UPU covers that would normally have a 25 centimes stamp. Brazil joined UPU in 1877, these are dated 1880 and 1881, and appear to have been sent at a double printed matter rate, something over 28 grams(?). There doesn't appear to be any stamps missing, and since they went to the same address about 11 1/2 years apart, there must be a reason for this 10 centime rate. I'll work on it after I receive the covers.

Roger

 

November 15, 2003 nomad55

For Dave F, our distinguished host
Good afternoon Dave....you already have my response on APS.
Other societies whose journals I subsribe to are - American air mail, Virginia postal history, Confederate, Perfins, Philatelic exhibitors, Machine cancel.

November 15, 2003 Jim Whitford-Stark

Just finished updating my web site.
For any volcano junkies out there.
an abbreviated Atitlan
A, not much information Takachiho, Japan
And a burgdeoning Pelee, Martinique

November 15, 2003 15:38 Dave F. (moderator) <apsmembers@pacificanalytics.com>

Philatelic Memberships
At least 65 responses thus far!

I'll keep this open through Monday so that it will have run a full week and through the weekend.

- - - -

In an effort to discern something about the people who read and/or post to this board, would you please let me know of your philatelic affiliations?

I am particularly interested in knowing if you have an APS membership (and if so, your number, if you have it handy).

But I'm also interested in learning about your other philatelic memberships as well.

I will not publish any individual's information.

You can just click on the email address in this post.

Thanks in advance!

And a special thanks to those who've already responded!

 

November 15, 2003 Rob Faux <fauxr "at" mrs"dot"umn"dot"edu>

mailing for nephew
All I'll try this one more time. My nephew is in 2nd grade. His class is doing a project where they wish to mail 'Flat Stanley' round the world. The idea is that people will receive a letter with 'Flat Stanley' in it, that person is asked to send a postcard or something that tells the class about where they live. Then, they are asked to mail 'Flat Stanley' to someone else.

Since this board has people from all over the world, I am hopeful that I can get a number of you to agree to do this. I would compile a mailing list that would travel with 'Flat Stanley.' Thus far, I have one person who has said they would do this.

If you would like to do this, please email with above address.

Rob

November 15, 2003 David Benson

Paolo, I think the difference there is because of different expectations. The collectors of high class Italian States absolute perfection and even a small thin diminishes the value greatly whearas the collectors of classical Switzerland have allowed minor imperfections not to diminish the value as great,

IN OTHER WORDS, ITALIAN STATES COLLECTORS ARE TOO PICKY

David Benson

heading out now for a few hours

November 15, 2003 Paolo Bagaglia

I say this also because I have troubles to sell a Sardinia #4 mint with full original gum, well margined all around (nothing like that one that is slightly cut into) with a small defect (slight thin) in the middle reverse. catalogue value of this stamp is, according to sassone 2004, Euro 18500 (higher than the one reported for the stamp linked by Roger). Fresh -- according to mine and M. Raubaudi's perception -- with small defects (another expert examined the stamp and said he could not see the defect I mentioned); I received a ludicrous offer of Euro 300 for it, from an ------ agent, which I declined, of course.
Paolo

November 15, 2003 David Benson

Paolo, my thesaurus gives this as the definiton of repro,

Definition: duplicate. ... flimsy, imitation, likeness, look-alike, mimeo, mimic, miniature,
model, reduplication, repeat, replication, repro, reproduction



David B.

November 15, 2003 14:25 Ferd W.

US Booklets
Bill Weiss- Your mind must be trolling also for the AEF Booklets have more than 6 stamps!! FW

November 15, 2003 John Forsyth

That is a beauty, Roger......go for it :)

Catalogue's come up from time to time. Scott is US for sure, then I use Gibbons for BC. But if I were serious about another area I certainly wouldn't use either. I would use a catalogue for the area, such as Yang for HK, etc. If one knows the area then catalogue values being posted are of little note. One item is worth 3x catalogue in super gem quality and the next is 10% of catalogue because it has flaws.I don't list much but I try to say what it is, and I will list a Scott or Gibbons number because many search by the numbers.I may or may not list values.

Bill w.: I am surprised and not surprised that your WE covers often garner little interest. IMO Ebay let the stamp category get so far down before trying to act, there is inherent skepticism of anything offered now (Unless you know exactly who you are buying from). I think this will change over time as they get the deadwood out. I would hope they take a lesson from this in general, but then I doubt it. Too much penny wise and pound foolish in their mindset.

November 15, 2003 Paolo Bagaglia

Switzerland: 1 Fr, violet gray:
"Seher farbfrisch..." Very fresh colour (subjective perception, wait to get the stamp in the flesh)

"In der Mitte dünne stelle..." A thin spot in the middle (objective perception).
"Sonst normal bis Güt gerandet und in guter Erhaltung" Otherwise normal to well margined and well preserved (subjective, into at top left margin and touched on bottom left margin).
Just my opinion (be very careful with quality on this material!) -- Paolo

November 15, 2003 Guillaume van T.

Cat values vs listings
My idea of a good description always would include either a catalog price or an ENV (estimated net price) simply because I want to save the buyers as much time and work as possible, thinking they will bid quicker if they have ALL relevent info.:
Bill: If I know the seller well enough that will work just fine, but I have seen several occasions where the quoted cat value is nowhere near the actual cat value. I always check with my own catalogue.
I like descriptions like those of David, because mostly I do not have to click the link to see what the auction is about and that saves time. Personally I feel that each and every seller should list their items as they see fit, but I appreciate David's international approach very much. And as my feedback shows -245 (700)- I am a loyal customer when I am happy.

November 15, 2003 Jim Whitford-Stark

Catalog is but a guide.
SG catalog is a nice, but overpriced guide.
I'll rarely bid more than a third of Gibbons, unless it is something I really want.
I also never list catalog price.
Waste of time.
If people want stamps they can look it up.

David has his groupies who seem to be out to, in some cases, buy everything issued by BC prior to 1952.
I, occasionally, will even check out his auctions. :-Þ
I hate buying sets for a single stamp, which has become David's forte.

November 15, 2003 David Benson

Roger, what a beautiful stamp, who cares if it's got no gum,

David B.

November 15, 2003 Roger Heath

Check this for quality
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2965012428&category=25794&rd=1

I'm going out for a while, but must add that I've seen a whole bunch of Swiss stamps selling for over $1000 recently.

Roger

November 15, 2003 Dave P

I still think there can be a large element of "luck" in what an Ebay auction will bring. I sometimes track "standard" GB items over a period of time, and (even excluding poor listings) the difference between the best and worst realisation can be staggering. Not to mention the numerous times I have relisted an unsold lot, changing nothing except for lowering the start price, and seeing it going for a lot more than the original start. Can be frustrating as a seller, but it does mean as a buyer there are still bargains to be found.
As far as higher value items it is a bit of the chicken and the egg. If a few more sellers place them, then more buyers will be attracted and prices will rise. Some items always seem to get a fair price, 1d blacks and 1d black covers for example seem to find their value dependent upon condition - because there is a good base of regular buyers for them. Of course when you get a reputation like David B as a seller on Ebay you have an additional help, I would imagine that there are a lot of buyers who specifically search his items for sale on a regular basis, so less is missed.

November 15, 2003 Richard Ballhagen (spain_1850)

Better non-US items o ebay
There are rarely ever offered any decent Spanish covers on ebay, but when they are listed, they do pretty good. Here are a couple recent examples (these are NOT $500+ covers though):
Spain #1 on cover with red faded Baeza cancel - $235
Spain #1 on cover with red Baeza cancel, not as faded - $381

In each of these cases, I was figuring value to be NO MORE than $100-$125, mostly for cancel premium.

November 15, 2003 David Benson

Bill, can't make any comments about US but most good non US can realise high prices and most of the good material sells.

Brekky time,

David B.

November 15, 2003 David Benson

Bill, most of the times when I have seen catalogue value noted, it doesn't mention that the value is for a full 4 margin example, not one with 2 sides cut into which is worth a tiny fraction of catalogue value. I made a comment a few weeks ago about a well known seller (who used to frequent the other chat) regularly listing BC stamps with Revenue cancels at full catalogue value. Even though I contacted him on numerous occasions he still persisted in doing it. He is fooling no one as all collectors know the value of a fiscal cancel opposed to a postal.

David B.

November 15, 2003 Bill Weiss

DAVID B; Thank you, very helpful. The most important thing you said, to me, was that you consider the material "unusual". That's the kind of stuff I generally try to buy - especially in postal history. What I notice on eBay though, is that it's tougher IMO to sell expensive (over $150.) lots then in the "real" auction market and can't understand why that is.
I notice, for example, in the US Postal History listings, there is rarely any really GOOD covers (over $500.) and very few between $100-500. A quick look in that section will show that most covers being offered are under $50. and my conclusion therefore, is that sellers have found that there are few buyers for better covers so they don't list them on eBay. THis conclusion is consistant with my belief that serious (most) buyers don't buy on eBay, thus to offer really good material is pretty much a waste of time.
Right now I have numerous Western Express items

on, and all are stating at about 1/3 of retail or 1/3 what a knowledgeable dealer in WE would price them at, yet very few get any bids at all, and those that do are from the dealers who will price them at 3X what they pay here! It's very frustrating (to me) to try

to sell better material at fractions of retail and get little/no
bids! A waste of my time. One item I just put on today, I paid $330. in year 2000 at a public auction. I put on at $175., but will be very suprised to get a bid. My conclusion is that the serious bidders aren't on eBay. Sorry this got broken up. I hit wrong keys as I typed!

November 15, 2003 Roger Heath

Catalogue "Values" in Listings
Bill -
I'll add my two cents worth on this topic. When I've been selling off my GB collection of single stamps, I've always placed both Scott and SG in the description. Scott cat from 1999, SG Concise 1998. Sometimes the quoted values are absurdly different and only point out that one stamp is more valuable to another in the big picture. I noticed a fast switch in the late '80's when Scott "repriced" its catalogue. All of a sudden at bourses dealers were listing GB by Gibbons dollar catalogue. Then started asking 25% of the inflated price, more power to them. Slowly Scott has closed the gap, but doesn't differentiate enough fro varieties to make placing cat values in listings.

In reference to my Swiss collecting. I use 1991 Zumstein Specialized, 2000 Amateur Collector priced in dollars from GB, and 1999 Schweizer Briefmarken Katalogue. These give me some idea of how much I will bid on an auction, not the value placed in a sellers description. The year and date of cancel are critical, and many times are incorrect, which leads to highly overpriced stamps, to once in a while a bargain. The problem invariably is the catalogue number is incorrect because the stamp has been misidentified, therefore, catalogue number irrelevant. A good scan is the most important part of any auction!

Roger

November 15, 2003 David Benson

Bill, I agree that catalogue values and numbers as well as full descriptions should be used in the real world of Auctions, but Ebay is not the real world. There are 10,000's of collectors out there in every country of the world who only use 1 catalogue and who knows what that catalogue is.

David B.

November 15, 2003 David Benson

Bill,

catalogue value has little or no relevance on what an item is worth unless it is regularly offered and sold. Most of the material I put up is listed in a way that anyone should be able to know what the item is without a catalogue number or price. Most of the buyers are regular buyers and usually specialise in that area so would know what the item is and the price they are willing to pay.

Mine or your opinion of what the bidder should pay is irrelavant. Most material sells at multiples of starting price as I try to list unusual or difficult to find items, sometimes which have low catalogue value but very seldom seen.

I usually start low and see what it brings, it doesn't bother me as I not a dealer, just getting rid of the 1,000's of items I accumulated when I was Exchange Super. of the PSNSW. They all date from the 1970's and 1980's when it was almost the largest sales circuit in the world.

Luckily most buyers buy multiple lots which makes it easy for the packing department.

I very seldom list any US and when I do I always use Scott's numbers, but use specialised catalogs for most other countries and will their use catalogue numbers if I think that their might be a misunderstanding from the scan and description.

David B.
 

November 15, 2003 Bill Weiss

David Benson
DAVID; I am spending a lazy Saturday afternoon trolling around, and on Frajola's board linked onto your eBay selling site. Very nice! I do have a couple questions though, about your not ever using catalog prices in your descriptions. I have seen you mention this several times on this board as not being in the info you include. I am wondering WHY you feel this is not important enough info to include? Do you consider your buyers to know automatically what they should bid for each item - without consulting a catalog to find the price?

My idea of a good description always would include either a catalog price or an ENV (estimated net price) simply because I want to save the buyers as much time and work as possible, thinking they will bid quicker if they have ALL relevent info. You obviously disagree and I wonder why?

Second, I notice that virtually ALL of your lots are under $15. (start prices) and again, I wonder why you obviously find this to be the best for you? I do notrice that you seem to cover your lots with bids very well, and I am presuming several things; one that you have developed a good client base here on eBay and second, that you have found the cheaper items to sell easier than the more expensive?

I always try to learn and you are obviously a very successful eBay seller so I will be interested to read your comments/answers. Thanks!

November 15, 2003 David Benson

Paolo & Mauro, Gibbons started added historical comments about 20 years ago. Some of them are very obscure and extremely helpful. Unusual it wasn't mentioned in Italian catalogs.

David B.

November 15, 2003 Mauro Mowszowicz

Paolo, fun to see that SG had the information!

November 15, 2003 Paolo B.

Mauro I just saw David's post below. So, the end of 1922 it was. Stupid that I couldn't find that piece of information neither in Sassone or in Unificato.
Paolo

November 15, 2003 David Benson

Mauro, save Paolo looking it up. Covers are extremely scarce, even philatelic, used on piece are extremely difficult, mint or used without a clear cancel are always extremely suspect, too many people made forged handstamps. I even saw some with clear Rome cancels.

David B.

November 15, 2003 Paolo Bagaglia

Hi Roger, :-) De gustibus non est dispuntandum (it cannot be disputed on tastes...)

Mauro I don't know that! (...aaahhh :-)). I'd suppose somewhere in 1921 but can be wrong. Already checked in my catalogues.
Paolo

 

November 15, 2003 Mauro Mowszowicz

D2, thanks again ...
Mauro

November 15, 2003 David Benson

Mauro,

from s.g.

Italian troops were stationed in China from July 1900 and a concession was granted for thir use of unoverpinted stamps on 21 January 1901. On 20 September 1917 Italian Post offices were opened in Peking & Tientsin for which the following stamps were issued. Their use was limited to legation and consular staff and Italian troops. The Italian Offices were closed down on 31 December 1922.

David B.

November 15, 2003 Bill Weiss

US Booklet Panes
ROGER H; You are correct. All US booklet panes issued before 1962 consisted of 6 stamps in a vertical block perforated through the center and all have straightedges on the top of the selvege, the two sides and the bottom, so the item you linked to is very likely the lower left single from a booklet pane. Specialists who collect booklet panes are interested in booklets & pieces of booklets on covers, but the least desirable are booklet singles (unless they have the plate number). Most desirable, of course, are full panes, including the top tab. If you can find me any of these before 1914 I will pay you a handsome price. A few of them would be worth the cost of a modest house!

November 15, 2003 Mauro Mowszowicz

Paolo thanks for looking at it, i have another question for you, do you know when the Italian bureau in China closed?
Mauro

November 15, 2003 Paolo B.

Hi Mauro,
I agree with David, nice item!
Though, due to the type of the paper on reverse and because it was stamped on January 1918, I WOULD suspect that the cover where this piece originated from had on it all three values (2c. on 5c., 4c. on 10c. and, maybe, the scarce 6c. on 15c.), therefore it would have been a philatelic cover (still valuable, though).
Paolo

November 15, 2003 Mauro Mowszowicz

Roger H, CYE
 

November 15, 2003 Roger Heath

Mauro - Looks like that cover isn't going to arrive. That's life! Don't worry about it, sometime in the future it may arrive.

Roger
 

November 15, 2003 David Benson

Mauro, most probably cut the price down from about $300 to $50,

David B.

November 15, 2003 Mauro Mowszowicz

D2 Thanks!
I just wish to knew who was the hooligan who cuted it
Mauro

November 15, 2003 David Benson

Mauro, nice item, will get a nice price, even on piece,

David Benson

November 15, 2003 Mauro Mowszowicz

Ciao Paolo, nice to see you around again ... look THISi've found it in a shoebox full of stamps, too bad it is not on cover =(
Regards
Mauro

November 15, 2003 Matt LIebson

Roger: that could be a booklet single, yes. It could also be from the corner of a pane, I think.

November 15, 2003 Paolo B.

Towards the end of the XIXth century, when UPU stated that the denomination of the postage stamps had to appear clearly in numerals instead of with a word, they might have been foreseeing, most likely involontarily, the potential incurrence of philatelic problems like this. Here "DIECI" is 10 (besides the stamp is almost carmine) whereas "TRENTA" is 30 (and the stamp would be brown).
This said, a stamp in that condition wouldn't be worthed the start price if it really were a 30 cent.
Fortunately the seller from Germany "Will ship to United States only".

Gossip: This morning a neighbour of mine, of the military police, left for a mission in Irak. Fingers crossed.
Paolo

 

November 15, 2003 David Benson

Knud, as the APS has an arrangement with Ebay regarding cleaning up the stamp categories, it may be better if you let them handle the matter. They may be able to advise someone with a little more commonsense than anyone you will be able to come into contact with.

Write to them and ask them to help you, don't mention my name,

David Benson

November 15, 2003 Roger Heath

Vikings
Knud-Erik -
One of my most vivid memories as a young child in England was a Viking vessel sailing very slowy up the Thames River in London. It made history come alive, it looked just like this, which I saw in 1964.

A question for US collectors circa 1910. Did the US have booklets leading to stamps with two straight edges as on this card?

Roger

 

November 15, 2003 09.45 Knud-Erik Andersen

Sorry for me bat enklish - I'm only a tame Dane who once wer a Viking!! :O)

November 15, 2003 09.42 Knud-Erik Andersen

November 15, 2003 Roger Heath

Shrunken Heads
Brian -
I read the details and am very disappointed to discover another seller of merchandise qho doesn't ship to Hawaii and Alaaska. I spent a whole lot of time last night looking for a new Panasonic FAX/phone/answering machine unit I gave up. Reason: Advertised price comparisons are meaningless, without inclusion of shipping charges. I don't understand the philosophy of some companies in the mailorder business who feel they must add on huge premiums for Express shipping to Hawaii. Everything coming here is via air, and they are not even attempting to provide customers with any options. It's seems the choice is either 5-Day ground (not to Hawaii) or overnight Express (impossible to Hawaii). Second Day Air is an option buy Priority Mail is certainly a reasonable alternative.

Knud-Erik -
Had to laugh. Brian's link illustrates Ebay's major problem, too many managers must have visited the Amazon website.LOL

Roger

November 15, 2003 07.42 Knud-Erik Andersen

November 15, 2003 Brian R

hmmmm
Well, here's an Ebay auction, for a "replica" item, that is clearly not marked with indelible ink. Should we report him? As an aside, I sure hope I never encounter the "serious collectors", that the seller is appealing to in the description.

November 15, 2003 Jim Whitford-Stark

Brian
Those degrees in 30 days are a joke.
We, and most other universities, require Geology undergraduates to take a field geology class which takes 42 days on its own.

November 15, 2003 Jim "jaywild"

November 15, 2003 paul laniosz

auction today
NOIP--- off to a RASDALE auction today, i spent a day looking at the lots , not really excited about the material . mostly box lots and dealer red boxes . all the lots {75-100} looked picked over or created for the sale . there are a few collections in albums but not many ,and very few single items . after buying at SHREVERS and the JOHN ROSS material ,guess im looking for higher quality material .off to see how the auction goes, there was a lot of dealer from michigan looking at material ,even HARRY from kansas is in town ,i got to take that old guy to lunch ,since he has been a pain in the as* to my bidding activity ......paul

November 15, 2003 03:45 Jim Watson

Vouchers
Dave P.,
I think that auction is a typical situation in which someone is not reading the words. Those vouchers are only good for a service upgrade - from tourist to business class, for example. I think at least two people think they're good for tickets.

November 15, 2003 Jim Lawler

Well, It's time to get back to packing up boxes so I can move them to my new place.

Jim L.

November 15, 2003 Dave P

Weird
OK, can anyone explain the logic of this auction? I mean it seems to work, but why under stamps, and are those voucers worth $500+?

