StampChat Archives

Archive:  February 1 - 15, 2004

• Last updated:  20 March 2004

February 15, 2004 Brian R

hmmmm
Very interesting. LOL

February 15, 2004 Richard Ballhagen

Ken - Thanks for elaborating on your explanation. I am also of the mind that education of collectors is very important, no matter what hobby you persue.
On that note, I'd like to bring up a major difference between the 2 hobbies of Philately and sports cards. In philately you can acquire reference books on detecting fakes and forgeries for almost any type of stamp, and the material is generally available to the average collector. Sports card collecting seems to be light years behind in this respect. There are no available reference books for detecting couterfeits in general. In fact, collectors seem to be too lazy to even try. Instead relying on third part grading services to do it for them. They don't care how the graders come to their conclussions, they just want to see the end result. Collectors are just now finding useful tools to detect repairs or alterations in cards. Tools that have been mainstays for stamp collectors for generations. Things like magnifiers, thickness gauges, and UV lights are starting to creep into the hobby, which is a good thing in my opinion. This will, hopefully, put the hobby back into the hands of the collectors. How long it will take though, is anyones guess.

February 15, 2004 Ken Lawrence

Ferd W

The Wobblies are Industrial Workers of the World. International would be redundant.

February 15, 2004 David Benson

Bill, I doubt it Dan knows any and should approach the APS to recommend some if he intends to make the scheme work instead of the shambles it is in now. It is also not helping by the stifling of queries so that they do not even get to the review stage.

I have yet to hear of a single non US item that has been reviewed since the instigation of the system. It is no good to keep on saying that it is in it's infancy, the solution is more " volunteers " to get it to work. There is no place on Ebay to have a discussion with Dan Neary and it won't be solved by sending him emails, he has a habit of ignoring them.

David B.



 

February 15, 2004 Bill Weiss

Hello & Goodbye!
Once again I am limited to a single late-night post, due to Sunday being my usual poker day, which results in a late arrival here. While I did not set any records, I also did not lose, so we must count our blessings.
I note many interesting posts today and I am pleased that several of you find Ken's posts to be of interest. Like I said, you ought to read some of his philatelic writings as they would also impress you.. Next to him, I consider my own writings to be that of a child next to Poe (a bit dramatic I guess!).
One thing came to mind regarding the apparent problem with not enough experts serving on the SWC committee thus causing or resulting in foreign material not getting the same amount of reviews as US material. Why don't those of us here who see this as a major problem try to bring pressure to bear on eBay through direct letters & emails to....who?....Dan Neary?? Indeed, I doubt if it would hurt to do so, and who knows, it might wake them up to take a more serious look at the SWC and add some additional foreign-proficient experts?

February 15, 2004 Frank

Penny Black question
David B: thanks for the info and especially the point you brought up that if one margin is narrow the price drops substantially. Always hoping to come across a tin box filled with hundreds of them. If you visualize it will it happen? Good night to one and all.

February 15, 2004 19:50 PST Ferd W.

PRO... Definitions: SIU=Seafarers International Union / SUP= Sailors Union of the Pacific / ILWU= Internaional Longshoremen and Wharehousemens Union / IWW= International Workers of the World [ Wobblies ] FW

February 15, 2004 Chris

UN peacekeeping troops mail?
Are UN stamps valid for troops involved in UN santioned peacekeeping operations?

Chris - Vienna yearsets are not that expensive

February 15, 2004 19:45 PST Ferd W.

PRO.... I think you will find the 1935 Waterfront problems relate to Union jurisdication , SIU / SUP / ILWU, as the IWW problems were earlier . FW

February 15, 2004 Matt Liebson

Pro: nice card. And looking at it, I'll bet it's published by Rotograph. For sale by chance? But it is not 2 cents because it is two cards -- such cards could be mailed at the printed matter rate of 1 cent . It may be 2 cents because the sender wrote a message on the back of the other card, though. That's what happened with this one that I just sold a couple of days ago.

February 15, 2004 Jim Watson

Pro,
Just a side thought. Western College in Oxford, Ohio, was a women's college.

February 15, 2004 prometheus

More neat stuff
I saw a bunch of this kinda of thing today, Sheetlet?
Yeti
I had a slight rememberance of an almost discussion of Yeti?bigfoot Here.
I am now thinking I should go back for the Crop Circles and UFO ones just for grins.


On another tack
Here is my latest (today) Held for Postage Card.
Bought It becasue it was sealed in a hard plastic holder and did not figure out till later why held for another penny
HeldWhy

Then I got home carved open the holder and then discovered it was TWO cards folded together.
OHIOFANS?
Oh well at least it has an AUX mark.

February 15, 2004 Brian McInturff

Thanks Dave, that's the list I was looking for.

February 15, 2004 16:27 Dave F. (moderator)

Illegals
Brian Mc:The AskPhil site has a section on illegals on their "Resource Library" page (right column, toward the bottom of the page), but here are the 4 links they provide:

Introduction to UPU Illegal Stamps Effort

Directory of UPU Illegal Stamp Notices

Issues Believed by Collectors to be Illegal

Illegal Issues by Topic

Hope that proves helpful.

February 15, 2004 Brian McInturff

I thought someone had a list of all the "bogus countries". That at least is a start. I'll remember where I saw that list and post it when I find it.

February 15, 2004 David Benson

Brian, that is one of the problems. The UPU has organised a list of legal stamps issued but not a list of illegals.

The list only started in 2002 and stamps before that are sometimes hard to determine. Common sense wil determine some, but as KL said (or was it Winston C.), so much has been issued by so many.

If you go here

http://www.wnsstamps.ch/en/

enter the countries name you will get a list of all stamps that have been authorised by each issuing country from 1st. January 2002 or by the date of joining the scheme.

David B.

February 15, 2004 David Benson

Jim, I said JUVENILE STAMP trade, I did not say Juveniles. At some of the prices they ask for Miniature Sheets (Souvenir Sheets in the US). Some of them run into $100s.

David B.