November 15, 2003 03:15 Jim Watson

There is also an update of a page on a domestic cover from Estonia 1922. There's also a matching cover going the other way.

November 15, 2003 Christo van Zyl

Tasmania (Hobart, Tasmania, 14/5/1901)

Germany (Wangenburg?, 15/02/1887, 4-5 N)

India with Postal Service overprint (Purple CDS, Calcutta -?, 25/4/25, 12:30AM)

Victoria (Melbourne, 23/6/1897)
 

November 15, 2003 Roger Heath

Lavar
Aren't those mud baths great? I used to get to Wilbur Hot Springs past Middle Town, and that is also a wonderful experience. A circa 1906 hotel that was built on the old stage route between Davis and I believe Eureka. You brought back some of the memories of the "good life" of California.

Congrats on the Supreme Brief. I can appreciate the effort that goes into one of those papers, as I wrote an answering brief addressed to the Hawaii Supreme Court after I beat the Departments of Education and Labor in Circuit Court. It's been 3 1/2 years now, and I'm still waiting. But at the same time can't wait for the results, since I believe the attorneys representing the State of Hawaii, blew it in their Appeal. A case of a team of attorneys not knowing how, and in which situations substitute teachers are hired.

Roger

November 14, 2003 Lavar Taylor

Now crawling back to the computer, but only briefly. No time for philately recently, but did get my Supreme Court brief filed. Then went up to San Fran for the California Bar Tax Section annual meeting. Then to Calistoga for a mud bath. Then to a sick bed, just now starting to feel better. Have a BIG box of stuff sitting on the floor of the stamp room, just waiting for me to get better. Includes a group of several hundred 20th century covers going from the US to Germany. Now time to rest some more so I can play with stamps later.

November 14, 2003 Michael Walter

Jim "Jaywild" and everyone else
Thank you for the links and the help today!! :>)

November 14, 2003 21:00 Dave F. (moderator) <apsmembers@pacificanalytics.com>

Catching up
Erik Dyke: A much-belated welcome! You did a great job of introducing yourself here. It's a great model of how to jump in to a place like this. Well done! I hope you all manage to meet up at the show.

Anne: Thinking of you during the latest trials that the elements send. (Also, I'm still planning PA/NY trip, which was temporarily on hold. Will let you know when details finally come together.)

philatelic membership tally: I've heard from 62 folks thus far, and still looking for more. (I hope to personally acknowledge each email over the next several days.)

November 14, 2003 Roger Heath

Technology gone wrong
Brian -
I was doing OK until we had a run of posts concerning alignment of perfs on the coil stamps. I got thoroughly confused because I recently bought a perf gauge on Ebay where the seller guaranteed it will adjust automatically to any rare stamps with apparent misalignments. I don't understand everyone else's problem, it works for me.

Roger

November 14, 2003 Brian R

My spam e-mail of the day is: "Receive a BA/BS OR a Masters, online, in only 30 days!" Jim W/S You'll be pleased to hear, that one of the options, is Geology. :o)

November 14, 2003 David Benson

Addie, are all the members manufacturers of phraudelent philatelic phantasies like you or collectors and purveyors of genuine stamps.

David B.

November 14, 2003 Jim "jaywild"

30L4 US Scott 8 type III

Michael Walter…Here is Richard Doporto’s 1c Franklin archive, which has a better picture of the 30L4, and has many elements noted, included some not in Neinken. Click on the link at left.

November 14, 2003 Roger Heath

Another non-philatelic post in the series
This is what happens when a fast plane passes you, then jams on the brakes. Disc brakes are great, low cars are better!!

Anne found a replacement for the mouse that wasn't working. It serves the dual roll of helping navigate the screen, and press out creases in her stamps at the same time. One reason for having an asbestos coat within reach at all times.

Roger

November 14, 2003 ATDINVEST

TO DAVID BENSON
David what happened I am still wating to answer my question .atdinvest

November 14, 2003 ATDINVEST

TO DAVID BENSON
Oh I forgot the club that I belong you can'nt be a member because they don't allow rats or snitches,are you any of those DAVID?atdinvest

November 14, 2003 Jim "jaywild"

Jim
 

November 14, 2003 David Benson

What happened, you got a proper perforating machine.

p.s. I haven't seen any answers to my questions yet,

David Benson

November 14, 2003 ATDINVEST

TO BENSON
You are going to see many surprises.atdinvest

November 14, 2003 David Benson

Addie,

You stated

" With no exception or discrimination to any country in particular ",

haven't seen any US lately, any reason,

David B.

November 14, 2003 David Benson

Addie,

which stamp clubs do you belong to,

David B.

November 14, 2003 Matt Liebson

speaking of junk email...

November 14, 2003 ATDINVEST

MESSAGE TO PHILATELIC COMMUNITY
We sell only forgeries,reproductions from the originals highly valuables classic stamps. Our sole business is to fulfill the necessity of the great majority in the international philatelic community for rarities that their highest prices made them with no access to the majority. That is why we assumed the challenge to achieve the goal to satisfy that necessity and we did it. With the highest quality reproduction of the most valuable stamps in the World. With no exception or discrimination to any country in particular. We are proud of our achievements and success. ATDINVEST
 

November 14, 2003 16:49 Jim Watson

Junk E-Mail
I'm not so sure that things weren't better when we had unsolicited telephone solicitors at this hour of the day!

November 14, 2003 nomad55

Jim G....I love answering those with a statement like:
"(country) has offered me 37 million. If you want to do business, you must increase your offer"

Then I block the entire domain.

November 14, 2003 Jim Griffith <griffith@dweeb.org> http://album.dweeb.org
 

Jim

November 14, 2003 Jim Griffith <griffithdweeb.org> http://album.dweeb.org
 

Jim

November 14, 2003 Jim Whitford-Stark

Jimbo

I couldn't even open it, let alone forward it to spoof@ebay.com.

On the good side, managed to pick up second hand monitor for $25 so I am now back to 56k modem though down to netscape 4.5.
This monitor only fills 3/4 of the screen but it is nice to be able to connect to scanner and camera again.
Will probably load more auctions this weekend since I just blew my paypal account at Phil Bansner's.
Also catch up on a backlist of volcano stamps sitting next to me.

November 14, 2003 Guillaume van T.

Spoof alert: eBay contest
I am getting "eBay contest" spoof mails lately. I have sent them all to SafeHarbor. These things are like a plague!

November 14, 2003 Bill Weiss

Various
Good evening everyone! PAUL - Very pleased that your wired. So am I, but why advertise?

MIKE W; IMO the 10c "First Design" is RP at left and bottom. For some strange reason, that stamp is found reperfed more often than most other stamps in that period. I have no idea why.

KNUD-ERIC; Glad to hear you are back.

November 14, 2003 Jim Watson

Suspension e-mail
Jim W-S,
And I've having trouble forwarding the subject e-mail to spoof@ebay.com. I sure wish they'd get one of these criminals convicted and sent off to jail for a few years. I don't think they do anything but shut down the service at the ISPs. Sorry performance!

November 14, 2003 Jim Whitford-Stark

Beware nasty email that purports to be from ebay entitled "suspension advertisement" from ebay customer service.
It crashes netscape and I can't read more than 8% of it, so I assume it is another spoof.
All in bold lettering

November 14, 2003 Rob Faux

Paul I You must be at the wondrous point in the year where you can do stamps full time? Or still on the clock at work?

November 14, 2003 paul laniosz

here is the first sample ever posted on a chat board of what the policy is trying to stop . it is dated dec. 16 1975 from a prison in the state of ohio and mailed to a jewish person or a jewish last name living in chicago .i had to break open the cover to show it all.JUNK MAIL IN THE U.S. MAILS .....paul

November 14, 2003 Jim Whitford-Stark

Paul
Ye olde moate with poison-tipped stakes backed by starving tigers 24/7 system?

November 14, 2003 paul laniosz

my collection
BILL ---it has a security system ,wired and hot 24/7 ......paul

November 14, 2003 Michael Walter

Fred W
Yes there is a spot at the one o'clock postion in the "O", but there is also a slight "Crack" in the ten o'clock position. I have the Neinken diagram and every thing else matches up. I scanned the stamp, but can not enlarge it enough to post here to show the tiny details. I tried scanning at 300 and 400 dpi and Image still becomes fuzzy when I blow it up to show the tiny details

November 14, 2003 Rob Faux

62b
Michael, SF is not uncommon on that stamp. Evidently, SF got a shipment of the type I 10 cent.

November 14, 2003 David Benson

And how large or small is the marking, also what is the wording on the marking. The APS web page just says, marked on reverse in indelible ink.

These questions have been asked before and no replies,

David B.

November 14, 2003 Richard Ballhagen (spain_1850)

Dave P - For that matter, how "indelible" is indelible ink? I mean, if someone really wanted to remove the stamped mark, even if on ungummed stamps, is it impossible to do? If Sperati could remove the actual stamps design and leave the cancel, then it seems like removing a small "indelible" ink mark would be no big deal to someone with the know how.

November 14, 2003 Dave P

Marking Forgeries
If a forgery has gum, and is marked on the back (even with indelible ink), what is to stop someone washing off the gum and the mark with it?
Enquiring minds (with too much time on their hands) need to know!

November 14, 2003 11:40 Ferd W.

1 cent 1851-57
Michael W. Re: 30L4 is the damage in the "O" at one o'clock ? Neinken shows damage there [ p.188 ] ! Best to ask one of the platers.FW

November 14, 2003 Michael Walter

62b reperf
Here is a scan of the back of the stamp. The bottom row of perfs also looks a little funny to me.

November 14, 2003 nomad55

Michael W....definitely San Francisco

November 14, 2003 David Benson

Michael, It only looks like the top and the left sides.

David B.

November 14, 2003 Michael Walter

Matt
It is a shame. I think the stamp has been reperforated on three if not all four sides. Still makes a nice study item.

November 14, 2003 Matt Liebson

Looks like San Francisco to me. Not sure how scarce the cancel is on the issue (probably not very), but I'd be more worried about the perfs at left, which just look horrible. I suspect reperforation.

November 14, 2003 Michael Walter

More help needed with a CDS on a 62b
This is a Scott #62b (1861 10 cent Washington) that was in the collection that I just purchased. It is a very scarce stamp. It appears to me to say "Nov 7 1861 CAL". Is this from Sanfransisco CA.?
Is the cancel scarce for the issue?
 

November 14, 2003 David Benson

Knud, welcome back. Just a problem of not having anyone with philatelic knowledge at Safeharbor.

David B.

November 14, 2003 Roger Heath

Knud-Erik Postcards
My worst fears coming true. Even the category managers aren't even on the same page, let allone the different sites.
I would say this division of responsibility would allow anyone to sell a postcard in a stamps or postal history category with no problem, just don't cross-list it in a postcard category! When is a psotcard not a postcard, when it's in a Stamps category. Problem solved!!!

Roger

November 14, 2003 nomad55

Yee-Hah!!!!
K.E. is back!

And ebay once again proves the left hand has no concept of what the right hand is doing.

Maybe the difficulty you are having is category based - seems the "thought police" are searching the stamps categories for nazi items. I've sold quite a few nazi picture postcards in the World War II German category without any problems.

November 14, 2003 08.11 Knud-Erik Andersen

November 14, 2003 08.09 Knud-Erik Andersen

November 14, 2003 Brian R

Likely this will be my last post for a while, as i'm overwhelmed with non-stamp activity, and I'll even be working Saturday (the dark side to the "make your own hours" sales).

November 14, 2003 Bill Weiss

Wisdom?
PAUL I; I question the wisdom of you posting a link showing the extent of your collection so that anyone who lurks here can see it! Why don't you just go ahead and post your address, and the easiest way to enter your home? If I were you, I might consider asking Dave to remove that link for security reasons. Just my opinion.

November 14, 2003 Victor Horadam <horadam1@airmail.net>

Paul - nice collection, bigger than the last time I saw a scan, and soooooo organized it is disgusting......

November 14, 2003 Michael Walter

Please Help
Does anyone know of a good website on the 1¢ Franklin Issue of 1851-1857, PLATE 4? I have a Scott #8 (type III). I thought this was a position 30L4. There seems to be a "crack" on the upper left portion of the "O" in postage. The diagram that I have for the position does not show this "crack". Could have this developed during the use of this plate?

November 14, 2003 paul laniosz

TREVOR ----when to wal-mart and got more mirrors . here is a better picture MY COLLECTION .....paul

November 14, 2003 Vinod

Philatelic Affiliations
The Royal Philatelic Society, London

November 14, 2003 03:49 Jim Watson

jimbo
 

November 14, 2003 Jim Lawler

Jim L.

November 14, 2003 David Benson

Knuden, any news from Ebay,

David B.
 

November 13, 2003 Jim "jaywild"

November 13, 2003 Jim "jaywild"

November 13, 2003 Anne

Good night to all and to all sweet dreams of lots of firewood, dripping tongs, and never having to take another exam (congrats Prometheus.

November 13, 2003 Roger Heath

Expensive Fake
On the other hand, a Swiss certified fake, but I think the seller is a little optomistic.

http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2964883448&category=40381

Roger

November 13, 2003 paul laniosz

everybody ?????
come on BILL ,where do i say everybody who buys and sells on e-bay , i buy and sell all the time . i said what kind of people are buying fakes and forgeries, these are not researchers or students of philately ,people are buying them to fool others and the sellers are just as bad their looking to con someone,who may think they are real . we are not talking about everybody .....is it that hard to understand me ....just for the record i purchase some early japanese fakes from alison but that was to compare to items i already had.....paul

November 13, 2003 Christo van Zyl

Transvaal/Zuid-Afrikaansche Republiek (Army Post Office, Pretoria, 25/10/1901). Used during the Anglo-Boer War, when the British occupied the Transvaal Republic. Stamps overprinted with ERI (Edwardus Rex Imperator).

Transvaal (Durban, Natal, 7 January 1912). An example of the so-called inter provincial usage of stamps in South Africa. South Africa became a Union in 1910 and consisted of the provinces of Natal, Transvaal, the Orange Free State and the Cape (of Good Hope). The first stamps of the Union were issued in 1910 (a 2 and a half penny stamp), whilst the so-called Kings Heads were issued in September 1913 only. As a result, stamps of the four provinces were valid for postage everywhere in the Union, thus the cancel of Durban on a Transvaal stamp.

Orange Free State/Oranje Frij Staat (Harrismith, ORC, 3 PM, 7 November 1901). Once again usage during the Anglo Boer War. Stamp overprinted by VRI (Victoria Regina Imperatrix). The ORC in the cancel stands for Orange River Colony. I have to go back to my history books at some stage, but it has to do with the British annexing/incorporating part of the Orange Free State into the Cape Colony, mainly to get their hands on the diamond deposits in the Kimberley Area.

Orange Free State/Oranje Frij Staat (Field Post Office, British Army Africa, B.O.??, 29/5/1900). Usage during the Anglo Boer War, in this case handled by a British Army Field Post Office. Unfortunately I cannot make out the two letters completing the top part of the cancellation.

 

November 13, 2003 Chris

Wow
Paul That is an amazing collection. I remember you saying you were at
about 250,000 stamps. So if I can keep the same production rate going, I will be there
in 36 more years. Which is one year shorter than my expected life span.
Hmm, going to have to work harder.

Chris - still slogging through Czecho

November 13, 2003 David Benson

Roger, doubt it would get a Swiss certificate,

David B.

November 13, 2003 Roger heath

No time to linger
I thought you might want to see the courage of German buyers. No pussies there, no watch-dog committees to guard the unwary, great use of private auction! As I understand the German description, it says in effect, genuine cancels (what the hey!), genuine stamps (what the hey!), not responsible for the halving. Well you can't have everything. (pun, hey!)
http://cgi6.ebay.de/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&item=2963240898

Roger

November 13, 2003 Michael Walter

Hint: look at the bottom line under the lable.
 

November 13, 2003 Bill Weiss

Con Artist
PAUL I; For you to portray everyone who buys and sells on eBay as all "trying to con each other" and for you to be obviously annoyed over APS's attempt to try to help, pretty much tells me all I need to know about you. Good night.

November 13, 2003 20:07 Dave F. (moderator)

Paul: Don't be so disingenuous. You've been perfectly clear before about your contempt for the organization. You've had your say on this. Can we just let it go? It's been peaceful today.

November 13, 2003 paul laniosz

DEFENSE OF THE A.P.S.
JIM----- my feelings are hurt...IN DEFENSE OF THE APS----- who attacked the APS...... all i said was the oranization should have something better to do. thats not a attack......going after a few low life hustlers who are trying to cheat each other ,both the buyers and sellers are trying to con each other . the seller selling something it ain t and the buyer trying to take advantage of a unknowledgeable seller,-----hey these are not widow and ophans buying stamps for investment or retirment . ...in chicago its the CON PLAYING THE CON ,go rent the movie the STING, you will understand it better .....paul

November 13, 2003 Trevor Perrons <admiralstamps--AT--sympatico--DOT--ca>

Paul's Stamps
Paul: It looks like you didn't include a few albums (far left of photo). I spent a good 30 seconds looking for the full-length mirror but gave up when I realized I was jealous. Shame on me.

November 13, 2003 paul laniosz

my collection
CHRIS ------ keep your collection going and some day it will look like mine, yes those are all stamps albums .MY COLLECTION ......paul

November 13, 2003 John

I sent you a group of 12 or so covers,I mailed them monday morning,so you should be getting them any day now..

Darn its getting cold here!Time to break out the Fried Green Tomatos.

November 13, 2003 Jim Whitford-Stark

Nomad

Aha, that explains it.
Was looking through sales begining SS.
Will try again tomorrow with faster computer.
Many thanks for keeping a look-out for me.

Paul

In defense of APS, I fear they had very little input into the 596 scam.
Had some of the posters to this board not alerted Scott as to what was happening,
I doubt if items would have been pulled.
eBay is very sensitive to the theft of images to advertise items which people do not possess.
It is a no-brainer to even the most philatelically inept eBay personel that if a representative of an auction house phones up and says someone stole my image to represent their stamp,
eBay is on it like a fly on ****.
However, where auction has not had image purloined, stamp is real but not as described correctly, then that is where APS will hopefully provide a very useful avenue to instruct the philatelically uninformed who work for eBay.

November 13, 2003 Chris

My philatelic affiliations
I belong to two stamp clubs. They are the eBay Users Stamp Club
and the Boulder Stamp club.

I have been an active stamp collector for four years and one month,
and have 24,123 different inventoried stamps in my collection.

Chris - slogging through Czechoslovakia at the moment

November 13, 2003 Chris

The Heavy Hand Of eBay
Knud-Eric wasn't the only one that felt the heavy hand today.
A bunch of the misc-fits (regulars on the Miscelaneous Board) were
NARU'ed over a charity auction. Most of them have been re-instated,
but it took personal intervention by two pinks (Katy and Kelley) to do so.

Chris - still bids, but very careful on what I do bid on

November 13, 2003 nomad55

Jim WS
Item PC-118 in Sale #58

November 13, 2003 paul laniosz <stamp12345@aol.com>

sincerly paul

November 13, 2003 Brian McInturff

Affiliates
Dave F. APS # 184486. Also a member of USPCS and CSCSS. Sorry for not getting this to you sooner.

November 13, 2003 Jim Whitford-Stark

Nomad
I looked and couldn't find it.

November 13, 2003 Bill Weiss

#613, #596
JIM G; I apologize for not understanding your post - yes indeed, they are off! Very nice to see eBay work so quickly.
KEN L; Well, thanks for the vote of confidence! I guess I've seen as many ribbed paper Continentals as anyone. What we need is if anyone finds one on a National or American Banknote stamp - which I already posted here, so forgive me.
 

November 13, 2003 Ken Lawrence

5¢ Taylor, Continental ribbed paper

When I found mine a couple of years ago, I asked both Bill Welch (whose 5¢ Taylor collection was sold recently by Matthew Bennett) and Bob Markovits (who also specializes in the issie), and both gave me the answer tha Bill Weiss posted here. It's worth a slight premium, but not much. I think the answer would be different for an example on cover; I'd consign that to Bill Weiss if I find it.