February 15, 2004 prometheus

Hello All
Of course I found lots of interesting things today
here are a couple
First is a book Read the title
Book

The next two scans are very neat stamp items look and see if you don't agree
Closed open

I have scads more But first to read the Seattle Post Intelligencer of July 13 1935.
I want to know why the Riots and Martial Law.
and also read the story about Public enemy number 1 mahan

February 15, 2004 Jim Whitford-Stark

David
Will agree with you down till last line.
They are not produced specifically for juvenile audience.
They are produced for the gullible.
Age has no boundaries.

February 15, 2004 Brian McInturff

illegals
Dave, isn't there a website that list all the illegals. If you have the url could you post it? The gentleman of spoke of yesterday has a lot of these and I'd like to show him a list. That way he'll see what he's been throwing his money away on.

February 15, 2004 David Benson

Bob,

before I get replies,

I am not that concerned about the sales of them on Ebay and don't mind them being listed under Cinderellas if they are described as fantasies. On the other hand modern made Computer fakes have no right to be listed, not even under Cinderella, possibly under Waste Paper,

David B.

February 15, 2004 David Benson

Bob, hope that Dan reads it and notes some of the remarks.

The writer was Canadian and only mentioned the forgers of material he collects. The closest Fournier to Canada I can think of is the Tablet issue of St. Pierre & Miquelon.

I agree about the modern mass produced illegals but hold a slightly different opinion to Richard who is concerned about the loss of revenue from the sales of genuine stamps. I believe that the modern Illegals should be banned from all Exhibiting even at Club level to the highest level of International Exhibiting and that a person at a local club should inform a new collector if he notes any in his collection. They should be banned from being sold at all Stamp Exhibitions worldwide. The wholesalers and distributors should be barred from advertising in any Philatelic magazine. Internet sales are another problem and there is nothing to stop them from selling from their own sites or in non Philatelic magazines. Internet " Auctions " like Ebay should ban Wholesalers and distributors from listing them but of course nothing can stop private sellers or small dealers from including some in their sales and in part of a larger lot.

I know there are some, especially in the US who can see nothing wrong them but they are not stamps, they are just expensive pieces of paper with pretty pictures produced solely for the juvenile stamp trade.

David B.
 

February 15, 2004 15:25 Dave F. (moderator)

reporting study
Just a quick post to say that enough people are interested in helping out with a reporting study that it looks like it should be able to go forward in a few days. I think I've noted everyone who indicated an interest either here or by email. We'll work out the particulars offline.

Thanks very much for the interest.

February 15, 2004 3:18 pm Bob in WA

John -- Look forward to seeing you there, and thanks for the link. Wow, Tony Wawrukiewicz will be there; awesome! And doing two of the presentations! For you others, check John's link below and this is HIGHLY RECOMMENDED if you can budget the time and travel. I am lucky to live 70 miles away from this wonderful annual event, for which some people travel 1000 miles to attend. If you like stamps you will not regret making the effort. Bring a few nice auction items to pay for the trip. The silent auction requires all lots start at $3, but the "noisy" auction is whatever, although lots in the $10-40 range seem to do best. I set a new record selling a $950 lot there last year! Sellers fees are $1 TOTAL for all lots! You take home 100% of what it brings! The meeting always starts by going around the room, each person standing and introducing himself. I plan to mention I am Bob in WA and frequent eBay and Frick chat boards. Any of you others might do the same. Hope to see a few of you there.

February 15, 2004 Duncan Doenitz

Scanners
Paolo Is the scanner that gives you difficulties by any chance an Acer brand?

I have an old Acer that, combined with two separate computers and two different operating systems (Windows 98 and Windows XP) developed a mind of its own and would no longer function with either machine, like some kind of planned obsolescence.

A search for "Acer" online produced no results but I discovered that the brand is now found under "Benq" and new drivers are available at the Benq site. A new driver fixed the problems.

Its not much of a scanner but it only costed US $30 years ago when scanners were more expensive so overall I am quite happy with it.

Dunc

February 15, 2004 Paolo Bagaglia

Make that: "...in Rome since 1999, passed away." => "...in Rome since 1994, and passed away in 1999." Some who were there on the eBay stamp board posting in that month of September (it was on her birthday, actually, September 26, 1906) might recall... like Jimbo who was confronted with my problematics ;-) for my bid on his "triple invert on cover" (it was a charity auction).
Good continuation (I will keep my word for future posts), Paolo

February 15, 2004 Mauro Mowszowicz

Brian M
About your Israel cover, the red censor band says "Opened by Censor" and the pencil notation to the lower left says "German Language".
Please let me know if you need any other information.
Regards
Mauro

February 15, 2004 Paolo Bagaglia

Hello!
Thanks for your kind replies to Chris, Jimbo, Duncan D., to those who I might have missed and to those who composed a post on the topic but then decided to cancel it:
As for those related on how many unborn posts are conceived, in average, I think I can now be more tranquilly since am not the only one! LOL
I find it funny that in a few occasions I think of it as though of a demonstration of my personal indecision; when I should just think that in most of the cases the quest for a tranquilly and peaceful cooperation, therefore avoiding flaming words or phrases, should already be a more than sufficient reason for the post to be edited, or just left "in the mouth". On the other hand, sometimes I exceeded for imitation or for utter irritation.
Duncan I truly am happy for that! Please introduce my regards to your father, sympathetic at first sight since he likes races like I like motorcycle racing, always love him and take good care of him: you won't have regrets when his time will come (hopefully in the very far future), like, on the opposite, I had when my grandma, affected by Alzheimer and confined in a house for old people in Rome since 1999, passed away. I could not visit and assist her with the frequency and care which were due.
I want to close here this 'excursus' of my personal impressions and sad life experiences and from now on will try to make my posts philatelic again, with a touch of forced asepticity for a change: strictly down to the detail and no mercy for the con-artists (oh well, there I go again ;-) Just wish our (mine and my wife's) new computer could find new scanner; we're just like before with ole computer and scanner munitaned.
Kind regards, Paolo
 

February 15, 2004 David Benson

Frank,

forgot to mention, even if they have 4 clear margins, they might still only be worth a fraction of catalogue as the prices decrease dramatically if even 1 margin is close.

David Benson

February 15, 2004 David Benson

Frank, some difficult answers. There were approximately 200 Million produced. How many still around on the open market or in collections, who knows, anyones guess. How many 4 margin are available out of that, guessing, about 5% have 4 margins. How much are they worth each, all depends on Plate and if a certain position on that plate demands a premium. The dealer most probably has priced his other material to allow for the freebie.

David B.

February 15, 2004 Frank

Penny Black
How many of the 1840 British Penny Black were produced and any estimate on how many of them are still in circulation? Was there any hoard of them recently discovered? Why I ask is a English dealer advertised in Linns Stamp Weekly (1/26/04,pp 27) offering a free used Penny Black in 'perfect' condition and with four good margins to customers spending a minimum of US$300. The 2004 Scott catalog values a used copy at $190. Seems like a pretty good deal. What is wholesale for this stamp used?

February 15, 2004 Brian McInturff

Israel cover
I'll look through the other boxes packed and see how many fromIsrael there are. I didn't think there was much to them.

February 15, 2004 Ken Lawrence

Israel
Brian M,

Doar Ivri is the first regular issue of Israel picturing the Coins, inscription in Hebrew only, following the overprinted JNF labels that were used as provisionals. Doar Ivri stamps with tabs are very good (because few thought to collect them). If you have much of that and wish to sell it, you should consider consigning it to Yacov Tsachor in Tel Aviv.

February 15, 2004 Brian McInturff

Israel cover
Here's the back

February 15, 2004 David Benson

Brian, if you et a ruler, place them along the edge of each side of each stamp and see it the perfs. on the tabs are on the exactly the same line.

Because the name of the country had not been determined the stamps were produced beforehand with the words HEBREW POST (Doar Ivri in Hebrew) instead of Israel.

Dovid ben Moshe Baruch

February 15, 2004 Brian McInturff

Israel cover
I checked them out and although some of the perfs appeared seperated some are completely intact.

February 15, 2004 Brian McInturff

Israel cover
Ken So are these covers sought out? Again, I've no knowledge in this type stuff. Big learning curve here. What is a Doar Ivri issue, the ones with the tabs underneath?

February 15, 2004 David Benson

Brian, I also looked at the 1st.Coin cover and agree with KL (I am also sceptical, with a C as that it is how it is spelt here). It would be no problem to check to see if the tabs have been added if the item was sighted. A magnifying glass should be enough. There appears to be misalignment of the perfs. between the stamps and the tabs. Unusual destination would increase the value to a specialist but the dust marks would decrease the realisation.

I also can't read Hebrew (even though my father was a Rabbi, Ken you were one generation out). DJS on Ebay Chat should be able to help.

David B.

David B.

February 15, 2004 David Benson

KL, sent to Dan, see, we are both on the same side,

good guys against the evildoers,

David B.

February 15, 2004 Brian McInturff

Dave B I agree now. Didn't quite understand he was actually pertaying them as genuine. Thought he may have been leaving it up to the buyer to decide. Sorta like me posting the Israel cover. Personally, I'm certain everything is as originated. But others, just like Ken would be skeptical since they don't know any history on this one item. As far as they know I could've purchased yesterday at a bourse.

February 15, 2004 Brian McInturff

Ken I'm assuming everything is original. Several years ago I purchased an estate and these were in there. As far as I could tell the gentleman saved covers but never actually purchased. I have hundreds of his correspondances from south America, Europe, Eastern Europe, etc. There are other correspondances to the same people. If I'm not mistaken the gentlman who oowned these was a doctor during and after WWII.

February 15, 2004 David Benson

KL.

will send Dan a copy of the web site, will let you know if a reply,

David Benson

February 15, 2004 David Benson

Brian, many have catalogue value listed, that infers they are genuine. According to the statements regarding the SWG it needs 2 members to determine if an item is fake, if so then a report goes to Ebay and whoosh goes the lot eventually. It appears that is many cases reports don't even go that far as they are stifled at Ebay and not forwarded to the SWG. The members of the SWG would have no problems in determining the bad ones and they should then go through the system of contacting Ebay, Vendor, etc. It is because of a lack of manpower that non US material is not being checked as much as US material. If you check listings on the US site you will see that non US material is more than US material.

The vendor states when he is listing that he believes the item to be genuine and correctly described. In many cases I doubt it and the vendor knows the item is bad and uses deceptive language to try to induce novices.

A simple remedy would be to increase the number of checkers, posibly calling for volunteers,

David B.

February 15, 2004 Ken Lawrence

Brian McInturff

I can't help with the Hebrew, but I'm curious whether those tabs actually originated on the cover or if they have been cleverly added. That is the most frequently seen type of fakery on the Doar Ivri issue.

February 15, 2004 Ken Lawrence

David B

No, APS does not pick the checkers, only some of them, and only at eBay's request. APS reviews any stamp that at least two of the checkers regard as bad, which is frequently an insurmountable threshold.

I think the stamps you cite are candidates for Dave F's reporting system, especially if you have asked the sellers to take them down and have been ignored or rebuffed. At this point, information on the extent to which the system is or is not working should benefit us all.

Sure, send Dan Neary the article. I doubt it will sway him, but no harm in trying.

February 15, 2004 Brian McInturff

Dave B I personally don't have a problem with "may be genuine" as anyone who bids is taking a gamble. Also if it's a seller of a different country than what he may collect then he may actually not know for sure if it's genuine or not. Should he assume it's not and just throw them away. I know the point you are trying to make but there will be a fine line on where to cross. Once ebay pulls an item and said seller proves it's genuine after all, then ebay has to worry about the problems created by doing said act.

February 15, 2004 Ken Lawrence

Richard B

I'm referring to outright counterfeits and unlicensed items. I'm really not versed in sports cards except to the extent of having witnessed debates comparable to the one Richard W and I are having regarding stamps, and knowing that passionate collectors want everything while owners of rights and big dealers detest interlopers. That's like Michael Laurence's fondness for his first day cover of the counterfeit Elvis Presley stamp of Grenada versus the agents and sellers of genuine Grenada and Grenadines stamps that are seldom seen in those islands and Richard Warren, their eloquent anarchist advocate.

Were I a sports collector, I'd devote myself to educating others on these subjects as I do for stamps. It is necessary to combat fraud, and the very best way to do that is through education, and to persuade appropriate law enforcers to do their jobs. But at the end of the day, it's equally important for collectors to understand our own culture, which values stories over the collectibles themselves, and those stories, in turn, imbue the collectibles with value. (I am referring to collectibles that have no intrinsic value.) Truly successful counterfeits often have good stories.