November 13, 2003 Chip G

Harding Census
Scott T:Well, its not everyday that someone can say that they eliminated more than 2% of the known copies of a stamp - and did it in a way that didn't cost anyone a cent. I guess that there are now 42 people just a wee bit happier as the know population decreases from 43 to 42 and the rarity of their possessions increased by the same amount.
Chip

November 13, 2003 nomad55

For Jim WS
Jim Mehrer's sale catalog has a Vesuvius naval ship picture postcard.

November 13, 2003 David Benson

proofreader where were you when I wanted you,

WESTERN ROUTE, Via Suez,

David Benson

November 13, 2003 David Benson

Scott Trepel,

in case you missed my reply to your enquiry about the US/Tonga combo covers,

Scott, I have 2, both to Germany, one is a 5c. which is the normal and the other is the unique 30c. Registration cover. Stan Jersey has made a note of my covers. I think that there are another 2 known inc. Stans. I have not seen any others on the market for about 10 years and I doubt if any more exist. I bought the 5c. at Richard Wolffers which is the ex. Burrus cover in about 1980 for $1000 and the 30c. I bought in the Sir Lacon Threlford sale at Harmers London in about 1975.

There is a problem where the US supply came from and it has been suggested that they derived from Samoa or possibly that coins were included in the mailbag. I doubt if the PO sold them as I have an original Post Office report for 1892 which mentions the stock and sales, it even mentions the quantity of Fijian stamps acquired to be used as provisionals until the arrival of the 1st. issue.

The US combo covers only exist pre joining the UPU in 1893 and all covers from that period are extremely scarce and only a couple known to US and most of the mail to Germany was routed via the German PO in Apia and went by ship via the Eastward route. Only covers that went across the US to Germany needed the addition of US postage. There is also a cover known (which I don't have) which is addressed to the US and required Postage Due on arrival as the stamps weren't recognised.

David Benson

November 13, 2003 Jim Griffith <griffith@dweeb.org> http://album.dweeb.org
 

Jim

November 13, 2003 Scott Trepel

Thank You
Thanks to those who alerted me to the fraudulent Ebay listings for 596 and 613.

The owner thought it was OK to put up scans that represent stamps she owns (596, 613). !!!!!

Anyway, I value everyone's alertness and help. If anyone has some real 596's and 613's for sale, please let me know.

The double entry in Harding census will be corrected (5 years later!)

November 13, 2003 Bill Weiss

The Auctions are gone?
JIM G; I don't have the foggiest idea what your talking about?

November 13, 2003 Jim Griffith <griffith@dweeb.org> http://album.dweeb.org
 

Jim

November 13, 2003 David Benson

Knuden, any news from Ebay yet.


David B.

November 13, 2003 Bill Weiss

Ribbed Paper
ROB F; I need to run, but only the Continental Banknote stamps are thus far known with ribbed paper and I have seen most values with it. The most common IMO are the 2c, 3c and 15c. Since very few folks care about such paper varieties, they can usually be bought for little or no premium over a "normal" stamp. If anyone here ever finds a ribed paper on a National or American Banknote stamp, please notify me immediately, because I will want to see it.

November 13, 2003 Bill Weiss

#613, #596
Just a quick post to say that this incident with these stamps should prove to any observer how imporetant this chatboard is to the generall overall well-being of etrade on eBay! The item was first linked by PROMETHEUS, widely discussed by several of us, last night I reported it to Scott Trepel by private email, this morning he emailed me back and came on this board as well (despite running a public auction today!), I told him (as did others) how to report the violation, and hopefully, by now, it has been reported and will be removed! All in less than 24 hours - thanks to this board. I rest my case.

November 13, 2003 Roger Heath

Modern postage
Prometheus -
The modern technology saved you from making a naughty post. One used to ****'um and *****'um! LOL
Roger

November 13, 2003 Guillaume

Inhibitions
Prometheus: Blessed are the pure, for they shall inhibit the earth?
I sure hope this is not a Freudian slip ;-)
Enjoy your life in the real post-academic world.

November 13, 2003 Roger Heath

Christo
Swiss cancels have no premium. The rate to France fdrom Switzerland during this period and on through 1865 was 40 centimes, with exceptions, none being 15 centimes. The exceptions were all variations on cross-border rates and differing distances from the common border. Paris to Lausanne was in the maximum rate distance, therefore, 40 centimes. I assume 40 Swiss centimes was equivelent to 40 French centimes, but I don't collect French stuff, so can't officially confirm French rates.

Roger

November 13, 2003 prometheus

good day
Blessed are the pure, for they shall inhibit the earth.

ONE CLASS and a couple of exams left in my Academic life.
My daughter has been shipped to Grandmother at greatgrandmothers' till Graduation

Found out today that even if I screw up on exams still get degree.
hard work payed off.
Going to meet with a rep of company that wants me. They have some ideas on how they can work around my custody thing.
Life is Good , the Beer is Cold, The weather is Perfect,

Most of you know the tune humm along with me "I Fell good
See you all in a week or so!!!

My fresh girl friend is like modern postage,


Just peel and stick. Yes I started early today. King of beers is good.

November 13, 2003 Michael Walter

Rob Faux
I have went through over 1500 (I sell on eBay) mint, unused, and used 5 cent Taylors in the last two years. I use them alot in my 19th century mixed lots. I buy Banknotes in bulk every month and this is the first one that I have come across.

November 13, 2003 Rob Faux

Ken L Thank you, I will contact Gini for a copy.
Michael W & Bill W Ribbed paper on a 5 cent Taylor really doesn't appear to be all that common at all from what I've seen (not that I have THAT much experience). I've seen it more on the 2 cent Jackson. Bill What's been your experience of ribbed paper (continentals) vs other papers - 1 in 50? Most common denominations and least common denominations to have it?

Garry McL To be a major error, there has to be some verification to get many people to 'bite.' For example, a missing color error has to have absolutely NO evidence of that color on the stamp. This is why people have suggested certification. The other thing is that EFOs are pretty tricky to price and sell. If a person like me finds/sees one, he/she will not pay much for it because it is only a curiosity. However, if you can find individuals who actively pursue such things, you may be able to get more. I'm not convinced that ebay is the best venue for moving a true error that might have more value...I could be wrong. Steve Crippe was on here earlier and may be a good person to discuss this with.

Rob

November 13, 2003 Chip G

Double Harding in the Siegel Encyclopedia
Took a look at the auction and the note below that said the the Harding listed on ebay is Siegel Census number 37. Well, It also looks alot like Siegel Census number 7. Scott T - are you double counting one item? Are they different stamps? Which one is the one in the ebay auction? Note - I see the same little horiz. mark in both of these at the lower left corner in the white area next to the perfs.
Chip

November 13, 2003 06:37 Jim Watson

Auction Complaints
Scott,
Use the link above entitled eBay guidelines for selling stamps. Go to the bottom of the page and you'll find a reporting link which is supposed to work.

November 13, 2003 Scott Trepel

596, 613
The 596 comes from our Sale 824 and is still owned by our client. It is not for sale. I assume the same for 613.

I have e-mailed the Ebay seller, but what do I do to stop the sale and notify Ebay of this fraudulent activity?

Help, please.

November 13, 2003 6:13 Garry McLaughlin <actor@gbso.net>

New Found Error
Well, I am a Newbie here so if I sound incoherent just bear with me please.
I recently found what I think could be a major error in the Scott# 2492 Pink Rose. http://www.gbso.net/actor/WhiteRose.jpg The stamp was on paper in a mission mix of 10 or 20 pounds that I bought back in Feb 2001. I carefully removed the paper and than began making contact with many of the major stamp companies and other dealer online. Why I think it could turn out to be a major error is that no one from any of these companies have ever seen on of them. One company told me if I had it authenticated it would bring between $200 and $500 at an auction, but that it would cost me $25 or more to have it authenticated. Since the reason I am trying to sell some of my stamps is I am trying to survive on a very small fixed income, so I don't have the $25 to spare. So after much thought, I offered the stamp on eBay starting price being $25, for a 10 day auction. Although many people looked at it no one bid on it. Since I am not into collecting errors I can't figure out why no one would bid on it. Do you think they are doubting my honesty or that it has been altered or what? I would be interested in selling it but I also feel like I would like to get a fair market price for it. I know there seems to be a lot of hanky panky going on in the Philatelic world, but I can asure you I am not into messing with this kind of thing. Could I please get some feed back on this please. Thank you ..... Garry ... actor@gbso.net

November 13, 2003 paul laniosz <stamp12345@aol.com>

CHICAGOPEX
ERIC and BOB----If your coming into town please give me a e-mail . would like to meet up with you both , and bob it would be good to meet up again, since st. louis ......paul

November 13, 2003 04:33 Jim Watson

Today in Postal History
Let's try that again!
The second is an airmail first flight from Germany to the United States in 1931 aboard the Do.X.

November 13, 2003 04:31 Jim Watson

The second is an airmail first flight from href=http://www.stampwhiz.com/111331.html target=_blank>Germany to the United States in 1931 aboard the Do.X.

November 13, 2003 Bob Hohertz

Chicagopex

Brian & Eric - I will have my car there - so no need to eat dubious hamburgers... Saturday lunch sounds good to me, too - though maybe Friday dinner??

November 13, 2003 Christo van Zyl

David B: I know about this Local 15c Rate cover up for auction (shows nice example of the local/Paris rate). So I agree with your assessment that the stamp did not originate on the cover we are discussing. I will look at home in my books for the rate between France and Switzerland. I have relayed to the owner that the cover is dubious, he has since come back and asked me if I would like to make an offer. The only reason I could think of making an offer is as an example of faking/forging postal history. On the one hand it is of interest, the other hand it is as you would say, probably worthless (unless of course one floats the stamp and sell it separately, and Roger tells us that the Swiss cancel is RRRRR.

November 13, 2003 David Benson

Christo, have a look at this site about a major display in London,

http://www.rpsl.org.uk/latin/france.html

It mentions a 15c. local rate within Paris. If that is correct then the 15c. has been added, most probably a damaged 40c. was replaced by a damaged but good looking 15c.

Always be wary of stamps placed at odd angles as they usually have been placed by someone trying to fit a stamp to the markings of a cover.

David Benson

November 13, 2003 Christo van Zyl

David B: I thought so as well, if one looks at the grill on the cover at the bottom left it seems that the sizes of the individual trapezoids are not equal.
Thanks also for that info on the Valparaiso cancel.
 

November 13, 2003 David Benson

Christo, I don't know the rate to Switzerland but I think the local rate was 20c. which is why the 20c. Black is the commonest value.


David B.

November 13, 2003 David Benson

Christo, there is something that looks wrong with the top left tie of the stamp to the cover. Have you had a close look to see if the ink of the cancel matches the markings on the cover.

David B.

November 13, 2003 Christo van Zyl

Sorry, try again for Cancels on the Rear
 

November 13, 2003 Christo van Zyl

Some help needed with this France_Swiss cover.
A
Close Up of the stamp and a look at the

Cancels on the Rear
. Some of the questions I have, are:

Is the stamp OK on the cover - i.e. it has not been added at a later date?
What about that NYON cancel (Roger Malolo Heath). Very nice and clear. I think the blurred one must be for Lausanne?

Is the rate correct for mail between Paris and Lausanne?
Thanks, Christo

 

November 13, 2003 0050 Clark Frazier

569-613
To sumarize: I was wrong to think that the stamps in these listings were misidentified. Apparently, the the stamps are genuine, but the scans do not appear to be. Putting it all together (with lots of help from prior posts):

The 613 can be found in the Siegel 613 Census:

Census No. 613-CAN-37
History:
PFC: 259818 “Genuine”

The 596 can also be found in the Siegel 596 Census:

Census No: 596-CAN-11
History: Isleham Coll. - RAS 5/25/1986, Lot 1268
McNall Coll. - Sup. 10/26/1992, Lot 495
RAS Sale 824 (2000 Rarities) 5/13/2000, Lot 338 - $95,000
PFC: 280012 "Genuine"
 

November 13, 2003 0020 Clark Frazier

596-613
Regarding the 596 size comparison. For many years, Scott incorrectly labeled the 596 as "coil waste". Bennett recently made the same error with a 544 in the eBay live auction. The tall perf 11 rotaries (544, 596 and 613) should be labeled "sheet waste" since they came from unperforated rotary press sheet stock, perhaps cut from ends of the rolls. The height of a 596 should match that of a 581 (perf 10 rotary sheet stamp) or a 632, the later 11 x 10 1/2 sheet stamp. A 596 should have all of the characteristics of 581 except for perforations. A 604 vertical coil would be slightly taller than that of a 596 because the coil plate was wrapped around a smaller cylinder than the plates for sheet stamps.

With respect to the size comparison I made earlier, I assumed that the seller actually scanned the stamps. However, the appearance of the scans, suggest that perhaps pictures of stamps were scanned. If so, the seller may not own the stamps. I still do not believe that the Harding is necessarily a rotary. I frequently see enough plate tone on flat plate Hardings (610) to warrent a second look. The problem goes away when a perf 10 rotary (612) is used for comparison.

November 13, 2003 Brian R

Now back to bed, to attempt re-establishing some semblance of a sleep pattern, after the flu which thankfully is abating.

November 12, 2003 Jim "jaywild"

November 12, 2003 prometheus

Thanks for the comments on those expensive stamps
I have copied and pasted and sent to the person who emailed me .

Jay wild - Nice Stamps

Michael W - More great info burned to CD thanks

NOIP Read some fantastic letters from the Big war this evening. What I thought was a pair of brothers ended up by wars end being 4. Most amazing thing the youngest brother of the group was in Papua/New Guinea at same time as my Grandfather (same APO)
and I probably have his Photo as grandpa George took photos of everyone/everything. and was smart enuf to label all the backs of his photos. Same complaints in his letter home as Grandpa's MUD,MUD,MUD Finschhafen

November 12, 2003 10:38 Dave F. (moderator)

Philatelic memberships
It's been nearly 200 messages since I posted this yesterday, so excuse the repost for those who've already seen it:

In an effort to discern something about the people who read and/or post to this board, would you please let me know of your philatelic affiliations?

I am particularly interested in knowing if you have an APS membership (and if so, your number, if you have it handy).

But I'm also interested in learning about your other philatelic memberships as well.

I will not publish any individual's information.

Thanks in advance!

And a special thanks to those who've already responded!
 

November 12, 2003 2141 Clark Frazier

596 and 613 Not a Chance
Oops!

596

November 12, 2003 2140 Clark Frazier

596 and 613 Not a Chance
Scott Trepel

596 target=_blank>596 and 613

The "613" is clearly a 610. I overlaid the scan onto the 1 cent rotary "596" and the "613" was shorter as expected.

The "596" has strange perforations, but the white background is not helpful. The side and top perforations do not appear to match, but not quite in the way expected if the stamp was an unaltered 632. The precancel is a light impression, not dark like the 596 Kansas City illustrated in a Siegel Auction.
 

November 12, 2003 Bill Langs <wlangs@aol.com> http://www.wlangs.com
 

Kenny Lawrence
Kenny,

I had hoped that my last posting was an invitaion to upgrade our dialog here. I once again extend that invitation.

Bill Langs

November 12, 2003 21:23 Eric Dyck <edyck@kc.rr.com>

Chicagopex
I'm arriving by train midafternoon on Friday the 21st, renting a car, staying at the convention hotel, and leaving by plane midafternoon Sunday the 23rd. Saturday evening I owe to my wife. Friday evening or Saturday lunch seem OK. Brian R and Bob H, send me an email and we'll take this off-line, then post the final arrangements so others can join us. Or we could start thread concerning appropriate Revenue Stamps(REA's, "fermented malt liquor") to stay on topic.

Eric

November 12, 2003 Dana Krueger

613

November 12, 2003 Dana krueger

613

November 12, 2003 David Benson

Christo,

Valparaiso, not sure of the other,

David B.

November 12, 2003 David Benson

Dana,

possibly they are scans from an Auction catalog and not lifted from a web site.

David B.

November 12, 2003 Christo van Zyl

Canada (Kelowna BC, 27/3/1933)

The next two are from Chile, although not very clear cancels, I would appreciate some help with the PO names.

Viparmiso or Valparmiso? With a 1 on either side of the name, dated 30/6/1893

In the third stamp I can only make out AG, very close to the end of the word/name – maybe Santiago?, dated 31 UIS?? 1887

Singapore (Singapore, M3, 19/5/1968, 7 pm). So obviously a machine cancel, but with the country’s name instead of a PO name. So I guess this must indicate outgoing mail (i.e. international)?
 

November 12, 2003 Scott Trepel <strepel@siegelauctions.com>

596 & 613 etc
I'm busy with sales, but noticed some posts about a 596 and 613. Could someone give me an easy route to the listings. Maybe I'm being lazy, but I can't seem to find what all y'all are talkin' about.

November 12, 2003 20:58 Dana Krueger <dkrueger at kfl dot com>

Dana
 

November 12, 2003 Brian R

Dave F--If you don't think posts about where the midwesterners drink at their expo, is topical to the board, please forward my e-mail out to the prinicpals, and well do it in private.

November 12, 2003 Michael Walter

Bill Weiss
No problem. I will email you tomorrow!! Now off to bed, hard ealry day at work tomorrow!!!

November 12, 2003 Bill Weiss

5c Taylor
MIKE W; Thanks, the reason I want to see it is to be 100% sure it's a Continental and not an American - even though the odds of it being American are thousands to one!

November 12, 2003 Bill Weiss

Anne
Just say the word and I can explain the Banknotes to you in 100 words or less!

November 12, 2003 Bill Weiss

2c Harding
Gosh, I never stopped to consider if that stamp was REAL or not! Like Brian, I just assumed it was a typical eBay "wish-it-was" listing. Now, however, I tend to believe that between that and the seller's other listing, that the images are pirated. Why in the world would anyone offer such rarities and not note the certificates that should be with them? I am going to alert Scott Trepel to the fact that the images may come from his census. Know he's busy running his auctions right now so we may not hear from him.

November 12, 2003 Michael Walter

Bill Wiess
I will scan both sides of the stamp and post tomorrow evening. If you are interested I will be more than happy to send it to you. I do want to keep this stamp for my personal collection as I like to place differant varieties in my album other than the normal ones. When people turn the pages of my album I like the look of suprise on their faces!!! I'll post the scans tomorrow evening and then email you.

November 12, 2003 Michael Walter

Anne
If you ever get into collecting U.S. let me know and I can post links on the Banknotes and Wash/Franks that make identification simple.

November 12, 2003 Bill Weiss

5c Taylor On Ribbed Paper
MIKE W; You would have no way of knowing this, but I am involved in a serious study of ribbed paper on Banknote stamps, and would like very much to see the stamp. Can you send it to me? Of course, I will gladly reimburse your postage/insurance costs. After I see it, I can give you a much better idea of the value. Ribbed paper is fairly common on some values of the Continental BNs, less common on others. Even though Scott may not list it on the 5c Taylor Continental, I don't think it would be worth much more of a premium then they assign to other ribbed papers. It's not that they aren't substantially scarcer than stamps on ordinary paper, it's that so few people really care! If you send me an email (wrw43@rcn.com) I will give you my mailing address. Thanks.

November 12, 2003 Anne

Good night to all and to all sweet dreams of US gems, Egyptian pyramids, and Greek restaurents in Chicago.

November 12, 2003 20:26 Eric Dyck

reserve is $35,000+
Notice in the title "very rear"
Hmmmm....

Brian R

Chicagopex: Suggest a time and place, and let's do it.

Eric

November 12, 2003 David Shumaker

Wait a minute, I think that guy WAS my Putnam fund manager!

November 12, 2003 Brian R

Dang! You guys are good! I hadn't taken that close of a look at that Harding, figuring the seller, was simply using ebay logic. That is, have something that "might" be rare, definately use the figure of highest catalog value. However, a close inspection reveals that the image of that stamp in the auction, is the exact one in the Siegel census book! You people should work for the SWC. This appears to be a clear case of more than seller confusion, more like seller fraud. Ebay should perminately NARU anyone caught doing this. Then again, you can't tell anything from a scan. :O)

November 12, 2003 Michael Walter

Main thing is to watch the side ornaments and bottom outer line.
 

November 12, 2003 Roger Heath

Knowledgable Collectors
David S -
From what I've read there are certain collectors who aren't that knowledgable collectors, they just hire professionals. Maybe this guy is just trying to bypass the auctioneers 15%. "Probably an artist, not a mathematician," he said craftily. );>0

Roger

November 12, 2003 David Shumaker

Kudos on the census, Scott Trepel.