Bringing this back to philately, consider the British Guiana One Cent [black on] Magenta of 1856. Ever since Maurice Burrus demonstrated that it is really an altered Four Cents, scholars have chipped away at bits and pieces of the legend. Nevertheless, for most of my lifetime it was touted as "the world's most valuable stamp." It has lost that title by virtue of not having sold in many years. But the current owner, John Du Pont, is a billionaire convicted and incarcerated for homicide, who himself appears as an image on a legal stamp of Redonda (an honor he purchased for himself for $10,000). Whenever that stamp (the One Cent Magenta, not the Redonda Du Pont sheetlet) appears again on the market, it will sell for an enormous price, notwithstanding the mundane, perhaps sordid, truth, enhanced as never before by its current owner's notoriety.

Tell me this: When the One Cent Magenta appears for sale on eBay, how can anyone assure that its description will be accurate and complete? Yet unless we are all of us willing to look into this cultural mirror and see that we are not the loveliest in the land, we'll continue to pursue unattainable fairy-tale solutions to intractable problems.

(Scrambling metaphors is my specialty, Dunc.)

February 15, 2004 Brian McInturff

Israel cover
Can anyone offer some info on this cover ? Any translation would be appreciated.

February 15, 2004 David Benson

interesting description,

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2987669258&category=3485

maybe a repro would be better,

February 15, 2004 David Benson

KL, I suggest you look at New Brunswick & Nova Scotia listings, most of the fakes are easy to tell and must have been reported by now,

David B.

February 15, 2004 David Benson

KL, wonder if Dan ready the article, do you think I should send it to him.

You mentioned that other day about the problem the APS was having finding checkers for British Commonwealth and that most of the culprits were overprints. I went through a couple of countries listings and found about 50 forgeries which I reported. There were only 3 overprints, the rest were forged stamps, mainly classical forgeries and usually with deceptive descriptions, such as " may be genuine " and stated catalogue value. Of course no reply from Ebay and all are still listed. If that was a random check then there must be many more out there. I know that the APS is having problems but it is imperative that the same standard is used for non US material as it is for US material.

David B.

February 15, 2004 Jim Whitford-Stark

Bill W

I should have added that it is always a pleasure to read the thoughtful and well-argued writings of people such as Ken and Richard, whether one agrees with them or not.

Having been the reviewer for numerous scientific journals and book publishers, I know it is often difficult to get writers to write for an audience that knows nothing about which they write. It is commonplace for writers to assume that the audience has an intellectual background commensurate with themselves.

On the other hand, one has to be careful to avoid assuming that the audience is composed of morons and that every idea has to be spelled out in excrutiating detail.

Within the stamp world, and especially on eBay, one has the idiots whose auction title consists of the Scott number and price and an auction description which consists of "see scan". Personally, I would not touch any of these auctions. The seller is either too lazy to produce a more informed description or knows not what they are doing. This is excluding those who deliberately go out of their way to deceive.

Like Colin, I enjoy writing up auctions for eBay. Unlike Bill W, selling stamps via auction is not my bread-and-butter. I am thankful for people like Matt who are both collectors and appear to know what they are doing when it comes to appraising values.

Like Jimbo, I also edit most of what I write, sometimes biting my tongue when I remove what I would like to have written and at other times erasing the entire post as being a too self-serving vent of my ego.

Maybe I should have erased this one?

February 15, 2004 Richard Ballhagen (spain_1850)

Non-philatelic post that is sort of related to recent discussions
Ken - Not quite sure which sports card items you are comparing to, which you beleive will be the "HOT" collectibles of the future. Are you refering to outright counterfeits, officially licensed reprints, reprints doctored to look like genuine cards, or unlicensed items such as Broders or Michael Schecter specials? In most of these cases, there is quite a bit of uproar that someone isn't trying to stop the production of these, especially counterfeits and doctored cards. There is also a large contingent of collectors who don't care, mostly because they don't understand how big the problem is. The bad part is that there is no organization, such as the APS for stamps, that places like ebay can call upon for help, so the problems go unchecked.

-Richard- (stamp and sports card collector for the past 35 years)

February 15, 2004 Duncan Doenitz

Bits and pieces

Ken Thanks for your concern my friend, trust me I have not lost my sense of humor. In fact, I've enjoyed some very hearty laughs while observing some of the recent exchanges here.

I don't agree that two wrongs make a right, so heaping more abuse on collectors does not seem like a good thing to me, so opposition to the flagrant illegals just seems right to me.

Paolo I'd like to extend a belated "thank you" for two separate things... one for your support against fraudulent stamps. But more importantly on a personal level, thanks to both you and Jim (jaywild) and others for illustrating the importance of keeping in touch with our elders. My Dad is a big NASCAR racing fan so of course today we had a long conversation prior to the Daytona 500 race. Dad is 83 years old and our conversation today was more significant and enjoyable due to the reminders from you both.

Jim Watson That tete beche pair of stamps was cool! My grandson is nine years old and a stamp collector who loves to exchange mail. The next letter to him will now include a modern tete beche pair, along with an explanation of the pairing, so he will have a hands-on collecting experience.

Dunc

"How high do you have to be to make a parachute jump? About three days of steady drinking should do it." (Been there, done that, but sober.)

February 15, 2004 Victor Horadam <horadam1@airmail.net>

General
Matt, normally I'd show no quarter on bidding. But, when the lot is pointed out on one of these chat boards, I won't bid against one of my board friends. (Unless, of course, I really, really, really want the lot, and just have to have it - then hypocrisy rules.)

February 15, 2004 John Gordon <johnr at castlemoyle dot com>

Stamp Day in Washington State
Here's an early notice for a fun and informative stamp day in (almost) the center of Washington State. (Bob in WA claims his town is the real center.)

The Moses Lake Philatelic Day will be April 2 in Moses Lake WA (right on I-90 for easy access from almost everywhere. Some of the topics include Tony Wawrukiewicz on ONE FRAME EXHIBITING - THE HOWS AND WHYS; Arlene Sullivan on the SAGE ISSUES of France; and Bruce Landry talking about THE GRILLED ISSUE STAMPS OF THE UNITED STATES.