November 12, 2003 Michael Walter

Brian R.
Working on the 10 cent trimmed #35 post. will post in about 20 mins.

November 12, 2003 Michael Walter

Bill Weiss
I bought an excellent U.S. collection today. I don't have time to scan it right now, but I was wondering what can you tell me about a U.S. Scott #179 printed on ribbed paper? The stamp is unused with fresh color, FVF+++ centering and NO FAULTS except for the fact that it has no gum. I don't know alot about ribbed paper other than the fact that the Continental Bank Note Co. used it and Scott does not value this item. What would the approx value be? Rare or not?

November 12, 2003 Brian R

Chicago, is an old Illini indian word, roughly translated it means "milk the conventioners" :o)

November 12, 2003 Brian R

David M
The APS is off the hook, when it come to the concessions and Chicagopex, and most likely any other place. That deplorable situation is due to the Chicgo "Expo Mafia". Unfortunately for them, there are tons of great places to have some resonably priced food and a few cold ones, near the Arlington Heights Sheraton.

November 12, 2003 David Benson

David S., he also has this one for sale,

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=678&item=2964115155

reserve is $35,000+

David B.

November 12, 2003 David Shumaker

613 Harding
I asked the seller to furnish the PF certificate 61103 that should accompany that particular copy. It is in the Siegel census. We'll see what happens.

November 12, 2003 David M. <stamphick@dospalos.org>

David

November 12, 2003 Brian R

Chicagopex 03
Whats this about a Chicagopex get together? I'm in, if you'll have me! Although I would suggest, that the gathering meet someplace for lunch, that will serve something more extensive than bar nuts. The official Chicagopex website, is already warning, that the only food at the show will be $9 hamburgers of dubious quality.

November 12, 2003 nomad55

Brian....convention souvenir, most likely handed out at the banquet as a freebie.

November 12, 2003 Brian R

November 12, 2003 1823 Eric Dyck

Bob Hohertz
Bob, I'll be at CHICAGOPEX. The wife and I are taking the train up from KC for a change of pace and a long weekend. I snuck the stampshow in on her, but bought her off with a promise of shopping and a nice dinner. This is going to cost me. We should organize a StampChat Happy Hour.

Eric

November 12, 2003 Jim "jaywild"

November 12, 2003 Jim Whitford-Stark

My last post for a while since I am cooking dinner.

Dang, you BIG CITY BOYS.

Alpine has a main post office.
The town zip code is 79830
The post offices boxes have a code 79831
The university has a code 79832
Sub post offices on 4th street and university have cancels but they keep them for certs etc.
They do not normally use them to cancel mail.
Neither does the main post office, since letters, unless local, get El Paso or Midland/Odessa cancels.
Therefore unless you live in alpine, the chances of getting Alpine cancel are low.
The chances of getting sub post offices are zero unless someone specifically asks for it.

November 12, 2003 prometheus

Bill W and Brain R
Bill W - I am not a member there , so I can't report it.
That Auction was sent to me in an email with a complaint from a person I buy material from wondering how many of those 18,000 dollar stamps i got from him -None of course (but I am trying )

Brian R - Not yet on the CSA material am only have half way thru the other(epherma) material I must sell for her before I can get that stuff. I have been working hard at it believe me. Got her more for the stuff so far then she thought could be done with it.
Looks like we will both end up happy.
 

November 12, 2003 Bill Weiss

2c Harding Stamp
PROMO; Thanks for posting that link. This stamp is one that obviously should be removed, so why don't you report it? If the guy could sell the stamp for $15,000., his "final value fee" would be

$26.81 + 1.5% of $14,000. = $200. + $26.81 = $226.81. Pretty cheap IMO, now - IF ONLY IT WAS REAL!

PS Of course, he would also have a listing fee + a reverve price fee to add to the above.

November 12, 2003 Brian R

Prometheus You're clearing out your site to make way for new stuff? Does this mean you've got your hands on that Texas CSA hoard?

November 12, 2003 Jim Whitford-Stark

Pro
Just the block, unless it has been cancelled, whereupon the entire cancel would be nice, or if it is accompanied by "real stamps" then entire cover might be nice.

November 12, 2003 Bob H.

feedback

Jim (W-S)... The remark on feedback removal was a bit overstated - what eBay says is: "eBay may give special consideration to remove feedback upon request from members if the listing ended before the member was suspended, but the feedback was left after we reinstated the member."
 

November 12, 2003 prometheus

roger h
Mai hana hou pela

November 12, 2003 808 est prometheus <Prometheus@1Internetdrive.com>

Jim G + many others
A well deserved rest I am sure, I can only imagine the traffic going to your site, my two little attempted sites have over 800 hits and I only post them every now and then.here.

ROB FAUX - it would be wonderful if not only non verbals But Tones and inflections were a part of Chats,

Brian R - That warm spot on your leg was not me.

KEN L - thanks for the response to my Board question

Jim W-s - you want pvi's ? just the block or the covers?

Matt L - Thanks for the response looked at WW2 material He brought me twice as much as I expected,
According to APO book some scarce usages ,
a couple of neat New to me markings (more than likely common)
a few Soldiers mail ,I thought they could send free (with POSTAGE DUES.)
A neat lineage of cancels from " Due West" that show the Duplex with Obliterator and then the next date a machine cancellation.

Lots of odds and ends of course and then I have not even started reading the letters.

BBL with some questions for anyone interested going to go tear down site and fill with new Material , some that almost confuse me.





 

November 12, 2003 Roger Heath

Help Wanted - Editor
You folks know what I meant in that last post, didn't you?
I re-read it and confused myself, but that's what one gets dealing with 12 year olds all day. It was hectic day and I just want to have everyone get along here without it being too loud and distracting.

Roger

November 12, 2003 Jim Whitford-Stark

Terence

Many thanks, yet again.
Our main PO has approximately 6,000 users but has two PVI machines.
I would assume perhaps PO's that only serve a clientele measured in the 100's or less than 100.
Though that will probably soon change or PO will go out of business.

John - magnoliastamps.
I sweet-talked postal clerk into putting SRSU cancel on your letter today.
It is the first, and only one I have ever sent, hold onto it.
Hopefully El Paso or Midland/Odessa will not decimate it with their cancel.

Dave F
Just realized that reason for my question yesterday was that my laptop only has 14K modem.
Don't write too fast and expect a quick reply.

November 12, 2003 Roger Heath

Ken - Re: Knud-Erik
Thanks for contacting Ebay on behalf of Knud-Erik. It would make many peoples philatelic lives easier around here if there truely was an APS contact liason person between and an Ebay representative who was authorized to correct errors, etc in a timely manner. As you have guessed the venting on this Board is primarily aimed at frustration of Ebay to do nothing (oops, very little) until recently. Still events occur such as Knud-Erik's suspension for selling Gold Medal exhibit quality items.

I appreciate changes in attitude, and as I said the other day, the issue here was never qualities of the APS. Rarely was APS mentioned, the problem was always Ebay making inconsistantly wrong decisions. Knee-jerk isn't even a close description. You would actually be surprised how many people do earn a living selling on Ebay, and this is a major issue all the time because Ebay seems to give the appearance of not caring, convinced it has a captive market, being the only major player in on-line auctions.

Roger

November 12, 2003 prometheus http://interestingcancels.mysite.freeserve.com/
 

stamp Question
any comments beside the sellers low feedback number.

18,000

What kinda fees does this incur. Lots?

November 12, 2003 Terence Hines

Rekated???
Uh, would that be "related"? Yes!

TH

 

November 12, 2003 Terence Hines

Terence Hines

November 12, 2003 Jim Whitford-Stark

Bob

You have piqued my curiosity.
What excuses can a non paying bidder use to get feedback removed from a seller who was not Naru'd at time auction concluded?
He bid, he won at a price that was acceptable and seller is willing to send.
The item is not a forgery.
Just some idiot at eBay decided auctions were against company policy.
Without knowing what the company policy was.
If, as I am sure, K-E is restored, and buyer doesn't cough up, I might go after eBay for the lost income rather than the specific idiot that terminated the auctins.

November 12, 2003 Ken Lawrence <apsken@aol.com>

Rob Faux

I don't have a copy of my K-N article at home, where I'm convalescing at present, but APRL has copies of the magazine. Send your e-mail request to gini@stamps.org or to ellen@stamps.org to request a copy.

November 12, 2003 Jim Griffith <griffith@dweeb.org> http://album.dweeb.org
 

Jim

November 12, 2003 Bob H.

feedback

You can't leave feedback while suspended - and if you leave negative after being reinstated the person you leave it for can get it removed - probably best to just e-mail them now and explain the problem. Let them off if they feel uneasy is best policy, too.

November 12, 2003 Jim Whitford-Stark

Knud-Erik
Though I have a certain measure of sympathy with the buyer when suddenly confronted with a Naru'd seller.
I would suggest that when you are reinstated, you write a letter to buyer stating that the auction terminated on the 9th, you were Naru'd on the 11th.
The deal was consumated.
In nice terms suggest that you might post feedback indicating a slow payer or an NPB.

Dang, I hate laptops, keys are too close together.

David B
OK, only 33%

November 12, 2003 Bob Hohertz http://rdhinstl at AOL
 

neutral topic

Will be at OKPEX - anybody who reads this going to be there? Would be nice to say hello. Or CHICAGOPEX the week after?

November 12, 2003 Rob Faux

I'm going to go home and play with stamps. so there. :)

Just a reminder that it's not always WHAT was said, but HOW it was said. And another reminder that is often difficult to determine intent without the benefit of nonverbals. Tolerance is a virtue.

And, ok, I may have to do some stuff at home before I play with stamps... :(

request
I do not have the recent articles for Kansas/Nebraska overprints that Ken L mentioned, but I would like copies or links to copies. Can anyone oblige?

Rob

 

November 12, 2003 Bill; Weiss

I'm Done
ANNE is right. I am finished speaking about this. Let's all grow up.

If we took out our collective venom on eBay, we might get somewhere!

November 12, 2003 David Benson

Jim, that is the one. He wasn't one the 2 that I thought of as I didn't realise he was still a member but I checked his web page and the membership is there. He has now joined a small Coin & Stamp Association. The other 2 are collectors of US not dealers.

David B.

November 12, 2003 15:41 Bjorn Munch

Knud-Eriks lost sale
I've seen a very similar cover (or was it tha same???) sell here for considerably more a year or two ago. Maybe you'd be better of selling it elsewhere?

Anyway, you have my deepest sympathy. This is sooo stupid. Would it perhaps be better if you sold your Sudetenland items on eBay Germany? If not you may just have to give up and take that particuler business elsewhere.
 

November 12, 2003 Jim Whitford-Stark

I Must come to David B's defense here.
He earlier stated that he knew of two Australian members of APS.
Later he went to write that one of them had been kicked out of ASDA.
That leaves one other APS member in Australia who David knows who knows the rules to report him.
I am sure that there are more than 2 APS members in Australia but 50% of your know members being "bad apples" isn't good advertizing
I have a pretty damned good idea who the person is since if I am correct, he has also been barred from eBay - many years ago.

November 12, 2003 David Benson

Anne, thanks,



David Benson

November 12, 2003 Anne

Bill I'm not sure whether what I just posted is a warm, positive statement (thanks btw), but at some point we gotta stop arguing and start listening to each other.

November 12, 2003 Anne, APS 191673

I'm not quite sure what the current dispute is about, other than personal style. And that's a pretty insubstantial thing to argue about.

November 12, 2003 David Benson

Bill, I am sorry if my words were misconstrued but I suggest you read KL's comments that he knows the integrity of APS members. My comment was to him is that he doesn't know the integrity of all and I gave one example. If you took this as an offence I apologise to you but I did not in anyway infer that any other members were dishonest. I can see that KL is tightly bound with the APS and that is his business but he made a broad statement that was incorrect.

I also suggest that this is not a board for slinging matches and it should be used to clean up Ebay and not to promote any society.


David B.

November 12, 2003 Brian R

.....crawls off to double up on his meds...

November 12, 2003 Ken Lawrence <apsken@aol.com>

David Benson

Do you slag every person who appears here when another member of this group asks for their participation, or is this a singular honor for me?

The words you have just put in my mouth were never written by me, here or anywhere. If my attitude is so bad, why must you accuse me of opinions I haven't ever held or uttered?

Your disparagement of APEX opinions on Pacific Islands stamps predated my appearance, so your reply to Bill Weiss is specious. Also, what you just wrote in reply to my note does not reflect the condescension that dripped from every post of yours about APEX that I read before I joined the discussion. Even if all your false allegations about me were true, they would not justify your hubristic attitude, which frankly was the reason I originally decline Bill's request.

APS protects the entire stamp community from predation, not just its members. Any person, member or not, who has evidence that any APS member (dealer or not) has violated the APS Code of Ethics is encouraged to file a formal complaint against the member. We do not discipline anyone based on news reports or on the actions of others. We scrupulously obey the rules of due process. If you have evidence that one of our members is a violator, I urge you to notify the APS Complaints Manager, Helen Bruno. She will then forward your charges and request a reply from the member, and will then seek to resolve the dispute to everyone's satisfaction. If it cannot be resolved to the satisfaction of either party, the file will be forwarded to the Board of Vice Presidents for action. In the event either party is unsatisfied with our decision, they are entitled to a review by the APS Appeals Tribunal, whose decision is final.

November 12, 2003 Bill Weiss

DAVID B; Your comment that "he should be more polite and he would then get the same in return" is your admittance that your irked by his statements, as though what you perceive to be impoliteness is justification for retaliation! I don't EVER see some board members post anything "retaliatory" in nature. Someone like ANNE posts nothing but positive, warming statements. Many other board members, even when in disagreement with a specific post, will voice their disagreement in a sensible low-toned manner. JIM G., BRIAN, DAVID F., etc, all, from time to time, are in disagreement with a post, but none EVER say anything inflamatory. Think about it.

November 12, 2003 Bill Weiss

APS
DAVID B; I am not going to try to defend Ken Lawrence, or anybody else - they don't need my help - but you have to use some common sense. This is someone whose whole life is basically involved with APS. In the forum we have here, a philatelic chatboard, I don't think any one of us who participate here depend on eBay for a living. It's a common interest we share (eBay) as well as an honorable desire to see fraudulent listings on eBay be curtailed. In the process, we all can probably get a bit too passionate, me included, but no good comes from taking pot shots at APS in general or Ken L. in particular.

Because his whole life is involved with APS and because none of ours is, I think more tolerance is needed by us. The old expression about "walking a mile in the other guy's shoes" applies here. DAVID B; I didn't "put words in your mouth", you specifically asked "how come one of it's (APS) Australian members, who proudly boasts APS membership got kicked out of the Australian SDA?" THAT was your exact question. It was YOU who was taking the cheap shot. I'll repeat, grow up.

November 12, 2003 David Benson

Bill, KL makes a whole megilla out of every minor comment and now you have done the same. I didn't say that all were crooks, I only mentioned about one and you expand it to every member.

David B.

November 12, 2003 David Benson

Bill, KL is not a regular participant, he is the only means of contact between this group and Ebay Chat with the APS. IMO he should e more polite, not insult everyone who he deems has made anti APS remarks and try to help with information regarding the Ebay/APS relationship. If he did that everyone would be more polite to him as well and could get on with cleaning up some of the crap that is being sold on Ebay and not get involved with slinging matches about who has the best magazine, has the best club and who issues the best certificates.

David B.

November 12, 2003 David Benson

Bill, don't change my words, I just asked a question, I didn't say all were bad. I have great respect for the APS all the work they have done but I didn't like KL's comments that if a person is a member then he is reputable and if not, he doesn't know.
I am not trying to run down the APS or it's work and you and KL think that I have some complaint about the APS, I don't.



David B.

November 12, 2003 Ken Lawrence <apsken@aol.com>

Dave Frick

I should have added that I'm aware I rubbed you the wrong way at some point, which has not been my intention. On the whole, I commend your restraint and even-handedness. But the longer this stuff continued against APS, the touchier I got, I think with reason.

November 12, 2003 Bill Weiss

David Benson
So Ken Lawrence says that dealers who belong to APS are of the highest integrity, which immediately results in David Benson feeling the need to bring up a single Australian dealer who is an APS member was booted out of the Australian Stamp Dealer's Assoc. See David, that's the problem. Feeling the need to rebut every little thing that someone says is not going to make that person feel like being a regular participant. To me, such quick "zaps" only prove your (or anybody's) narrow-mindedness.

So what do you gain? The fact that you know ONE Australian dealer who was kicked out, let's see, what that obviously means is that dealers who belong to APS are crooks? Yeah, that's it, they are ALL crooks! Come on David, grow up.

November 12, 2003 Knud-Erik Andersen

My suspention.
I have just recieved a mail from a buyer who back out of the sale due to my suspetion: "Hello, today I see, you are a *not registered member* in ebay. So it is not possible to finish this deal. Please giv me *not* a ebay-feedback. Thanks XXX"
The lot was:"2962118604 $203.76 Iceland; Cover to Portugal 1942 - UNDERCOVER"
Now I think I go to bed before more happends.

 

November 12, 2003 David Benson

Jim, in most cases they can be identified without a problem. The problem Addie had in the past was that were sold in imperf. sheets and now they are perforated although in almost every case with nothing like the genuine perforation size or type. Have a look at his current offerings on

http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&include=0&userid=atdinvest&sort=3&rows=25&since=-1&rd=1

You should be able to locate genuine itemns of some of them and compare then.


David B.

November 12, 2003 17:13 Jim Watson

Definition Question
David B.,
Can you reliably identify intaglio using only a scan of the stamp? I find it difficult to separate US Washington-Franklins scans between intaglio and offset without having a scan which is good enough to show the types.

Off to dinner.
 

November 12, 2003 David Benson

David, most probably the faker scanned a fake and replicated it. Absolutely useless philatelically and a waste of paper.

David B.

November 12, 2003 14:13 Dave F. (moderator)

Ken: Most of the time, I try not to dignify a cheap shot with a response. (I sometimes fail.) Otherwise, it just fans the flames. I think reasonable people can read the agenda behind certain posts or posters.

However, I thought my response yesterday about the APS' scope of services and membership was an attempt to refute speculation with some data that I was able to get quickly.

If it's not perfectly clear to everyone, I will state any potential conflict of interest fully:

- I am a member of the APS
- I value what the organization does
- I have benefited in the past and continue to benefit from its services, and expect to do so in the future
- I support the move to the new location

Even if I didn't benefit from such services, in the same way I support certain charitable organizations, I appreciate that the organization is the best thing around in the US to try to help develop and advance interest in the hobby.

No reader to this board should infer from my silence on a post or a poster that I tacitly agree with them. Believe me, I've bitten my tongue many times. Even today.

November 12, 2003 David M. <stamphick@dospalos.org`>

David

November 12, 2003 David Benson

Ken, some minor corrections. I don't think anyone said that the APS was of no interest to non US collectors, they said little interest which is a big difference.

You mentioned that APS dealer members are of the highhest integrity, how come one of it's Australian members who proudly boasts membership was booted out of the Australian Stamp Dealers Association.

Regarding certificates it is normal to accept the most accredited certificates for specific material. No one in the US is going to take any notice of any Australian certificates for US stamps and likewise for US certificates for Australian items.

David B.

November 12, 2003 David Benson

Jim, agreed, it would be impossible to tell them all. It may be possible to use Bill C's site to identify classical forgeries and if not there then to presume they are modern but that wouldn't be foolproof but most probably would be about 90% perfect.

I wouldn't call most modern forgeries skilful as they do not reprodce the original printing methods and in most cases are nothing more than a laughable copy. Anyone may as well print their own on their own color printer for a similar result.

David, Addies material is produced by scanning a single image and replicating it to every position to fill in a sheet of A4 size paper. I have never noticed an item where an impression if of more than the one position.

Are the Samoa from all the same position or do they show variants.

David B.

November 12, 2003 Ken Lawrence <apsken@aol.com>

Richard Warren

There is a big difference between honest disagreement and misrepresentation. Participating in this discussion has been distasteful for me in part because the very people who so zealously demand accurate descriptions of items offered for sale on eBay are so cavalier in making false allegations about APS. How many days has it been since Alison was declaring APS's efforts to stop stamp fraud on eBay to be illegal ("tortious") interference with her rights as a seller, then hoping to find a client on whose behalf to sue APS, supposedly for seeking to coerce sellers to purchase APEX services? After that came a flurry of allegations large and small: APS ignores its affiliates. APS knows nothing about eBay fraud. APS is of no interest to non-U.S. collectors. And so forth. All false. These have nothing whatever to do with honest differences of opinion, or robust debate of those disagreements. Mark Twain's quip about a lie circling the globe before truth can put on its shoes is apt here. So it's true that when I originally joined the chat, I took Bill Weiss's statement that people here wanted to hear from an APS representative at face value, though I stated from the start that others were more knowledgeable than I. Now chastened by experience, I believe the people whose concerns I tried to address really wanted someone to abuse. Perhaps it's indiscreet to say so, but that is my perception. It's pretty easy to distinguish debates over honest differences from this. Here, each time I have carefully answered one concern, the person whom I answered picked a new line of attack, neither expressing gratitude for the first answer nor pursuing it further as an opposing opinion.

It's also a fact I was offended before I decided to participate, after reading David Benson's dismissal of APEX opinions concerning Australian stamps as worthless. A couple of years ago, when I was working with a leading Australian dealer to root out the source of fakes that were appearing on eBay, I asked several people in Australia who could be trusted to expertize them, and each person referred me to the two experts who examine Australian and Pacific Islands material for APEX. But until this moment, I did not review that calumny, because the issue of the moment has been the APS-eBay relationship.

Dave Frick does a swell job of cajoling participants to avoid excessively disparaging remarks against individual participants, but his tolerance for cheap shots against APS seems unlimited. Perhaps I'm the only one who regards that as a double standard, but in my opinion leaving such attacks unanswered does a disservice to everyone who collects stamps, whether or not they are APS members.

November 12, 2003 13:40 Jim Watson

Definition Question
David B.,
The question is, simply put, how do you identify a skillful modern forgery having available only a scan on your computer? I agree that some can be identified but the process doesn't sound too reliable to me. What we're concerned with are the scammers not the submissive modern forgers who follow the rules. We're probably not even worried about the person who unintentionally passes an unrecognized modern forgery on.

BTW, my use of Bill C.'s site was to suggest that such a repository might be needed to identify classic forgeries. The literature is extensive.

November 12, 2003 David Moser <stamphick@dospalos.org>

David
 

November 12, 2003 David Benson

Jim, there are many proofs, essays etc. that have similar characteristics to modern computer prints and that is one of the main problems as some buyers are under the apprehension that the item's offered are some rare proof that is noted in literature. Bill's site is good but it is not complete and omissions do not mean that the idea is modern.

I don't think that is the problem with Addies material as most of it is on modern white unwatermarked paper (size A4) and line perf. Most of the material he has scanned and replicated is watermarked and other perfs. so they shouldn't fool anyone. A lot of the buyers buy the material thinking it was printed from the original plates and may help in plating the material which of course is impossible. Luckily there have not been many copycats making these replicas or Ebay would be flooded with more of them than genuine stamps.

It would be very difficult to tell the difference between older overprints and modern handstamps but that is another problem. Experts should be able to tell genuine and fake overprints.

David B.

 

November 12, 2003 12:39 Jim Watson

I recognize that most computer generated reproductions can be distinguished when you have them in hand for inspection. I don't think that applies when the only thing you have available is a 184x224 pixel image. That, I think, is the problem with using Classic and Modern to differentiate between classes of forgeries. I think we tend to identify modern forgeries as much by the source as we do by the quality of the reproduction. That doesn't sound like the discriminator we're looking for. Any suggestions?

November 12, 2003 Richard Warren

abuse?
Ken L - I think you are wearing out the term "abusive" to the point of making it meaningless. Honest disagreement is not "abuse".

November 12, 2003 12.27 Knud-Erik Andersen

November 12, 2003 Dave P

The APS is the largest philatelic organisation in the world, but it is not a Global one, and of course there are hundreds of thousands of collecters world-wide who do not have English as a first (or even second) language.

November 12, 2003 Ken Lawrence <apsken@aol.com>

Knud-Erik

APS has spoken to eBay about your problem. I hope it will help.

November 12, 2003 David Benson

Knud, what I do not understand is why all your listings were zapped and not only the Sudentenland. I checked and there are some other Sudentenland listed. It may have been for another reason (have you paid your bill).

David B.

November 12, 2003 12.05 Knud-Erik Andersen

November 12, 2003 14.02 Knud-Erik Andersen

November 12, 2003 David Benson

Ken, why is it my fault because I only know 2 members of the APS in Australia, it is not a slur on the APS, you seem to think that any negative comment about the APS is an insult to you and the APS, it isn't. There are hundreds of societies around the world, some specialised, some general, no one can belong to them all and some of them produce fine magazines like the American Philatelist but most collectors here prefer to belong to specialist societies which produce specialist magazines with articles in their own fields.


David B.

 

November 12, 2003 Bill D.

Kenny And now we know why people have little desire to join the APS. Familiarity breeds contempt.

November 12, 2003 Ken Lawrence <apsken@aol.com>

Billy Langs

Thanks for your good wishes. Thanks for your compliment on my writing. Thanks too for offering to help APEX. I shall tell Mercer Bristow to call on you whenever he needs to have a souvenir card cutout essay expertized. What other areas do you know? It seems evident here that you are weak in your knowledge of Washington-Franklin offset imperforates and Confederates.

Now let’s get serious. You and I have known each other for about 20 years. I have bought good material from you, and you have bought good material from me. You are smart enough to make a good living in the stamp business without trying to peddle bad stuff as good, but evidently don’t have enough sense to see that this is doing serious harm to your reputation, which can’t be bought back at any price.

Other wise guys who try to defend their unscrupulous actions here probably don’t have the ability to make an honest living in stamps, so scolding them is pointless. The only practical solution is to shut them down. But it will be a pity if that becomes the community’s attitude toward you. Think about it. Take the pledge. Between cleverness and honor, choose honor. You won’t regret it.

End of Rabbi Ken’s sermon.
 

November 12, 2003 Richard Ballhagen (spain_1850)

K.E. - I don't want to sound too cynical, but why do I believe that "ended@ebay.com" is actually code for "electronic trash can"?

November 12, 2003 10.56 Knud-Erik Andersen

November 12, 2003 Ken Lawrence <apsken@aol.com>

Prometheus

My understanding is that eBay disallowed frank discussion for essentially two reasons. The bad one is that it tended to undermine confidence in eBay sellers. The good one is that some posts condemned genuine material as fake, causing potentially serious losses to sellers, and inviting intentionally deceptive posts to achieve that corrupt aim.

The latter problem is what eventually brought eBay to APS, so that eBay has a mechanism to screen challenges to sellers’ descriptions, so that legitimate sellers cannot be harmed by false condemnation, but that truly questionable material can be removed until it has been properly authenticated.
 

November 12, 2003 Ken Lawrence <apsken@aol.com>

Brian R

The short answer to your question is that law enforcement authorities require evidence that is admissible in courts of law and will withstand challenges and varying interpretations. When APS and U.S. Postal Inspectors were investigating Raymond Gregor’s fakes, a couple of leading members of the Buffalo Stamp Club attempted to undermine our case by interpreting what they thought we could prove in a different light, so that Ray was portrayed as perhaps a mischievous eccentric, but essentially harmless. To do the job properly, we could not publicly defend ourselves against these vocal know-it-alls, but we persisted in gathering evidence. Eventually we were able to prove that Ray was defrauding collectors and dealers on a grand scale, and when we confronted him with our proof, he gave the authorities a written confession. Afterward, club members thanked us for a job well done, and hosted a meeting for Bob Lamb and me to speak, but until Ray signed that confession, we were subjected to the same sort of abusive insults that have characterized so many anti-APS posts on this board.

 

November 12, 2003 David Benson

Jim, it shouldn't be too difficult to discern between modern computer aided fakes and older forgeries. Most older forgeries are well known and modern technology has made it easy to replicate designs of stamps. It doesn't matter about the age of the item being copied only when it was made.

When a seller lists an item on Ebay.US he agrees that the item is not fraudulent, admitted self made fakes are fraudulent. Ebay could not tell but someone on the SWC should have enough knowledge to discern the difference,


David Benson

 

November 12, 2003 Ken Lawrence <apsken@aol.com>

Jim Griffith

You’re welcome. Obviously some vocal members of this board wish I had not expressed my opinions here. But yes, you have mischaracterized my statement. I’ll acknowledge and welcome any positive contribution by anyone, whether or not he or she is an APS member. And likewise, I’ll oppose negative ones by members and non-members alike.

You have quoted my statement concerning the eBay watch group, which has to be accountable. Whether or not collectors are members of APS, they draw benefits from the existence of APS, the oldest, largest, and most influential organization of stamp collectors and stamp dealers in the world, which has established and enforced standards of integrity on which the entire hobby thrives.

APS is accountable to that community; no other institution is. One reason I am so exasperated by the defamations posted repeatedly here is because they are thoroughly irresponsible and harmful to the hobby’s ability to eliminate fraud, yet people blithely post abuse and insults directed against APS as though there is neither importance nor consequence to circulating those falsehoods. Most of the watch group members are accountable as APS members, but some are not. I hope they are responsible citizens, but there is no way for me to verify it.

But eBay has a different standard, based on successful selling, not on APS membership. And in this deal, both sides have to choose people on whose integrity they rely. So, this compromise is what we have. I don’t like it, but I accept it. You are not required to join APS in order to buy or sell stamps on eBay, but a watch group appointed jointly by APS and eBay is empowered to oversee and question the authenticity of philatelic material, so that everyone can gain a higher degree of confidence in this marketplace.

This is not the first time such a difficult negotiation occurred. More than a decade ago, APS was approached by the U.S. Postal Service and the American Stamp Dealers Association to co-sponsor four annual stamp exhibitions. Initially USPS and ASDA tried to dictate terms that were unacceptable, so the APS Board of Directors refused to sign the agreement. After the others realized the importance and benefit of APS involvement, we hammered out a compromise that included my most important concerns, though not in the way I would have preferred. The agreement requires that booth holders at these shows must be members in good standing of either APS, ASDA, or both, and cannot have been expelled from either organization.
 

November 12, 2003 Ken Lawrence <apsken@aol.com>

Roger Heath

When I get off line, I'll see what I can do though APS channels, but as far as I know, Dan Neary is the eBay representative responsible for such decisions.

November 12, 2003 anne

Knud-Erik: You have my sympathy on your ebay suspension. As we all know, if ebay can do something idiotic, they will.

November 12, 2003 09:20 Jim Watson

What eBay Doesn't Know
Roger,
You noted two items that eBay doesn't know about. Obviously, you weren't trying to provide a comprehensive input. The list of what eBay doesn't know could go on for days. It would be much simpler to list the things they purport to know.

just my ½¢

November 12, 2003 09:15 Jim Watson

Definition Question
David B.,
You divided forgeries into three categories: postal, classic, and modern. I'd appreciate your thoughts on definitions of the differences which can be used to separate classic and modern forgeries.

I understand postal forgeries being those which were done to defraud the post office by being used to mail letters. I think that also includes the subcategory of propaganda forgeries.

I also understand that classic forgeries includes those which were made by Fournier and Sperati.However, Bloch and Earee didn't just cover forgeries by those two artists. There are also some more recent forgers than those covered by Bloch and Earee.

I also understand that modern forgeries would include those made with a computer printer and similar modern devices.

Is the only difference between the two categories the date of manufacture? That surely can't be the difference as picking a date would be just another endless debate. Is the separation by the technique, e.g. if I engraved a plate to make a copy of the Penny Black and proceeded to print it using intaglio methods, would I be making a classic forgery? Is the definition based on the subject, that is, if I forge a stamp from the 1840 to 1869 era is that a classic forgery? However, if I forge a stamp from 1955, is that a modern forgery?

In short, I think the separation between the classic and modern categories is in the eye of the beholder and probably needs careful thought before using it as a criterion for rule-making. I'd appreciate your definition so I can adequately summarize the question for the hoped-for APS-eBay discussion.

Thanks.

November 12, 2003 Roger Heath

Sudentenland Items
Ken -
You could help immensly if you have any contact with a person at Ebay to look into this. The greatest problem we have had as interested collectors is a lack of a contact person where "oversight" situation can be presented in a professonal manner. It would be HUGE, if you informed your cantact at Ebay that your award winning exhibit displayed similar material. We only have contact with an answering machine, which replys the same no matter the question. This situation is exactly the type where APS can help Ebay. There doesn't seem to be anyone at Ebay who knows history, or stamp collecting for that matter.

Roger

November 12, 2003 Ken Lawrence <apsken@aol.com>

Knud-Erik Andersen

I don't understand why you directed this question to me. My U.S. national gold and FIP large vermeil exhibit (subject of a 48-page article in the last German Postal Specialist) is The Nazi Scourge: Postal Evidence of the Holocaust and the Devastation of Europe. Much of the material in it, including covers that document the Sudeten crisis and conquest, bear swastikas.

I'm in no way responsible for eBay, but I have bought a few covers for my exhibit on eBay, including some with swastikas.

As an elected leader of APS, my interest, which I very reluctantly (probably mistakenly) agreed to discuss here, concerns the agreement between APS and eBay (negotiated and adopted before I was an APS officer) to eliminate fraudulent sales. I'm sure eBay has many other policies that I don't know about, and probably policies that vary from one country to another in order to comply with the differing laws and customs of different countries.

November 12, 2003 Richard Ballhagen (spain_1850)

knud - Sorry to see that you have been victimized by ebays infnite stupidity. On the whole, it's very frustrating to see individuals remaining on ebay to peddle junk that is detrimental to the hobby in general, no matter how many times they get turned in for multiple selling violations. Then, responsible sellers such as yourself offering correctly described, philatelically pertinent items, get pushed around and suspended. I'd like to think that in the end all will turn out right, the good guys will win and the bad guys will lose, but I haven't seen much that builds my confidence in this.

November 12, 2003 ?

Michael Morkin MD
2003 cv $28.10 for mnh and $10.55 for used

November 12, 2003 07:58 Bill Claghorn (claghorn1p) http://www.geocities.com/claghorn1p/
 

Picture of Perforation machines
Here is a Picture of Perforation machines

November 12, 2003 07.57 Knud-Erik Andersen

November 12, 2003 Ken Lawrence <apsken@aol.com>

APS Membership Privileges

Privileges of membership are not limited to U.S. residents. Most stamp dealers around the world who wish to enjoy a reputation for integrity join APS and advertise their membership. Likewise, almost every stamp dealer will, in full confidence, send thousands of dollars worth of stamps on approval to any APS member in good standing.

Many, perhaps most, leaders of the International Philatelic Federation (FIP), and FIP-accredited judges, are APS members.

Members of APS around the world borrow books, periodicals, monographs, auction catalogs, and other references from the American Philatelic Research Library; obtain APS stamp insurance; buy and sell stamps through the APS Sales Division and on-line Stampstore; serve on and chair APS committees; run for elected office; publish articles in the American Philatelist; and enjoy all the other benefits of membership.

Russell Case, a Florida stamp dealer who once headed the Germany Philatelic Society's Expert Committee, was expelled from APS in 1996 for violating the Society's Code of Ethics. Case's lawsuit against APS, which seeks to restore his membership, asserts that his former customers and colleagues in both Germany and North America will not deal with him unless APS readmits him to membership.
 

November 12, 2003 Charles L. Williams <cwilliam@joplin.com>

Eric Dyck
Keep your Boulevard, although I love Westport. Give me a nice cold refreshing Budweiser. Chiefs Rule the world! (or will). I'm a season ticket holder - get to sit in the sun every home game 20 rows up on the 40 yard line behind the visiting bench. You can always pick me out of the crowd - I'm the one in red with a beer. Good to hear from a fellow midwesterner - even though you are a flatlander. I'm an infrequent poster but have been around for a few years. Collect Germany and Area, mostly Inflation. See ya!

November 12, 2003 Ken Lawrence

Kans. and Nebr. overprints

Several months ago Scott Stamp Monthly published my lengthy article on how to identify fake Kans. and Nebr. overprints, and the dismal result of checking just one dealer’s stock of used K-Ns. For submissions of U.S. material to the APS Sales Division, I would rate the problem of fake K-Ns right behind the problem of fake flat-plate coils, 519s, and coil waste. (Examiners remove these fakes from sales circuit books, and submitters are fined accordingly.)

In the past, unused K-Ns could be regarded as genuine if their gum breaker and ridge characteristics matched the genuine. That is no longer the case, because both Joe Puleo and Philip Small have applied their respective fake overprints to genuine Scott 632-642 stamps with the correct gum traits. Their fakes are too recent to be included in the Martin Armstrong and James De Voss booklets, so my SSM article and an earlier one in Linn’s are the only published descriptions.

APEX has examples of the various styles of K-N fake overprints in the APS reference collection of forgeries.
 

November 12, 2003 Ken Lawrence <apsken@aol.com>

What APS Members Collect

The highest national recognition for excellence in exhibiting is the APS Champion of Champions award, presented annually to the best exhibit that has won a national level grand (best in show) award during the previous year at one of more than 30 accredited World Series of Philately exhibitions. All the grand award winners compete for this honor at APS Stampshow, our annual convention in August.

The CofC has been awarded every year since 1968. Of the winners, 16 were exhibits of United States stamps or postal history, including Confederate States in this tally, and 19 were exhibits of other countries. At least three of the winning exhibitors are not citizens or residents of the United States.

All this information can be found at the APS website www.stamps.org
 

November 12, 2003 Ken Lawrence <apsken@aol.com>

David Shumaker

I think you are imputing intention that did not exist, except perhaps in the sense that most equipment design would intentionally be as simple as possible, usually achieved by repeated, symmetrical parts to achieve parallel results.

Flat-plate sheet stamps and manually assembled coils were perforated on tables that had rows of perforating wheels, plus a rotary blade at the center. Full sheets were fed into the equipment in one direction, with the central guide line aimed at the rotary blade. A second pass of the once-perfed half-sheets in the opposite dimension completed the process. Each pin on each rotating wheel had to engage precisely a round hole in a rotating wheel opposite, all of which were wearing constantly, as were the set screws that held them in place, and the flats on the drive shafts on which they were mounted.

Of necessity, each matched pair of perforating wheels had to be adjustable laterally, not only to fit different stamp formats, but sometimes just to compensate for variations in paper shrinkage. But to avoid frequent jams and breaks, some play would have been needed in the rotary direction as well, probably mostly on the receptacle wheel. Under this system, holes are elongated along the linear direction of the perforation rows, but irregularly from one hole to the next as the elongations are enhanced by the leading and trailing puffs of flared fiber.

One consequence is that these irregularities, augmented by eccentricity in stripping early gauge 12 coils, make it appear that the rows of holes are not aligned, especially where they adjoin the perpendicular straight edges. But when the giant leap was taken to gauge 8-1/2 perforations, these irregularities diminish considerably or disappear. (See below.) My anecdotal experience agrees with Clark Frazier’s report; crisply punched holes from fresh sets of pins usually seem also to be in closer cross-row alignment, but I have not studied this in detail. (If your Scott 461 really has random hole alignment, you might want to consider having its certificate reviewed.) Also, because of dimensional differences, perf wheel spacings had to be reset for coil and sheet waste processing, so you would logically expect them to remain more tightly aligned on what would have been small processing runs.

Rotary press coil stamps were perfed differently. Pins were aligned in a straight row across the width of a revolving drum or bar, causing elongation perpendicular to the perf row, with the perfectly parallel row-to-row alignment visually exaggerated by that elongation. According to Louis Repeta’s monograph on the Stickney rotary press, the first model included an in-line perforator, which would have had the same characteristics. But optimal running speeds for printing and perforating did not agree, so the off-line perforator remained in use until the Huck coiling equipment was built in the 1950s.

You have caught me in midpassage of this study, so here I’m speculating without proof, and I might be wrong: I believe that the gauge 8-1/2 perforations introduced in 1910 were probably applied by the drum/bar perforator, after gauge 12 perforations had proved too frail to avoid premature separation on the Auto-Wound coil equipment. I’m virtually certain that all gauge 10 coils were perforated this way, and not on the rotating wheel perforating tables.