There's a silent auction all day long plus a regular auction to end the day. I've attended the last couple and had fun plus learned a lot. Hopefully, I'll again see Bob from WA, plus maybe some of the other regulars from here.

For an information page you can click there.

John

February 15, 2004 Matt Liebson

Brian: I would price that at $15 or $20 but not a big market for it. I was just pricing some covers for my retail stock (doing the club show in Canton OH in mid-March; I only do 2 or 3 shows a year) and had a bisect of the 2 cent Sullivan expedition used on postcard, which I priced at $20.

Vic: feel free to bid against me. I rarely give quarter to others when I want something and I expect none in return. :) More often than not my bids are dealer buy prices unless it's an Ohio item.

February 15, 2004 Victor Horadam <horadam1@airmail.net>

Matt: I passed on one of those "pointing hands" covers you already had a bid in on. Bob L. pointed them out to me. It would have been nice if the seller had just stuck them into one lot though. Good luck, I'm trying on a few.

February 15, 2004 Chuck Harm

Ken - It would be an anomaly on this board to have cursing be done silently.

February 15, 2004 Ken Lawrence

Bill Weiss

Naturally I'm grateful for everyone's compliments, and try to honor everyone's wit and style myself, but I'll wager some of this list's readers are silently cursing you for luring me onto this board.

Effective writing should entertain, inform, record, and provoke. To Dave Frick's credit, we have lots of it here.

February 15, 2004 Ken Lawrence

Antecedents

Dunc,

Don't let your passionate dislike of stamp fraudsters rob your sense of humor. The Clinton-Lewinsky cartoon illegal stamp is funny, whether or not you agree (as I do) that no one should have been peering through that keyhole for an impeachment pretext. I don't collect this stuff, but I appreciate that it is more inspired than most legal stamps issued this century.

More important is what evil you believe you're saving us all from. To my mind, a person who knowingly buys properly described and indelibly marked crappy copies of stamps isn't one to grasp the lifeline you're tossing her/him. And protecting people from themselves is ordinarily not a fruitful activity outside mental wards.

As for counterfeit knock-offs of (today's) genuine baseball cards, they are destined to become the expensive and hotly sought future rarities of the sort that I described when I first joined this debate. Again, whom do the laws protect except Topps and celebrity athletes? I'm not writing here about someone who defrauds a collector by counterfeiting a Mickey Mantle rookie card. Expertizing protects that buyer if he has sense equal to his spending habit.

The best philatelic example is the fakery of Jerry Mather. Mather counterfeited and sold literally hundreds of thousands of United States first day covers in the 1970s. As far as I know, he is the first person since the venerable Albert C. Roessler to have been prosecuted for counterfeiting U.S. postal markings, and unlike Roessler, Mather actually served time in the penitentiary for his crime. But today, while genuine FDCs of the 1970s are worth ten cents to a dollar each, Mather's fakes sell on eBay for ten to one hundred times what their genuine counterparts bring, and rightly so.

Richard Warren persudaes me that postage stamps of Myanmar are the remnant that I concede exists on the margins, but that example cannot counter the relentless negation of stamps and mail in every modern country, nor stamp agents' predation in nearly every Third World country (Cuba excepted). Together, metaphorically hand in hand as they curse one another, postal administrations and illegal imitators are suffocating the world's new issue stamp market. Not even Richard Warren can use a legal stamp of Redonda to mail a letter on that island. The rest of the world's postage stamps and mail are situated somewhere along the scale between Myanmar and Redonda, but closer to the latter pole. I really don't care where Richard draws the line. Rather than waging a rearguard action against destiny, of which the illegals are merely one inevitable ingredient, I look forward to the grand (Hegelian) negation of the negation, even though I cannnot, as the Old Mole wrote, write recipes for the cookshops of the future. No nihilism here whatsoever.

February 15, 2004 Brian McInturff

Bisect
Let's try that link again
bisect

February 15, 2004 Brian McInturff

bisect
What would you price this bisect at? I looked at it closer and it did go through the mail like this. The cancellation goes onto the other half and matches up perfectly under magnification. Also there are no cut marks seen on the pc between the 2 under magnification. Not worth much but is a nice little oddity I'll put on ebay.

February 15, 2004 Ken Lawrence

David B

That's an interesting article in CSN, but I believe the conclusions one draws from it are in the mindset of the reader, especially since Canada may be unique in having copyrighted its classic stamp images. Dan Neary would probably find as much support for his view in it as you do for yours, and I certainly do for mine (except that, in concurrence with the APS Board, I cannot yet dignify computer-generated forgeries as comparable even to the least skilled work of Scott, Taylor, the brothers Senf, Sperati, and the rest).

February 15, 2004 Jim Lawler

Jim L.

February 15, 2004 03:33 Jim Watson

My second item is a rather attention-getting registered cover from British Honduras to the United States in 1905. Does it have a previously unreported tête-bêche pair?

Paolo,
Yes, I often bite my tongue while editing and cut out words which only inflame. I also sometimes prepare a post and decide against posting because my thoughts no longer fit or someone else has already provided a good answer.

February 15, 2004 Richard Warren

See ya ...

February 15, 2004 Jim (jaywild)

Just a few minutes left in the day to squeak this in—Valentine’s Day also happens to be the day, in 1912, that Arizona was admitted to the Union. Happy 92th Birthday!!!

February 14, 2004 Michael Eastick <michael@michaeleastick.com> http://www.michaeleastick.com
 

Phoenix and St Louis APS shows next weekend
Any body on this board going to these shows next weekend. I will be at Phoenix on the Saturday and St. Louis on the Sunday - love to share a coffee or beer with any other chat board users.

Cheers - Michael

February 14, 2004 Chris

Unsent posts
Paolo At least one and sometimes a whole bunch.
There are also some phrases I keep talking myself out of using.

Chris - run silent, run deep

February 14, 2004 Jim Whitford-Stark

Bill W
I enjoy the repartee between KL and RW.
The writings of aging anarchistic hippies makes for interesting reading.

Especially when two different cultures are involved.
No disparagement meant to either writer.

February 14, 2004 Paolo Bagaglia

Dave F. Thanks for your response on that topic (I foresee, as I had foreseen no one else will respond: too introspective or complicated for many to even bother, from their highth)
"Harigató" -- Thanks again, Paolo (off to sleep as it's already past the time for me).
Good continuation, Paolo
 

February 14, 2004 Jim (jaywild)

Jim
 

February 14, 2004 Brian McInturff

Matt We have members that seem to only show up once a year if that. I'm the treasurer and 2/3rds of the members I've never met, in 5 years. But they're mail in their dues. Seems I'm the one everyone recommends to get advice from. I'm in a resort retirement area so the average member is over 70, most around 80. A couple of younger guys have joined in the past year so it is encouraging.

February 14, 2004 Bil Weiss

Hello and Goodbye
Had a very busy day with a serious auction viewer and just came online within the hour, but will likely not post anyting else - unless someone wants to argue (just kidding!). Glad to see KEN & RICHARD heave-hoing their respective philosophical opinions, and note that at least several of you seem impressed at Ken's writing ability. Once again I might point out that since I urged him to come here, I at least want SOME credit! You ought to see some of the articles he writes about STAMPS, forget this philosophy crap! Now I must rest for tomorrow's tough day of playing poker.

February 14, 2004 Matt Liebson

Brian: I think you have to tell him what he's dealing with and let him decide how quickly he wants to liquidate. The question in the back of my mind is how he could have been in a stamp club all those years and not had some inkling of his material? (of course, hard for me to believe that someone could have been a member of a stamp club for years and still mostly bought from companies like Kenmore and Mystic...)
 

February 14, 2004 David Benson

Nick, I eventually got my answers, although not what expected. Some of their answers I was getting were wrong as they were using wrong information and I could not get through that their answers were incorrect,

signing off for about 4 hours,

David B.

February 14, 2004 David Benson

Nick, you were mentioned in that article I mentioned, although not by name,

David B.

February 14, 2004 David Benson

before I leave,

sold an expensive Liberian stamp yesterday to Russia, he paid by CC within 5 minutes of sale. Ebay has made the world smaller.

David B.

February 14, 2004 03:02 Nick I (lotus194) <nicholas.izzard@ntlworld.com>

Where Am You?
Alison Ruttenberg - Whatever became of you. I so used to enjoy your input into this board and then you were gone, I sincerely hope you are well and still trading. I was in your part of the world recently and would have loved to have grabbed a coffee with you, but forgot to take your email address with me to make any arrangements, maybe next time.

David Benson - Sorry I have not been in touch recently, especially after the hard time you have been getting from some of the posters on this board, I have been so tempted to stand up for you when you got so frustrated when you never got the answers you so wanted concerning ebay. Glad to see you have been leaving me and Addie alone, and dont think it is not appreciated because it is.

Regards

Nick
 

February 14, 2004 David Benson

Dave, thanks, it was sent to me by one of your northern neighbours. Hopefully someone at Ebay will read it and realise their shortcomings.

Heading out in 5 minutes, birthday party at 3pm.

David B.

February 14, 2004 18:56 Dave F. (moderator)

Also, for the record, Bill Longley is Canadian, and self-deprecating humo(u)r is permissable under the Geneva accords.

February 14, 2004 18:51 Dave F. (moderator)

A reminder to all to keep our eyes on the prize.

Paolo: too many to count

David B: Thanks for posting that article. Very helpful and informative. Nice to see this is being written about.


(still involved in other commitments, but near a computer from time to time ...)

February 14, 2004 Paolo Bagaglia

Survey: how many posts did you start and then decided to delete (left "unborn")?
I will begin: about one (1) every day (including those days with no posts from me when I was watching the board) -- Paolo

February 14, 2004 Brian McInturff

Total different question here and it may spur some conversation. An aquaitance in the stamp club that is 77 wants to sell his "collection" and asked me to help him figure what it was worth. Well I drive the 1 plus hours to get there this morning and spend the next 6 hours going through mainly a topical collection. Seems he had been buying from Kenmore and Falcon all these years, oh Mystic also. Lots of countries I assume don't even exist, you know, those you can't pronounce unles you're middle eastern. Nice pretty stamps though. How do I help him with this. Do I tell him his collection is pretty much only worth a half penny per 10 stamps? Is there a market for this stuff? He has like 60 albums of various sizes of this stuff plus 2 file cabinet drawers full. A nice set of DAvo albums in slipcases but all 5 albums only cover 1979-1985, German only and all used. He would've had some nice early items in 2 Regent albums, but every stamp had been hinged with some type of cellaphane type hinge. The hinges glue oxidized a perfect square(hinge mark) through every stamp. The only good part was about 350 dollars in face which I told him he could expect a minimum of 75-80% of face. There's no way he could use it all, he knows his days are numbered. Oh, most of those albums are Kenmore stockbooks. 3 of them were Citation albums. Do I show him how to scan and set him up on ebay? Call a couple of the other local dealers who deal with foreign and let them ggive him the bad news? Or do I tell him and ask him what direction he wants to go.

February 14, 2004 David Benson

Dunkin, Bill,

blame this, blame that, blame him, blame her, blame them, but it's never blame us,

David B.

February 14, 2004 Bill Longley

Blame Canada (southpark episode) was nominated for an Academy Award.
Partial lyrics "Blame Canada.. There not even a real country anyway
Blame Canada, With all their hockey hubbabaloo And that b&*ch Anne Murray too"
 

February 14, 2004 David Benson

Dunkin,

talking about Canada,

there are some interesting comments here about Ebay,

http://www.canadianstampnews.com/inside.html

Maybe KL should send a copy to Dan Neary,

David B.

February 14, 2004 Duncan Doenitz

The object of the proposition

The reason to oppose illegal stamps, forged stamps, or counterfeit sports cards sin't to enrich some fat cats at the top raking off profits, it is to protect collectors. Keep yer eye on the prize.

Bill and Monica and Ken

You gotta be kidding, Ken, you liked that issue? I thought it sucked. On the other hand, if you've got one with a stain on it, you might have something there. People will buy anything on eBay you know.

APS and eBay

I received a lengthy e-mail response from Robert Lamb today, interesting and somewhat encouraging so I'm persuaded that the association may yet prove to be effective. There are some things he couldn't come out and say about specific auctions due to legal reasons, but it was easy enough to read between the lines. He blames Canada.