Introduction of the large Stickney rotary press for sheet stamp production brought yet a different perforator, which combined the cross-web bar perforator with the rotary wheel system to apply perforations continually along the web.
 

November 12, 2003 Matthew Liebson

Prometheus: there are a lot of WW2 correspondences on the market. They are not hard to find, but have value from a historical and social perspective. I presume they have the original contents, etc. Between soldiers is a bit more interesting, especially if they were overseas rather than at US bases. WWII postal history is collectible, and there are some scarce APO numbers, but the prices generally seem low (there is a big auction of WWII postal history in connection with the current issue of La Posta, by the way).
 

November 12, 2003 prometheus

good day to all
Thanks for all scans and Links of things to see.

?NOIP While I realize that most modern mail has little if any value, i know there are exceptions, Have been offered 500 letters all WW2 two brothers in US army to each other, and a few from /to home, majority 90% back and forth to each other.
Should I pass or make a small offer for this type material?

November 12, 2003 Jim Whitford-Stark

Bill C

A bloody good idea.

November 12, 2003 05:56 Bill Claghorn (claghorn1p) http://www.geocities.com/claghorn1p/
 

You may wnat to put something like this at the start of each listing.

November 12, 2003 paul laniosz <stamp12345@aol.com>

STORY
ANNE----enjoyed your story with my morning coffee, thanks-----paul

November 12, 2003 Michael Walter

Brian R. / 10 cent issues
I'll be tied up at work for a while. If not tonight, then before Friday I'll create a post on how to tell the trimmed #35s.

November 12, 2003 3.00a Michael Morkin MD <hobbes9324 at aol dot com>

Romanian hotel set
Hi all....I remember reading (in Linn's, I think), that the Romanian hotel set Sc# 3664-84 was grossly overvalued in the catalog, and has been revalued recently. The most recent catalog I have is from 2001 - when the set listed at $51.00 - could someone take a look in their current Scott and drop me a note, or post here, the new CV?

Thanks!!

M Morkin MD

November 12, 2003 03:28 Jim Watson

Knud-Erik,Sorry to hear of your eBay problems. I think you've run into the bureaucracy of an organization which has difficulties implementing nuanced rules. They have many, many people who respond to the complaints with little or no background in the rules let alone the items they are dealing with. It's optimistic to expect eBay weenies to be able to distinguish between acceptable and unacceptable swastikas. I wish I could help but the limited contacts I once had are long since broken. And, despite Bill C. remembrance, I was never listened to very much in eBay-land and then they were only a 100 people or so.

November 12, 2003 Jim Lawler

Jim L.

p.s.
I've been and will be a less frequent poster,lurker for the next month or so. I'm up "to my eyeballs" in packing and moving. Hopefully I'll have everything "there" in a month. Then I'll get to "settle in."

November 12, 2003 Dave P

Knud-Eric
Commiserations. Ebay do not act by themselves on these things, someone must have complained, wouldn't it be nice to know who. Someone with a personal grudge, or just a general trouble-maker I would suspect.
I find it strange that Ebay can act so swiftly (and wrongly) here, yet allow crooked sellers (and I am not just talking stamps here) to continue for months before taking action.

November 12, 2003 02:59 Bill Claghorn (claghorn1p) http://www.geocities.com/claghorn1p/
 

What happend to you was that an over zealous propeller head exceeded his authority when there was a lack of adult supervision. In the past, senior officer members of EUSC, such as Jimbo, were able to intercede. Since you already have assurances from eBay, please be patient and make your case and hopefully eBay will improve their training of censors in the field. We are withj you.

November 12, 2003 Marius

Knud-Erik
I can't believe they did that to you Knud-Erik. That lot at ebay are toerags (been watching too much British TV lately). I'd be getting on the blower to them direct. The left hand has no idea what the right hand is doing and at the moment they are both wanking themselves.

November 12, 2003 Marius

APS
Having a read through the last couple of days posts re APS. It sounds like a fine institution however prior to getting on line about 6 years ago I hadn't really heard of it and I don't know anyone here in Australia who is a member, collectors that is, although I think some dealers here may be members. No doubt most other countries would have their own home grown societies but collecting US is not popular here. A good opportunity for US based sellers to canvas our auction houses as I am sure the prices for US material would be a lot cheaper here due to lower demand.

November 12, 2003 Roger Heath

Knud-Erik
I think it was the Monaco Roosevelt Proofs. He is much too liberal for the current political climate. );>)

Roger

November 11, 2003 Phil Quirk <philip.quirk at btnoopenspamworld dotcom>

Postmarks of day
Christo, I belive the 16 in the Elizabethville cancel refers to the time (24 hr clock).

Knud-Erik, Sorry to hear your news. Do you have anything in writing / email from Dan Neary to support your case?

Phil

November 11, 2003 David Benson

Knud, presumably the quantity of Sudentenland with a Swastika overprint.

David B.

November 11, 2003 David Benson

Knud, you seem to be having a lot of problems lately, do you know the reason for the suspension.

David B.

November 11, 2003 22.34 Knud-Erik Andersen

November 11, 2003 anne the depraved collector

Paul: Hey, I enjoy your stories---much of the lure of stamp collecting has to do with history, be it personal or otherwise.

November 11, 2003 anne <abt1950 at formerly time-warner>

Good night to all and to all sweet dreams of sound proof closet doors, stamp invasions, and enough space left in the guest room for the guests.

November 11, 2003 paul laniosz <stamp12345@aol.com>

different subjects
to-JIM GRIFFITH----- i read with interest your posting about the need for discussions about various venues---- from my experience on the e-bay chat room--there is very little interest from other readers if you discuss a stamp show or a auction you attended such as what got high bids or what attrached the most attention,if you ask someone about a far off show what it was like you will get a very short answer if any respond, also other readers don t discuss news events which show up in the philatelic press,i even try to entertaint readers with stories from my collecting ,but got responds that the story was made up ....so all i can say is to stick to safe subjects to get respondes from others here like your health ,vacations and always but always add something about fakes and forgeries .....paul

November 11, 2003 C Turner

Bill W... 2369
Bill,

Thanks for your comments, this is a great site!

What would you think about scanning the stamp at about 7200 dpi? The one in the link is only 600.

What do you mean by "All provide free applications"?

-Charles

November 11, 2003 Christo van Zyl

France (France, 38 Grenoble R. P., 17H15, 6/12/1997)

Belgium (Gand (Central), 7-S, 5/12/1891). Railway stamp with hexagonal railway cancel. Gand now Ghent. The 7-S indicates the direction travelled, in this case south. What does the 7 indicate – the line?

Belgian Congo (Elisabethville, 12/3/1926). What does the 16 after the year mean? The cancelling device/cashier/clerk number?
 

November 11, 2003 Bill Weiss

Color Error
CHARLES T; I do expertization of modern errors for PSE, so maybe I can help. It is difficult to tell from the scan if you truly have a "color omitted" error. Do you own a good magnifying glass? I recommend 15x. Anything stronger gives too small of a viewing field. If you have such a glass, you can usually see the dots of color on any stamp design clearly enough to make a pretty good determination if the color is rally omitted. Look first (with the glass) at the brown dots on the "normal copy" then go to the other copy and look in the same exact areas. You should be able to tell if the brown dots are 100% omitted or not. If they DO seem to be 100% omitted, then you can either consider taking the stamp to the next decent-size show you attend to show to a leading error dealer, like Steve Crippe or Bill Langs, either of who I am sure would be glad to look at your stamp and give you an informal opinion, OR you can have the stamp expertized. Any of the three major expert committees can do it for you. All provide free applications. Good luck.

November 11, 2003 Brian R

Does anybody know of a concise site, where the issue of trimmed #35's being sold as #15's, is displayed?

November 11, 2003 C Turner

Steve C RE: 2369
Steve,

Thanks for the reply. I was thinking that the brown was omitted. Look at the shadow of the snow skier.

-Charles

November 11, 2003 7:28 pm Steve Crippe <stamp@stevecrippe.com> http://www.stevecrippe.com
 

U.S. Scott 2369 Color error?
C Turner,
Your 2369 appears to be 'Red Underinked'. Not worth a Cert, as traces [or more], of Red are visible in the scan.

Worth around $20 Retail, in the EFO world.

I have over 2,000 US Error's and Freaks with scans and descriptions on my website. http://www.stevecrippe.com
 

November 11, 2003 Rob Faux

Eric Happy to see that you felt like you could post on the board! I agree with Jim, it is nice to see someone start us off with a short intro so we can start a pleasant conversation and get an idea what a person collects or is interested in.

For those who don't know me (or who may care). I am an APS member, somewhere in my 30's, married to my lovely bride, teach computer science at a U, collect & exhibit 24 cent US 1861 issue postal history, but also collect classic worldwide - and maybe other stuff that seems fun on a 'if it's cheap and cool' basis.

Charles T I'm not sure whether there are known errors of color for that issue - but I do know that color may change due to light exposure. In fact, a post office near where I lived exhibited a few sheets of stamps under glass in a flourescent lit room. The colors of those stamps ended up being very different from the issued. So, perhaps it is an error, perhaps it is a color changeling. someone with more knowledge of modern issues may be able to help.

Rob

November 11, 2003 Michael Walter

C. Turner
I do not specialize in the more modern U.S. issues. I do not think that your stamp is an error. (I could be wrong) I did a quick internet search on different auction sites. I did notice a lot of slight color variations (darker/lighter) that matched yours. This could also be because of different scanners the sellers used. I also checked my Scott 2004 specialized and nothing is mentioned. Does anyone else have any opinions?
 

November 11, 2003 David Shumaker

Looks to me like all the colors are present, but the red is faint. Could be what is called "ink starvation," could be the red was diluted with solvent, or it could be faded by sunlight. I doubt that the cost of a certificate could be recouped even if a legitimate freak, but I don't know much about EFO market.

November 11, 2003 Rob Faux

Jim G I hear what you are saying re: topics in a publication. But, I think the other side is that publications for hobbies do need to remember that there are always new entrants & part of the publication should be dedicated to maintaining visibility of 'old' information. And, in fact, I see evidence of that in most publications to some extent.

The big thing I appreciate hearing is that others believe that membership in a group for the sake of promoting a positive in the hobby is worth the time, effort and money. I tend to skim the APS rag and occasionally read. I have used the library a few times & APEX a few times. But, I do view it as a venue to attempt to support the hobby.

I am currently a 'mentor' on their mentor list. Haven't ended up doing much for it, but I'm happy to do my best. I also suspect that there are others who have much more experience and who would be better mentors than I... speaking of which, I need to get in contact with a mentee! :)

Rob

 

November 11, 2003 19:15 Eric Dyck <edyck@kc.rr.com>

prometheus
My UN is almost complete, MNH, filling all the holes in the Scott green Specialty Albums. But if you, or anyone else on the list, have a line on the UN Interim Administration in Kosovo stamps, I’d be very interested. Debbie Gitner, at Henry Gitner, has been looking for me (and others, I’m sure) but hasn’t been able to find any to purchase as yet.

My sister-in-law loves Peter Max, if you have any of the stamps that he designed for the UN, or other countries, used or mint, let me know.

NOIP

BTW, Debbie has been very helpful to me in building my collection since I signed up for Gitner’s monthly subscription service. I send them a want list, update it as needed, and she sends me a set dollar amount of stamps from their price list, minus a discount, every month. Very reliable and responsive. Other venues I’ve used: eBay, local bourses, monthly stamp club auction (very low dollar), local and regional stampshows, other online auctions (Nutmeg), post office (including Guatemala City), yearly ISGC mail auction, dealer websites, and my brother gave me some of his Duck stamps after the hunting season was over.

Anyone going to Chicagopex?

Eric
 

November 11, 2003 Jim Whitford-Stark

Eric Dyck

Neat posting, I wish more people would express their collecting interests.
And just basically introduce themselves.

Captn John
Letter in wednesday mail.

November 11, 2003 C Turner

Correction...
I meant to say my 2001 U.S. Specialized Catalog does not list a color error.

-Charles

November 11, 2003 Michael Walter

I don’t think that I will be linking to eBay auctions here like I once did. It is a waste of time I think. I think that now and then I will just post informative posts like the one below. To help the readers learn for themselves what to look for so that they are not taken by scams and misdescriptions. Knowledge is power.

November 11, 2003 C Turner

U.S. Scott 2369 Color error?
I was flipping through my stockbooks of mint U.S. material and came across an odd looking stamp which is U.S. Scott 2369, '88 Winter Olympics. I have provided a scan of the odd looking one and a normal one for comparison here.

The one on the left has full mint never hinged gum, so this color difference would not be the result of soaking off paper.

My question is, should I have this stamp expertized? My 1991 U.S. Specialized catalog does not list a color error for this issue. If it comes back as an error, any idea what it might be worth?

Thoughts, anyone?

Thanks,
-Charles
 

November 11, 2003 1845 Clark Frazier

Perforations on United States Stamps
David Shumaker

Here is the only fake perf 11 coil I could find quickly (actually it is the only I could find), discovered by Kiusalas. It does not look like cross-row alignment is its primary problem and the perforations are undoubtedly genuine.

I checked a group of five #500 (2 cent Washington perf 11, type Ia) straight edges and did not find consistently aligned perforation rows. However, it may be that perf 11 examples are more likely to be aligned. The 461 (2 cent Washington type I, single line watermark) perforations were made from new perforating pins and wheels on presumably existing equipment ordinarily used to produce perf 10 sheet stamps and flat plate coils. Perhaps some new perforators were added after 1917 to increase capacity and perhaps they may have been easier to keep the perforations aligned between rows.

This is really a question for Ken Lawrence.

-reperf

November 11, 2003 Bill Weiss

MIKE W; Teriffic visual posting below. The buyer of that trimmed #24 has not answered my email of last night asking him about it.

JIM G; The kind of biographical articles you think would be interesting have been appearing for decades! They are a regular feature of "The Stamp Wholesaler" which I think is now given as a section of "Stamp Collector" a Krause publication. Funny, now that we are talking about it - I haven't seen a "Stamp Collector" in about 6 months. Are they still in business? Does anyone know? Wayne Youngblood is the editor and the paper just can't compete with Linn's so it may have died off for all I know.

Anyway, back to your desire for these types of articles - why don't you write to Linn's and tell them you would like to see this type of article? I think newspapers are always looking for ideas to increase reader interest. The woman who does these biographical articles for the Wholesaler is teriffic. We were featured a few years back. All she does is telephone you up and interview you for about an hour. Being a pro, I assume she knows all the right questions to ask, and presto, a month later is an interesting biographical story about a stamp business! I can't believe you've never seen these? Try shopping around for back issues - if you care enough - of the Stamp Wholesaler.

November 11, 2003 Jim Griffith <griffith@dweeb.org> http://album.dweeb.org
 

Jim

November 11, 2003 prometheus

Michael walter + Eric
Thanks for the lesson , all burned to CD with your notes, Thanks very much I am almost back to this era in my hole filling .
Maybe I will get the right stamps in the right spot. Thanks again

Eric = Anything UN you are looking for,

November 11, 2003 Matt Liebson

Bill: I started around age 6 and was going to shows by 8 (it helps that my father had been a collector). While my tastes have evolved over time (from worldwide, though I developed a taste for pre-1940 early, to certain countries in high school.....and starting into postal history as I started college) I went straight through without ever dropping hobby.

November 11, 2003 17:52 Eric Dyck <edyck@kc.rr.com> http://www.KansasFolks.net
 

Membership
Well, it's time to post something. I feel like I've been eavesdropping, hanging around the edges of a group of folks who all know each other, chatting in a public place. So, I have this urge to at least let you all know I'm listening in. I collect US, UN, and Guatemala, not into postal history as yet. I buy some on eBay, and have sold a bit, nothing high dollar.

For the survey:

APS #199123
ISGC #911 (Guatemala, fake overprints galore)
Midwest Philatelic Society (KC, MO, USA) #2129
Age: 51 (almost middle of the bell curve)
Sex: yes, still
Wife: one
Kids: one to graduate in Dec., has a job lined up, more money for stamps soon, I’m cutting him loose (that’s the plan, anyway), the other still in college
Location: Kansas City area (Kansas side) Go Chiefs, 9-0
MasterCard #: whoops, better not post that
Beer: Boulevard Wheat (KC microbrew)

Eric

 

November 11, 2003 Michael Walter

There are tons of varieties and types of the one cent issues. I think these basics of the more common issues should help.
 

November 11, 2003 Bill Weiss

APS
JIM G; I am just quietly lurking here, enjoying reading all of the interesting posts. What I find really interesting about yours is the fact that you find yourself in a great minority as it pertains to APS, yet I assure you, that your collecting interest - US high-quality mint singles - is easily the most popular US collecting area! Seems kind of ironic that so little is written about such a popular pastime. I suppose ( and please don't be offended) that there isn't really much to challange one's brain in collecting mint singles. All it takes is a good eye, selective taste and MONEY.

I presume that's why most philatelic articles that appear in the various publications, from Linn's to specialty society publications, are more specialized in nature than simply plain old single stamps. I myself started at age 12-13 collecting F-VF-NH mint US singles, after floundering around between age 8-12 on foreign approvals from the giants of the day; Garcelan(?) Stamp Co., Kenmore, H.E.Harris, etc.

From 12-16 I bought F-VF-NH singles that I could afford (remember buying C1-6 (first US Airpost Sets) for I think about $29.!). Then, of course, at age 16 I found something a heck of a lot more interesting to persue - GIRLS! - which is what happens to most male collectors between the ages of 16-21 or so. What I have found though over the many years I've been in the business, is that a lifetime stamp collector is the one who leaves the hobby for the period, as with me, to fool with the opposite sex, and then, at age 21-25 (after college, etc) IF they return to philately, they are usually committed for life. I wonder how other board member's collecting careers compare to what I'm saying here?

November 11, 2003 Roger Heath

Follow-up
For the technically inclined, the bowline is used in a normal appropriate seamanlike manner, the cushions are where one would expect them to be in normal conditions, the fuel switch is "OFF", but the forward marine toilet is presently not functioning. I'll be happy to answer any questions other than the advisability of choosing boat names reflecting on the owner's mental qualifications.

Roger

November 11, 2003 Roger Heath

Immoveable Ship's Mail Boxes
Here's a photo of Ship's Mail Box #3 (just cropped out of the top of picture) and the consequences of trying to post a letter at low tide. The writer was in a hurry to avoid the "Late Fee", miscalculated distance, and now has a very special "wreck cover". He's probably OK, because blood, which is notorious for staining gelcoat, is not apparent in the photo.

Roger


 

November 11, 2003 Jim Whitford-Stark

Dweebie sorry Jim couldn"t help it
I don't mention my membership of RPSL in my auctions, for one thing it, would probably get me kicked out.
It costs a lot more than APS but has a great journal, phenomenal library, also a worldwide membership and a lot of really rich members who can afford to write about things many of us can only dream of.
With "you know who" being the patron.
You also get 2 "free" certs per year.
Who really cares if their front door is on the wrong street!!

November 11, 2003 Jim Griffith <griffith@dweeb.org> http://album.dweeb.org
 

Jim

November 11, 2003 Chip G

APS Ages
I see almost a perfect normal distribution (bell curve) with the median age around 53. Considering that the average life expectancy is about 76 years these days, the average APS member can remain one for about 20 years, on average, should they so desire.

I believe (Ken probably knows the answer) that the 'churn rate' of members is about 10-15% with the total number remaining about constant (3000 or so are purged from the roles in March(?) and replaced by about 3000 new members each year). This is all from memory, but is probably available somewhere.

While I do not personally support some of the policies or use many of the services that the APS has to offer, I do feel that I get my money's worth from them. Perhaps more importantly, I felt that it was important to join, as it is the best there is right now for supporting and growing the hobby. Until something better comes along, I consider my dues to be a contribution to that cause. I don't see anyone getting rich working for the APS, so I don't quite understand the complaints leadership of the Society just passing around the benefits to each other. In fact, if you look at the list of contributors to the APS, you will probably see that many of those same leaders are taking a chunk of their stamp money and putting it into the Society.

Chip

PS - if someone wants to help promote stamp collecting to young people, there are many resources available for you to use, regardless of any proclivities for or against any organization. The APS, the ASDA, and the USPS all have pages on their websites that will provide you the materials you might need to start a stamp club in your local school. May I recommend that one takes a look at the Free Publications page of the ASDA website where one can get a copy of "My Stamp Album" that can be printed at home or that can be ordered for the cost of postage. Its a start, but as Alison would probably tell you, you can make a difference if you just go and do what YOU feel is needed.