Dunc

February 14, 2004 Paolo Bagaglia

I sold my most valuable "valentine's covers", therefore can't exhibit it like I did last year on eBay stamp chat (I think, with explanations on the 'definition'). Only a few items, difficulty climbing above 'garbage level', are left. Therefore I'll skip on it and won't cogitate any further comment on the subject.
Anyhow, I do not celebrate (or take in consideration, despite the high pressure from advertisment and media) this recurrency. Paolo
 

February 14, 2004 17:03 Jim Watson

Thanks to David Benson, I can now identify and locate the Sydney suburb of Vaucluse. It was a hole in my February 3 Belgian airmail cover of this morning.

February 14, 2004 prometheus

I like Ken L's Musings
Old Hippies always have an interesting ( not always corect But interesting) Take on the How and why of things.
Too much Jerry Garcia and hazy rooms I tend to Imagine.


Buster Brown All i know about Buster Brown is that it is the Brand of shoe my mother favored when covering my toes in the 1980's

February 14, 2004 Brian McInturff

Ken L. Your the only one here that when I read your postings I'm required to get a dictionary out. Bravo!

February 14, 2004 Jim Whitford-Stark

Brain
Regular respondants get some slack.
Though not much.
:-Þ

February 14, 2004 Chuck Harm

Ken - I am awed by your ability to tie such disparate threads into a coherent single submission.

February 14, 2004 Brian R

Hmmmmm
I guess the really big question then is: Are baco-o-bits prohibited for muslims, or have they been so extensively processed, that they're no longer considered pork?

February 14, 2004 Brian R

Yes, I know....
Only one "p" in apology.....LOL AND, my streak of 100+ posts, where I manage to spell my own name right, has ended :o(

February 14, 2004 Ken Lawrence

Stamps, Letters, Baseball Cards, and Ketchup

Although practical-minded liberal critics of Reagan focused mainly on his attempt to gut the nutritional guidelines for poor children, my lifelong leftist concern was the Orwellian one. What's in the mind matters more than what's in the tummy. That's the significance of ontology and the peril of reification. War is Peace, Ketchup is a Vegetable, and so forth. This is the Gramscian version of hegemony, by which the masses become infused with the world view of their betters and thus are anesthetized intellectually. So you see, I'm as much a Luddite as Richard Warren. Even so, I find myself charmed by his odd conviction that postage stamps have anything whatever to do with letters, and that letters have anything to do with mail. Those were 19th and 20th century relations, which survive only vestigially in today's virtual world. Then there's his belief, which I refuted some months ago, that countries are the recipients of philatelic revenues. Profits on legal stamps sales go to stamp agents, kickbacks go to autocrats, nothing whatever goes to the people. This is the postal and philatelic adaptation of Woody Guthrie's lyric, "Some will rob you with a six-gun, and some with a fountain pen."

Stepping sideways among collectible hobbies, shall I weep for the millionaire sports stars who suffer revenue losses when some rascal counterfeits officially authorized cards bearing their images. Trust me, their are many worthy causes that I support, but the enrichment of proficient athletes isn't on my list. My unwillingness to take up the cause of illegal stamp issues is similarly motivated.

I live in a valley that is populated by many Amish people who drive horse-drawn buggies and who live without electricity and modern conveniences. It's wonderful to reside among prospeous neighbors who hold such convictions, but their lifestyle isn't mine. In a similar way, I'm glad we have Richard here, and I immensely enjoy his sermons. But I remain an incorrigible infidel.

February 14, 2004 Brain R

jeeeez...
My appologies for the horridly spelled post. I hope Jim W/S didn't bite through his tongue.....

February 14, 2004 Bill Longley

Valentines Here is a Canadian valentine cover mailed a bit late (Feb 18) with a poem enclosed,
"When other friends are round thee,
And other hearts are thine,
When other boys have crowned thee,
More fresh and green than mine,
Then think how sad and lonely,
This wretched heart will be,
Which, while it beats, beats only,
Beloved one for thee."

 

February 14, 2004 Brian R

Can anyone provide an example of a stamp (a real one) with ketchup as a theme? It deserves one. what a wonserful condiment. Makes literaly anything palatable. :o)

February 14, 2004 prometheus

More Vintage Cards
In this case I won't show backs all Doanes in the periods of usage.

1. This is a TUCK brand postcard,Art publishers to their Majesties the King and Queen series 200, printed in Germany as were most all early post cards
Sent to Lillian Dwyer in Hollister Mass, from an unknown admirer in Percy N.H. Feb 14 1907
Simple

2. I guess If you wanted to see a VINTAGE Valentine this would have to fit all the mental pictures the words imply
Cupids
To the same Lady liliian from Unknown city in Maine with the note "Guess"

3. The third is an unsigned card to the same Lillian Dwyer in Hollister Mass
FromSeaBrookNH

and the fourth one is to same Lillian from an unknown "lover"
in Ledger Pa all sent in 1907.
Harlot

Just Noticed I have twenty or so to "Lillian" from all over the Northeast
Things that make you go
" HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMmmmmmmmmmmmmmm?"

Was she or Did She, what does it take for one girl to get Valentines from at least 20 different men Back in 1907.
I bet she showed some ankle now and then .

February 14, 2004 Dave P

Ketchup
Ketchup can be a valuable addition to a diet. In particular it is particularly rich in anti-oxidants, amd oddly (and in common with other cooked tomato products) is actually richer in these than an uncooked tomato. I am sure as a kid it was spelt catsup - was that just a Brit thing?

February 14, 2004 Chris

Do Posts Keep Dispearing over at the eBay chatboard?
Some of the postings from the last few days make no sense, so
I am assuming that stuff is being deleted. What was it?

Chris - puzzled in polar coordinates

February 14, 2004 nomad55

"Purple is a fruit"
-- Homer Simpson

(while eating a jelly donut and talking to Lisa)

February 14, 2004 Ken Lawrence

Jim W-S

Yes, I think it's an arrival time/datestamp of the Nuremberg train station post office.