C.

November 11, 2003 David Benson

New Members
Almost non existant except for a few that join specialist societies. General societies don't have that much to offer apart from the smaller suburban societies that have auctions and trading. They seem to attract the crowds but not the major societies which do not allow trading or auctions as it detracts from the main part of the meeting, the display and talk. I have to agree with them as when I have attended a local society they try to get the display over as quickly as possible to get on their main part of the evening. At most of those types of meetings it would be difficult to get any of their own members to display.

David Benson

November 11, 2003 David Benson

Dave, exactly the same here, it is virtually impossible for any family to even contemplate buying a house unless 2 incomes, stamps HAVE to be put aside until mortgae is almost finished. I was speaking to an estate agent (realtor) a few weeks ago and he said that most young couples want top of the range houses with all mod. cons. and don't care about the cost only the monthly payments. We have just had a small interest hike with another one on the way to try to stop the housing boom. Unlikely it will work except effect the repayments of those already with a mortgage.

David B.

November 11, 2003 16:31 Dave F. (moderator)

Jim W-S: Sniped! (You put it much more succinctly than I did!)

November 11, 2003 16:30 Dave F. (moderator)

David B: In this country, with this culture, I think it's a good thing that there are at least as many younger people as there are.

Considering that it now pretty much takes 2 incomes to maintain a household, housing prices are way up, commute times increasing, etc., etc., I'm not surprised that one has to have at least a basic amount of both financial stability and free time in order to be able to feel like they can pursue this hobby.

Considering also that it takes a fairly long time to learn the ropes, and years and years to really develop an expertise (if that's even desirable for people just looking for a pleasant hobby), I'm not surprised that the numbers look the way they do.

November 11, 2003 David Benson <dbenson@bigpond.net.au>

Articles in Society Magazines
While we are discussing societies magazine that have diverse articles. One of my local societies has come across a quantity of it's yearly publications which contain some interesting world wide articles.

I don't know the price of each annual publication or the postage cost but the web page is

http://www.zipworld.com.au/~psnsw/Index2.htm

There may even be some from the previous era,

http://www.zipworld.com.au/~psnsw/Index1.htm

If anyone is interested in any article let me know at my email address and I will find out at the next meeting in December as well as the postage cost.

p.s. I get nothing out of it and my wife gets less as she will have to do the packing,

David Benson

November 11, 2003 Jim Whitford-Stark

Dave F
Probably an accurate representation, an interpretation

20-29 more interested in opposite sex
30-39 too much sex has led to little persons who eat a lot, demand to be fed and educated on little monetary resources
40-49 same kids, a little more income
50-59 kids are, or should have graduated, more income
60-69 I already joined when I had the money
70-79 can't see the damn stamps anymore
80-89 its easier than running a marathon with no one to catch you at the end.

November 11, 2003 David Benson

Dave, looking at that age group of new applicants it does seem to show that not many young members joining and the majority in the 40-60 age group. At least that is good as that is a good sign that there are still new adherents. It doesn't matter what age group as long as there are new collectors.

David B.

November 11, 2003 16:08 Dave F. (moderator)

One more piece of info:

Since there has been some discussion about the age of APS members, I took that same month's applicant/new member info, and just did a quick tally of age. I grouped the results by decade:

20 - 29: 4
30 - 39: 15
40 - 49: 31
50 - 59: 53
60 - 69: 29
70 - 79: 12
80 - 89: 3

Again, this is for one month's worth of new member applicants, not the entire membership. It is not as gray as I might have feared. (And so what if it is -- I'm picking up some gray myself.)


Now, I've got to get back to my regular work ...

November 11, 2003 Jim Whitford-Stark

Inquiring minds are inquisitive.

November 11, 2003 15:48 Dave F. (moderator)

David B. et al: I did not specifically ask whether or not people were from the US, nor their collecting interests, so I could only make a somewhat educated guess about non-US members collecting in a non-US area.

That said, it is possible to look at some other data.

Here is a description of the articles in the current issue of the "American Philatelist":

http://www.stamps.org/services/ser_AP_contents.htm

Of the 8 feature articles listed, 4 of them are clearly not US-oriented (Panama, Italy, British Indian Ocean Territory, Germany; plus one about US military mail around Cape Horn)

I haven't gone back to see if the web pages for prior month's issues are available.

Here is some additional data:

I pulled an issue from several months ago, to look at the collecting interests of new applicants. For each applicant, their name, membership number, location, and collecting interests are indicated.

From this particular issue, here are the non-US applicants:

Mexico: mushrooms
Costa Rica: Costa Rica
Canada: Canada & Netherlands
Hong Kong: not indicated
Canada: Estonia
Brazil: stampless covers
England: booklets
Guyana: British Guyana, US, UK
England: soccer
China: worldwide, Olympics
Canada: Canada, US, Great Britain


I can understand that people who live in the US, but not collectors of US material, have some benefits that non-US members would not have access to, such as borrowing from the reference library, or the sales circuits.

That said, clearly, a number of new US-based members do not collect US. Here are some of the non-US collecting interests of US-based applicants, from the same issue:

worldwide, British Commonwealth, Third Reich, Christmas,
France, Canada, Denmark, Danish West Indies, Europe, Vatican, Spain,
Haiti, NASA, number 1s, Mexico, Ireland, circus, King George VI, Japan, South Africa, Czech, Europa, UN, Latin America, Austria, Monaco,
Iceland, Italy, Argentina, Belize, Scandinavia, Switzerland

I also went back and looked at how much it costs to join. I appreciate that these fees will be expensive for some, but overall, I don't think it's that bad. The increase for non-US members is not nearly as great as I encounter as an overseas member of other philatelic organizations or as an overseas subscriber to a specialist publication, especially considering that the APS periodical is issued and mailed monthly (and has a lot of color pictures in it).

http://www.stamps.org/TheAps/abt_joindues.htm

So I think it is misleading to leave the implication on the table that this organization is only relevant for US collectors, or perhaps merely for US-based collectors.

I am not a shill for the APS. I also respect that several people have shared with me their personal reasons for not joining, not renewing, or for having resigned. As someone who tries to vote with his feet, I really understand those decisions. And I know there are always going to be people who have something with which to take legitimate issue.

But, and I suppose I say this at some personal risk to my own philatelic career, such as it is, other than some of Ken Lawrence's interactions on here, I have always had very pleasant, very productive interactions with APS staff and officers, and the Winter show that I attended was the best show I've been to here in the US. (I still think StampShow in London in 2000 was the best I've had the opportunity to attend thus far, but I'm looking forward to Washington 2006 for comparison purposes. And it's not fair to compare those to the APS shows.)

I would hate to think that some people, who might have otherwise been interesting in joining the APS and who would genuinely benefit from membership, have been alienated by what's happened on here.

November 11, 2003 Victor Horadam <horadam1@airmail.net>

And "thank you" to all of the soldiers from all of the countries throughout time who have fought on the side of those attempting to bring peace and freedom to the world, and to those innocent soldiers who fought on the wrong side for duty to their countries, albeit misplaced.

November 11, 2003 Roger Heath

Knud-Erik
Really interesting detail work. I guess this is 100 years of research, but I can't imagine that amount of detail being discovered in Hawaii. The weather's too nice in the winter, no extra time for stamps!

Roger

Excuse me, hack,hack!

November 11, 2003 Brian R

I''ve saved your posts, for the day I get around to these items, and just wanted to say thank you.

November 11, 2003 David Benson

Dave F, when you do your compilation of APS members, it may be of interest to note which are US based members and non US members.

I only know of 2 members in Australia and they both collect US.

David Benson

November 11, 2003 14:25 Dave F. (moderator)

Jim W-S: I still use a dial-up, and it's not too big for me yet.

November 11, 2003 14:22 Dave F. (moderator)

Knud-Erik: Thanks for trying again, and the outcome as it is right now is not too bad at all, but I'll go into the code and see if I can find some other things to delete to get rid of the extra space. If not, it's very workable the way it is. Thanks very much for going to the trouble to compose and publish it!

November 11, 2003 Jim Whitford-Stark

Update to MB site with Dave's nice postcard.

For those with slow connections - does it need to be split into two pages ?

November 11, 2003 14.06 Knud-Erik Andersen

November 11, 2003 14.03 Knud-Erik Andersen

November 11, 2003 13:40 Dave F. (moderator) <apsmembers@pacificanalytics.com>

Philatelic memberships
I certainly understand that some people are not joiners, and several of you have written privately to that effect as well. Not a problem.

I am simply looking for some proxy, some metric, for philatelic involvement and philatelic "literacy", if you will. There will certainly not be an exact correlation between those two components, nor between those and participation on here. But I wondered how many people were perhaps not actively participating on here but were nonetheless active and knowledgeable philatelists.

I don't want to provide too much information at this point, but I've heard from more than 50 people thus far. Most of them are APS members (since that's what I originally was asking about), but more than 80 other philatelic societies have been cited thus far as well.

Respondents have included not only members, but also officers and board members of what are generally thought to be some of the most respected philatelic organizations in the world. Several sit on expertizing committees of specialist societies and/or expertizing organizations. These are mostly people who would not be visible as active posters on here, so they're not who you might think they are, and some of them, because of the sensitive nature of their positions, will likely never post, at least under their legitimate names. (Here's a great case for registering for a posting id.)

My point thus far is that this board has the potential to be a great resource for those members of the philatelic community who are able to go online, for people of all experience levels who have a genuine interest in philately and want to learn more.

Moreover, I think a great case can be made that it is not only inaccurate but also inappropriate, and perhaps indeed impolitic (or pick another word: unwise, injudicious, self-destructive) to make sweeping generalizations and assumptions about the knowledge and experience level of the participants and readers of this board. This is not a group of chatroom hacks.

- - - - - - - -

Because I know not everyone checks in every day, I'll keep reposting once or twice a day, seeking information about readers' philatelic participation.

Here's a repost from last night:


In an effort to discern something about the people who read and/or post to this board, would you please let me know of your philatelic affiliations?

I am particularly interested in knowing if you have an APS membership (and if so, your number, if you have it handy).

But I'm also interested in tabulating your other philatelic memberships as well.

I will not publish any individual's information.

Thanks in advance!

November 11, 2003 13:35 Dave F. (moderator)

Knud-Erik: I've had the same problem myself when I've tried to post tables. I'm not sure why this happens, but I know Mauro helped me in the past with this.

Assuming you have prepared your page in something like FrontPage, if you look at the actual html code page, there are a lot of spaces and blank lines in the code. Most html code processors ignore those spaces, but apparently not the software that powers this board. I think if you delete all of those blank lines, the problem gets significantly diminished. Hopefully Mauro will remember for certain.

November 11, 2003 David Shumaker

However, It seems that beginning with the 11-gauge perforations, there was an effort to coordinate the perforation wheels involved in flat-plate production. This does not contradict the above since there were no 11-gauge coils. What I'm wondering is if new perforating machines were introduced at the time of the 11-gauge perforation? The watermarked two cent (461) seems to have random alignment, but into the 1920's I find that #500 is aligned, the 1923 series seems to be also, as are all the rotary coil and sheet waste issues (544,594,596 & 613). Thanks.

November 11, 2003 Dave P

Jim WS

With pleasure. And in the unlikely event of me posting anything else of use, no need for you (or anyone else) to ask.

November 11, 2003 Jim Whitford-Stark

Can I steal your London image to put on the MB site please Dave?

November 11, 2003 Dave P

Mobile Boxes
As nobody has come up with any, a feeble offering from me. This is a nice example of the London circular type on a poastcard 1910.

In my experience Southampton is by far the most common, followed by London, with the others some way behind. However this Jersey example is pretty worthless, enough to make a grown man cry, I bet the stamp was worth all of 2p.

November 11, 2003 David Benson

Christo, most probably a transfer from an album page which has permeated the stamp.

David B.

November 11, 2003 Alison Ruttenberg

Philatelic Memberships
I am not a joiner, I hate clubs and organizations of any kind. When I was a girl, I was kicked out of the Girl Scouts for refusing to say the Girl Scout Pledge which required that "on my honor.... I will serve God." That was the last club or organization I belonged to.

Being an athiest of course, I was not going to say that and I also refused to join any church even though my parents wanted me to. I refuse to give a political party designation when I register to vote, which means I can never vote in the primaries.

I was in the Air Force for over 20 years, and absolutely refused to join the Officer's Club, which meant that I was on the bad side of every Wing Commander I had, especially since Officer's Call was held once a month at the Officer's Club. When I was in the National Guard, I refused to join the National Guard Society, which means I got a talking to every year by my Commander.

I have refused to join the American Bar Association and the Colorado Bar Association and pay dues and join in their little action committees and projects. Of course, I am a member of the "Colorado Bar" in the sense that I am on the list of attorneys in good standing that are qualified by the Colorado Supreme Court to appear before any Colorado trial or appellate Court. I don't belong to any Judge Advocate's Society, Air Force Reserve Association, Americal Trial Lawyer's Association or anything else of the sort. So, when I got back into philatelics 5 years ago, of course it never was an issue to join any clubs or societies.

The reason why is that from what I see, clubs spend more time and money on politics, posturing and other stupid stuff like typing up minutes and worrying about refreshments. Instead of joining the Colorado Bar Association and being on the committee for the homeless and legal services for indigents (for example), I actually do something. I actively take pro bono cases and have spent thousands of hours representing indigents, homeless, working poor and prisoners who cannot afford counsel to help with legitimate civil rights issues -- rather than sit around some committee and talk about how to channel legal resources to the working poor and indigent population. Instead of joining some Reserve Officer's Association or other military association that spends alot of time in committees yakking about homeless and indigent veterans, I have gone down to the Vetern's Outreach of Denver and helped homeless and indigent veterans with their social security and veteran benefits issues and helped them with DUIs and other criminal law problems. And so on. Committees and Societies are a waste of time (for me), too much time talking talking talking and nobody actually does much. All that wasted effort but fancy letterheads, logos and stuff to put on resumes.

November 11, 2003 Christo van Zyl

AIG: I found this stamp from Ceylon, overprinted revenue and postage, surcharged 5 cents. This is the front and this is the back of the stamp.
What caught my attention was the inverted/reversed 1 on the stamp. Is this something which was originally on the cover and got transferred when the stamp was glued on there?
 

November 11, 2003 David Benson

Anyone have any idea who the 1st. organisation was that Ebay contacted and was turned down. (must have realised what it involved or maybe they wanted some compensation for the work).

David B.

November 11, 2003 11:15 Dave F. (moderator)

Christo: I just now got that code area cleaned up. Sorry you had to traipse through there before I could get it taken care of. ... By the way, I am still looking for that Japanese revenue catalog I mentioned. It was not in the usual places, so I'm having to dig a little more deeply. But I've not forgotten about it.

NOIP: I turned everything up to "high" on my firewalls (no cookies, no nothin') and followed that troublesome link. It is the same one as we had before, with the lovely "You are an idiot, ha-ha ha-ha-ha" chant. I don't believe there is any malicious code associated with it.

Speaking of same, with high firewall settings, I clicked on the auction link that Jim W-s provided. eBay needs to put 5 cookies on your computer for each auction you link on, and at least 4 for each seller's listing you click on. Amazing.

November 11, 2003 Jim Whitford-Stark

Christo

I haven't even looked through my own material, though I think I would have remembered if I saw one.

I did pick up this from Phil Bansner, yesterday.
I'm hoping that it has illustrations of a few.

Jimbo
I too ran a "view page source" and noticed the html goofs.

Dave F
Glad you could fix it, though I have been running mouse-over on every link beforehand.
At least eBay spoofers prove useful for one thing.

November 11, 2003 Christo van Zyl

David B: Thanks for the info on the Indian cancels. I have realised that those ones should preferably be collected on piece (same as the duplex cancels on the GB jubilees!). But I just can't let go of these half a cancels. A full half of a cancel is nicer than half of a half (i.e stamps showing part cds, part of the barred numeral cancellation.

Lars B: I eventually found your comment on the Lubeck cancel, hidden in there with the earlier malicious posting. Thanks!

 

November 11, 2003 Jim Whitford-Stark

Christo

I haven't even looked through my own material, though I think I would have remembered if I saw one.

I did pick up this from Phil Bansner, yesterday.
I'm hoping that it has illustrations of a few.

Jimbo
I too ran a "view page source" and noticed the html goofs.

Dave F
Glad you could fix it, though I have been running mouse-over on every link beforehand.
At least eBay spoofers prove useful for one thing.

November 11, 2003 Christo van Zyl

David B: Thanks for the info on the Indian cancels. I have realised that those ones should preferably be collected on piece (same as the duplex cancels on the GB jubilees!). But I just can't let go of these half a cancels. A full half of a cancel is nicer than half of a half (i.e stamps showing part cds, part of the barred numeral cancellation.

Lars B: I eventually found your comment on the Lubeck cancel, hidden in there with the earlier malicious posting. Thanks!

 

November 11, 2003 Christo van Zyl

Jim W-S: I saw your arlier posting re MB's and enquiring whether anyone had examples. Unfortunately I havn't had time to look through my own material - not very organized. The one I posted on my cancels I think was a gift from Greg Ioannou when I visited him in Toronto a while ago. Most of the ones offered on ebay are the Southhampton ones, on piece. They seem to attract quite a lot of bidding and sell for (I think) in the $10 - 25 range. I also saw a PC with a Southhampton MB on it on offer about ten days ago. Unfortunately had a diagonal fold which affected both card and stamp. About the other varieties I can't comment that much, as my eyes have only been opened to this subject recently!! One will probably need to do more specialised searches to find these.

November 11, 2003 Brian R

The origional composer of "taps" Brig. General Daniel Butterfield, died in 1901. He was given a hero's burial in the cemetary at West Point, where during the ceremony, taps was played.
 

November 11, 2003 Dave P

Another non-philatelic post. In the UK today is remembrance day (the official parades and services took place on Sunday). I am pleased to say that our post office, as well as many shops, stopped and observed two-minutes silence at the eleventh hour of the eleventh day of the eleventh month. I have a grandfather (who my father never knew) buried in Belgium, it is an aim for me to visit his grave.

November 11, 2003 9:37 Dave F. (moderator)

malicious posts
Big thanks go to Richard Frajola for suggesting an approach to editing/deleting the malicious posts. It was a perfectly obvious technique, once he described it. Sorry I didn't think of it on my own.

I will now go back and take care of the ones from yesterday.

I am grateful to now have an approach to deal with these on a going-forward basis.

A big shout-out to Richard!

November 11, 2003 Tad Mackie <tmackie at cox.net>

Experts names on APEX certs
I posted this last nite, but it got "stepped on" by the "cz" thing, so I am reposting it.

Experts names on APEX certs
I had occasion to question a cert I got from APEX a coiuple of years ago, and when I raised my question, the expertizers' notes were readily provided for me to look at, and the expertizers names were in the notes (although identity of the experts wasn't my goal). So it's not like anything is being hidden, Ibelieve if you are the submitter all you have to do is ask to see the notes supporting the opinion.


PS: I retyped this instead of cutting and pasting in case there was some hidden code, so this varies slightly from my original post.

November 11, 2003 Richard Ballhagen (spain_1850)

Dave - Can you edit the messages to include an "administrators warning" NOT to click the link?

November 11, 2003 Guillaume

Translation
Anne: Here is my version of the translation:

Bank cheques, (??current account), bank transferrals (bankcodes sent on request), transfer to my postal current account 35755008 in my name. Shipment by priority mail only at risk of buyer.

November 11, 2003 09:05 Jim Watson

Malicious Postings
David F.,
Don't let it bother you. We'll survive. In looking at the link posted, it looks more like an error by someone who didn't know what he was doing than something malicious. If we just ignore it, it won't be much of a problem.

Chip G.,
Thanks for finding and posting Tom Fortunato's link for the Dear Doctor people. I've updated the Maldive Islands page to include it.

November 11, 2003 8:44 Dave F. (moderator)

Malicious posts have been deleted. All current links should be ok.

November 11, 2003 Bill Weiss

Military Medals
Sorry for a non-philatelic post, but since today is Veteran's Day here in the USA, and since others brought it up, here's a personal story about an Army Medal. My father was wounded during WWII in Germany, and of course, for that he received the purple heart medal. He actually had two of them (I guess for another injury). He also had various other medals, good conduct, etc. When he passed away in 1970, he was only 50 years old. As the eldest child, and since no-one wanted them, I decided to bury his medals with him. I have always regretted this decision and whenever I see a purple heart medal I am tempted to buy it soas to remind me of my father and his participation in the war. But then again, I really don't need a medal to do that, do I? Sorry again for non-phil. post.

November 11, 2003 Richard Ballhagen (spain_1850)

Serial spoofer
Since we seem to have a serial spoofer in our midst, who likes to play games with links, it might be a good idea to do a quick mouseover on any links before clicking them, no matter how reliable the source may seem. If it appears to be from cz, or has the letters bbone29 in it - DON'T CLICK IT!

November 11, 2003 08.09 Knud-Erik Andersen

November 11, 2003 anne

Thanks in advance. Anne

November 11, 2003 Mauro Mowsowicz

John@MagnoliaStamps
John, can you scan/post some pics of your medals/badges?
Mauro

November 11, 2003 9:04am.cdt John@MagnoliaStamps

another vet and myself were discussing some of our antics one day and we decided that we shaould go down and have some coffee.So I gathered up my handful of medals that I was so proud of he grabbed his and of we went.We soon found that they meant very little to anyone esle,So now I sometimes jokingly will say with these and 75 cents I can get a cup of coffee.Not any more as I took the wife to the shopping center last night we stopped at Books a million and I bought her a cup.$1.89 for coffee,and I was totally amazed at the number of self endulging wieners,who were there just to drink 2dollar coffee and read the paper.I told her hell i'de rather go home make a pot and give the old coots on the chat board a hard time.YUK YUK! This is one of my depessing days as I pay my respects to the men who fought so bravely,and to those who were in my squad that are no longer here.The short time that I actually had a command I only lost 3 men over there,But over time 98% of my boys have subcome to either Agent Orange cancer,or drug related suicide,,To these BRAVE men I say SALUTE and may God have mercy on us.




Capt.John B.

November 11, 2003 John

That should have read 6 more months!!!

November 11, 2003 prometheus

Lest we forget
I know that this is an International Board ,
But as I get ready to go Play 24 little notes on my Horn this AM, I'd like to thank all veterans everywhere who served their countries.

Freedom is never free . and those that paid the Full price for
the rest of Us , Must not just be a footnote in a book somewhere.

 

November 11, 2003 John

I did that just for meanness!I give that bunch about 65 more months and then it will be like several other boards,It's almost like the Furbie board now.

November 11, 2003 prometheus

Chip G
Thanks for the Link
Hey you lurkers if you go Sign his guest book
he only has 4 sign ins so far

Let him at least know that you looked also there are a couple of people who signed the book that have an interest in buying Cards and related material.

November 11, 2003 Jim Whitford-Stark

Matt
I have seen some with pictures of volcanoes go at quite high prices.

November 11, 2003 Chip G

Dear Doctor Postcards:
Jim (Real McCoy) Watson: Everything (and more) that you ever wanted to know about Dear Doctor postcards.
Chip

November 11, 2003 Matt Liebson

though, following my own advice, my review of eBay listings suggests that they are NOT very popular on eBay. I am surprised....will have to see if anyone around here has them in their retail stock (given their popularity I'd be retailing them starting at $10 but I've been known to be wrong about things!)

November 11, 2003 Matt Liebson

Prometheus: They are a very good buy at 25 cents. You might want to see what they get on eBay.

November 11, 2003 prometheus

Matt L
If club forming should I start taking those from the 25 cent boxes again? if you have an opinion.

November 11, 2003 Matt Liebson

I think I saw in a recent Linn's that a club has formed or is in the process of forming that focuses on those Abbott cards and other similar marketing schemes. I may even have a more modern example for Hummer mailed from Saudi Arabia around here somewhere.

November 11, 2003 prometheus

Today's Postal and posts at the Bay
Jim W - I think it would be possible to do the Abbot's Pharm cards for everyday of the year.

Before I started reading cards I bought a few of those from all over, of course now they are a little to Modern for my taste.

I have seen more than one (pc) dealer with a seperate slot just for those cards , I wonder if it was a Good Marketing plan or if the
overall results made them consider it a success.

John,Roger, Et al Thanks for trying the discussion Over there I doubt that the SWC or the APS guys will post there Unless they are savvy enuf to have a posting ID.
Nice try guys I am going to watch and see how long they stay up.
 

November 11, 2003 02:53 Jim Watson THE REAL McCOY!!

I've also updated a previous cover for today which is nearly a hundred years older than the Maldive Islands PPC: Thurn & Taxis to Prague in 1864.

David B.,
Thanks for warning about those items.

David F.,
TIA for the cleanup you will do on that mess!

November 11, 2003 David Benson

D1, I noticed that as John D. sent the awards listing to my wife. I don't understand why.

David B.

November 11, 2003 Dave Elsmore Queensland

D1

November 11, 2003 David Benson

Beware the JIm Watson posts, check properties, if they are from cz., don't open,

David B.

November 10, 2003 Tad Mackie <tmackie at cox.net>

Experts names on APEX certs
I had occasion to question a cert I got from APEX a couple of years ago, and when I raised my question the expertizers' notes were readily provided, and the expertizers were identified in the notes (although that was not my worry.) It's not like anything is being hidden, I believe if you are the submitter all you have to do is ask.

November 10, 2003 prometheus

Thanks John + ? 4 NOIP
Wish I had more to add to the on going discussion of stamps and those that fake and sell them.

I did have it pointed out to me that a hundred or so people have gotten jail time/probation for selling fake beanie babies
on the internet.

I know their organization is much younger than the APS how come they get such positive results and Stamp folks get naught??

Are Beanie Baby collectors just more vocal and passionate about their Hobby. ?

Is it they don't have much to check or look out for in the bogus items in their field? They Only have TWO accreditated experts?

some-interesting-lists
Is your ebay name here ?? (just kidding)
Checked for those I know didn't see any

I find this site (above) an interesting form of expose', and wondered what it would take to do something like this for our hobby.

November 10, 2003 John Forsyth

Ken L and Others
Thanks for the response. The genesis of my question lies in what errors the compilers of the data made I suppose.I was involved on the edge of some of that and if another Stolow shows up, I would want the stake through his heart to be a final one. Learn what mistakes might have been made,and learn what WOULD make admissable evidence in a court of law.

November 10, 2003 David Moser <stamphick@dospalos.org`>

David

November 10, 2003 prometheus

hello all and good whatever it is where you are
I still wonder why the Ebay Board is unavailable for the frank discussion of what the problems are there?


Duncan Do you ever feel like you are diagonally parked in a paralell universe?

 

November 10, 2003 John@MagnoliaStamps

Prometheus

I mailed you a package of covers this eve.There is one card in the group that is in german,If by chance you can decipher it let me know what it says..

John

November 10, 2003 anne

Good night to all and to all sweet dreams of no brainer classes to teach (tomorrow's exam is printing out now), continued productive discussions on how to get fakes and fraus off of ebay, and interesting cancels of the day.

November 10, 2003 David Benson

Christo, re the India, very difficult to ascertain as there were so many offices. A is the code for North West Provinces, 22 would be the city and 7 for the sub branch but I haven't got the references where it was used. There was at that time almost 100,000 PO's operating. The T is part of a duplex with the TPO on the cds., no way of identifying it without the accompaning cds.

David B.

November 10, 2003 JOhn@MagnoliaStamps

Prometheus

I mail about ten or so early covers and what not to you this eve.There is a card in there if by chance you should read german would you decifer it and let me know what it said.I have forgotten the langauge.whats bad is I was raised in a german speaking household....

John

November 10, 2003 Christo van Zyl

France (Mulhouse Boulevard de L’europe, 89 Haute Rhin, 17H15, 4/5/1999)

Bahamas (Nassau, 3 30 PM, 25/8/1954)

India (A-22 over 7). Is this part of a duplex cancel? Anybody know more about these>

East India (Barred canceller with T). Probably had an accompanying CDS on the envelope/cover. Anybody with more info on these??
 

November 10, 2003 Jim Watson

Master's Thesis Subject?
xAnybody need a subject for a master's thesis in British Colonial History? Try the target=_blank>Pacification of the Chins.

November 10, 2003 Bill Weiss

Lang's Post
Well, I must say I am most pleased to see such a well thought out and moderately written post from Bill L.

I do hope you are joking though, Bill, about Ken L's published works? I believe you ARE an APS member, are you not? If so, do you ever read the magazine? If so, how have you failed to note Ken's articles on a wide variety of subjects in the last ten years? He has written definitive articles on both Private and Government Coils, a just-published article on the First U.S. stamped envelopes (Nesbitt issue), on expertizing, etc.

One thing you said in your post that I particularly do agree with is the use of names of experts on certificates as was the original method used by PSE. I know that Ken will tell you that in some cases, any MORE than three experts examine items, thus it is not practical to put names of experts on certs. I would disagree with that howver, as I see no good reason 25 names can't be listed if necessary - not that there is ever an expertizing situation that requires 25 different experts - so I'm exaggerating! I have always felt that by listing experts names on certificates it gives immediate credibility, particularly when the named experts are widely known as the best in their field. Give me ANY cert. for a Revenue (US) stamp with the names of Eric Jackson or Richard Friedberg, and I'm happy. Give me Albert Chang's name on a cert. for a US Possession stamp and I'm happy. Give me Richard Frajola's name on a Western Express opinion and I'm happy. It is a perfect way to illuminate that your finest people are examining the material and breeds confidence from submitters that can't be gained from anonymous certificates.

Done for the night.

November 10, 2003 20:40 Jim Watson

Web Sites
Dave F.,
You can find the APS affiliates websites here.

November 10, 2003 William Langs <wlangs@aol.com> http://www.wlangs.com
 

Bravo Ken Lawrence
Ken,

Welcome back to the chat. I wish you a speedy recovery......and no further vacations to the hospital.

I am very much impressed by your literary talents manifest in your 3 part series you posted earlier. It is the finest posting I have seen in quite a while here. Bravo. I would like to read some of your published philatelic works......are there any?

I once again offer my expertise to the APS.....I also strongly suggest that the APS list the names of the experts who have opined each "patient" (philatelic item). This added feature to your APS certificate business model will immediatly give enormous credibility to the APS certs. That those experts should be accountable for their opinions is of the utmost importance.

The ball is now squarely in your court Ken.

Get well soon.

Bill Langs

 

November 10, 2003 20:20 Dave F. (moderator) <apsmembers@pacificanalytics.com>

Philatelic memberships
(This is essentially a repost from earlier today.)

In an effort to discern something about the people who read and/or post to this board, would you please let me know of your philatelic affiliations?

I am particularly interested in knowing if you have an APS membership (and if so, your number, if you have it handy).

But I'm also interested in tabulating your other philatelic memberships as well.

I will not publish any individual's information.

Thus far, I've heard from about 40 people, and thanks to you all! I thought I had at least heard of most of the organizations out there, but I am pretty impressed by the number of specialist societies there are. (And thanks to Google, was able to find websites for almost all of them. -- I think there's a couple I'd like to join!)

Thanks again to all.

November 10, 2003 Terence Hines

Smart postage.
I suspect that "smart postage" is another one of those idiotic ideas dreamed up by some paper-pusher who never bothered to think through the problems with it, problems that Dana so nicely spells out. Stamps that uniquely identify the sender would be impossible to impliment is a free society.
Terry

November 10, 2003 19:15 Dana Krueger <dkrueger at kfl dot com> http://www.kfl.com/images/index.html
 

Dana

November 10, 2003 David Benson

Jim, I have to heartily agree that the workmanship of computer prints shouldn't fool anyone and that they can be reproduced by anyone with enough computer knowledge and 120gr. paper which is procurable at any paper specialist. If modern made computer fakes are allowed to flourish Ebay will be flooded with them and they should be competely banned from sale. When items are listed the seller has to agree that the material is not fake, any expert can easily tell from a scan what they are and they should be nipped in the bud as soon as they are listed especially if the seller is already on their watch list for similar material. When someone tried to sell US replicas a few weeks ago there was huge uproar. The same uproar should occur when any computer fakes are offered.

David B.
 

November 10, 2003 Jim Griffith <griffith@dweeb.org> http://album.dweeb.org
 

Jim

November 10, 2003 Jim Whitford-Stark

John F

I'm not sure even I will agree with what I write next but......
One is reminded of the Shakespeare/Sir Francis Bacon attempts at defining English literature and specifically, who wrote Shakespear's plays.
Experts do not want to seem to agree as to the true author.
But, you may argue, either way it is great literature.

Sperati produced forgeries, yes, but very good ones that required a lot of time and effort.
eBay forgeries did not require a lot of time and effort.
For the most part they are the efforts of swindlers to get the maximum return for the least output of energy.
Sperati, I assume, was proud of his work.
How anyone can be proud of hitting a valid stamp with a rubber inked cancel could be proud of their industry is beyond me.
Likewise the reproduction of a stamp from an auction catalog via a color printer does not take technological genius.

At least with both of the previous you actually get something.
To get a reproduction of an auction catalog offered for sale and no stamp at the end is something that most eBay scammers aren't going to last long at doing.
The problem is to catch them in a timely manner.
Before auction ends and people are ripped off

November 10, 2003 Brian R

Now, back to bed.

November 10, 2003 Richard Frajola

APS/Ebay
I have said very little about the new alliance as I await to see the results. The alliance is certainly a start to a process that many of has been "pushing for" for a couple of years now.

Two points that I do feel strongly about. First, if ebay is going to outsource the task of cleaning up one of their categories, I think the should PAY well for the service. Second, I think it is unrealistic for APS executives to think that APS has the in-house, or even the in-society, expertise required to perform the job. An alliance of several International groups would have more credence, spread the wealth, and spread liability of the daunting task at hand.

November 10, 2003 Anne

Concerning the history of involvement by APS and board regulars with cleaning up ebay: Nobody can be everywhere at all times (although an occasional doppelganger to teach my classes would certainly be a nice thing to have)or know everything that is going on at the same time. It seems that Ken--and presumably other APS members--have been working in parllel with board regulars toward the same goal. This has been happening at the same time as numerous other groups concerned with problems in other categories have complained, tracked fraudulent sellers, etablished web sites etc etc. There have been stories in the media about many of these (and yes, stamp fraud was mentioned and at least one board regular was interviewed). Neither the APS, the board, or any individuals can take full credit for the fact that ebay is now trying to clean house. The Powers That Bay were forced to by continued bad publicity coming at them from a lot of different directions. That said, it seems silly to continue arguing about who did what first and who's been more important. We've all had an impact and it's the cummulative effect that has made the difference. It makes more sense to move on and to make constructive suggestions to make the APS involvement as effective as possible.

November 10, 2003 Ken Lawrence <apsken@aol.com>

John Forsyth

I was not part of the APS leadership until August, so the only information I have is the summary report. That unfortunate experience of misplaced confidence was part of the reason that APS leaders at that time felt they could not rely on others to do this, and why it was necessary to create structures that are accountable to the Society.

November 10, 2003 Duncan Doenitz <croberts33 -at- juno -dot- com>

Forgot one question Michael

5) Are "as is" sales no longer allowed?

I have other questions as well, but don't know how to ask them without educating the forgers since they involve loopholes and things that are best not mentioned in public.

And Knud-Erik this bold lettering is for you, sorry it was omitted earlier!

Dunc

November 10, 2003 Bill Weiss

Various
MICHAEL W; The most interesting thing about the Canadian seller you linked to is that he appears to be clever enough to simply SAY NOTHING about the stamp! Given such a "non-description" I can't help but wonder what anyone could do to stop such a listing? Here we see a perfect example of an easy way for crooks to skirt around getting caught - simply do not describe the junk at all, start it at 1c, hope a lot of fools bid on it, collect the money! Let's face it, such offerings are impossible to stop. I did, however, send the buyer an email and simply asked him why he wanted to pay over $90. for a trimmed, thus valueless, stamp. Let's see if he answers.

I am pleased to see that Mr Lawrence is apparantly recovering nicely. I am sure his several posts below will keep the responses coming hot and heavy for the next day or so!

Someone noted below that if only there was open communication on the eBay chatboard, then the reporting (to that board) of suspect/fake/fraudulent eBay listings could be easily accomplished. It's too bad we can't accomplish that here! Suppose there was some way (?) to get the word out to eBay buyers that if they visited stampchat regularly, there was a steady reporting of suspect eBay listings? That being said, I can already hear those who will quickly point out that such a "constant" reporting of suspect lots might be loaded with incorrect accusations about good material. I can see where that might be a problem, but I wonder which is the greater problem - incorrect accusations OR buyers getting raped? There are lots of "armchair" experts around, but there are also lots of competent folks as well. I would think that if a competent expert states an opinion then anyone interested in the opinion or deciding whether or not to act on that opinion, would clearly understand that it is just that - an opinion. We are unable to ask any more of the established expert committees, so how could we do otherwise here?

Is this an idea worth exploring??
 

November 10, 2003 John Forsyth

NOIP:
To give up on the attempts to get the misdescribed seems folly to me. I have read several posts where people say something like "I turned in a few misdescribed ones or a couple of fakes and nothing happened, so I give up" Certainly, I would love to see 50 experts cutting these folks to shreds but it isn't going to happen. Some of this is going to get through, yet lets make sure it isn't the cheltenhams that get through.
Another issue that baffles me is the forgeries thing....I see no reason they ALL aren't marked. Sperati got up in the morning and put one shoe on then the other, then went on to cheat people that day. Addie does the same thing each morning. There is no difference other than one had a little more skill and finesse than the other.

November 10, 2003 John Forsyth

Ken Lawrence
In one of your comments you noted that evidence gathered proved worthless for prosecution of the bad guys. In what way did the legal eagles deem it worthless? Seemed compelling to me, the ordinary lay person.

November 10, 2003 Michael Walter

Pro 3cCoil
The coil is genuine in my opinion. The scan is poor but it seems to me this is a Scott #494 1916-22 perf. 10 type II (a very common stamp)

November 10, 2003 Duncan Doenitz

Praise

Thank you both, Ken Lawrence and David Benson, despite your differences, for your diligent battles against the forgers and bad sellers who infect the philatelic marketplace.

David said it best when he said that bad sellers on eBay are like someone seling tainted meat in the local grocery store. It is not right to remain silent about the problem simply because people tire of hearing about it. Just because the fight has been carried on for so long is no reason to give up and you two (along with guys like George K of course) have fought a hard, time consuming and thankless battle. So don't let your disagreements get in the way, remember the goal now that eBay is taking a huge step forward.

Oh, and since praise is the subject, thanks too, belatedly, to Knud-Eric and others like him who contribute so much. I too enjoyed Knud-Erik's post, but didn't say "thank you" because I had nothing beyond that to add to the information. In a similar vein, for example, I enjoy all the posts regarding Confederate States items, but never say thanks despite following all the links and reading for hours. But the discussions are certainly of great interest and they are appreciated, as are the many contributions made here, often on a daily basis.

Thanks too to the APS and the Stamp Community Watchgroup who are laboring behind the scenes for the benefit of eBay and all of us.

Thanks too toDave F for providing the forum.

And to Michael Walter for his special efforts in keeping the APS/eBay communications with us on track. Which leads me to a couple questions, Michael. They are meant for eBay more than the APS but the questions involve how the process works, and the APS seems to be our pipeline to eBay:

1) When a seller offers modern forgeries, he is required to mark every stamp in multiple blocks, right? Otherwise, it defeats the purpose since blocks can be broken up into unmarked singles.

2) Are bidders contacted in questionable sales, especially those that close before action can be taken? Think for example of the sale this year of an obvious paste job when a picture of an inverted Jenny was slapped onto a Canadian stamp and sold on eBay, for a substantial sum. On a similar note, what happens when bad auctions run to completion in a private sale?

3) Can questionable short term sales be "paused" while they are examined, to either be restarted or eliminated when a determination is made?

4) Is it necessary to link to every bad auction by an individual seller? At times in the past, one link would be given as an example and despite explaining that it was typical of the seller's current auctions, only the one single auction would be terminated.

Thanks again to all of you, this board is the greatest.

Duncan Doenitz

"I'm not an APS member but I do have ESP, does that count?"