February 14, 2004 Chuck Harm <macalusoharm@sprintmail.com>

David M- the problem was in counting the nutritional value of catsup. Example 1/2 cup tomatoes 25 calories, 3g sugar; 4T catsup 55 calories 12-16g sugar. I think that bypassed the intent of nutritional guidelines. By that logic some ice cream with some sweetened rhubarb could be counted as a vegetable.

David F. - note email address.

February 14, 2004 RW

Dave, thanks for all your trouble on the Showa question. Sorry, I should have been specific. It's the first series, 1937 on, that I had in mind.

February 14, 2004 RW

I'm giving up now, but maybe the best analogy would be - a real stamp to an illegal is like real food to an empty ketchup bottle.

February 14, 2004 13:24 Dave F. (moderator) <dfrick@pacificanalytics.com>

Just a quick drive-by post for the moment ...

Happy Valentine's Day!

Prometheus: Thanks for sharing. Feel free to share more.

others: Also, please feel free to share Valentines-related material.

Richard W: Thanks also for the posts. For some reason, I started recalling my college days in the San Francisco Bay Area.

Also Richard W: I was not able to answer your question re the Showa definitives, so I forwarded it on privately to someone who could answer it. And he came back with a really foundational reply, which I should have known had I thought about it a little longer and not been in a bit of a hurry:

"Not to get into a question of semantics, but the answer to your question depends upon how you define "Showa."

"In the Sakura colour catalog, Issues V, and VI of the Tazawa series are called "Showa" White Paper Rotary Print and "Showa" White Paper Flat Plate Print.

"However, the First Showa Series (1937-1944), with an entirely new set of designs, was followed by the Second Showa Series 1942-1945. The Third Showa Series, issued imperf and often without gum, was issued 1945-1946.

"Three different sets of the so called "New Showa Series" were issued between 1946-1948. The first issue was imperforate, the second issue (1946-1948) was perforate, and the 3rd issue (1948), also perforated, had new designs and dropped the Chrysanthemum motif.

"Which series did you have in mind?"

Chuck H. & Dunc: A little noodling through will occur to figure what is exactly the best thing to do. Also, Chuck, I'm not sure I have your email address. Can you send it to me when you get a chance?

others: I know I owe some email replies back. Apologies for now, but should be able to get back to concentrate later on.
 

February 14, 2004 Richard W

All this talk of the Yellow Kid made me check my few poor sources on Outcault. The little boy with blond ringlets on your card is one of his most famous comic creations, Buster Brown, the dog is his faithful Tige, and the little girl is his sweetheart, Mary Jane.

February 14, 2004 David Moser <stamphick@dospalos.org>

david

February 14, 2004 Richard W

Reminds me. Talking of witty illegals, I did once see a Conquest-produced sheet for Kyrgyzstan featuring famous mafia bosses ...

February 14, 2004 Chris

UN collections
Jim Watson Thanks for the info. I'd wondered if there was disillusionment with the
UN about then.

Chris - disillusioned about the UN now

February 14, 2004 Chris

Ketchup As A Vegetable
David Moser The Ketchup Is A Vegetable kerfurffle dates back to the Reagan administration.
For purposes of federally subsidized school lunches, ketchup was ruled a vegetable course.
(The lunch must meet certain standards to be elligible for the federal subsidy.)
Thus a hotdog with ketchup met the requirement for a protein, a starch and a vegetable,
instead of having to add carrot sticks or something.

Chris - seemed a tempest in a teapot to me, but the left sure got its shorts in a twist over it

February 14, 2004 Jim Whitford-Stark

Ken
Cancel can be seen here next to black circled 12.
Unfortunately it is pretty weak.

February 14, 2004 David Moser

David

February 14, 2004 Ken Lawrence

Jim W-S

Yes. On-board German railway (bahnpost) cancels are oval, but yours should be a station cancel.

February 14, 2004 11:30 Jim Watson

It was about that time that I gave up trying to keep up with the UN (US new issues as well). I believe that there was also some disillusionment with the UN in its approach to the settlement of the Viet Nam war. I think the idealism went out of the crusade about then. There may well have been other events which led to abandonment of UN postal emissions by collectors, as well.

February 14, 2004 Ken Lawrence

Outcault stamp
Richard W,

Tom Lehrer retired as a performing artist many years ago, quipping on his way out the door that political satire became impossible when they awarded Henry Kissinger the Nobel Peace Prize.

Which will be more appropriate? The commemorative stamps for Kissinger certain to be issued by Sweden and several dozen legal countries that will never have heard of him, or an infringement of his image on a fantasy stamp ostensibly issued by some breakaway enclave that owes its arms to the supply slipped in on K's watch a generation ago?

At least we can appreciate that Sweden honored Joe Hill on an appropriate postal issue, coopting much of the anachists' critique. But will a Cayes of Belize stamp for Henry be more a noble and desirable collectible than one labeled Chechnya, or perhaps Birobidzhan?

February 14, 2004 Jim Whitford-Stark

Thanks Ken.
What I have appears to be Nurnberg Bahnh.
So I assume Nuremberg Station.

February 14, 2004 Ken Lawrence

Jim W-S
Bahnhof is train station.

February 14, 2004 prometheus

Back From the 100th Fla state fair
Had a ggod time weather was 68 and the light rain did not start till we were finished.
The only thing I was disappointed in was the Historic Display
They had put up for the 100th.
I had earlier by 15 years and better postcards than the Historical group could gather from all the locals.
felt bad am sending the head of the group some scans of what they could have displayed, They never answered my emails or Letter because I am not a "member " of the society and I am kinda ypoung.

I guess personal satisfaction is sometimes the only reward in this hobby.

If anyone wants to see more Vintage Valentines let me Know.
I have lots.
Will return in a couple of hours a cold front is coming and that means fish for dinner,
They all head to the Power Plant outflow.

February 14, 2004 Jim Whitford-Stark

German question for anyone.
What does Bahnh mean?
It is a part of a placename.
Babelfish is no help.

February 14, 2004 Ken Lawrence

To the podium from the ranks

Richard W,

I don't collect any of this stuff, nor have I seen any that I regard as worthy to collect except for the Groucho Marx and John Lennon miniature sheet of Abkhazia, which succeeds as satire only because it pretends to emanate from a former Soviet republic.

I am reporting on the new social order and analyzing it, not celebrating it. Perhaps you are unaware that in this country the Postal Service's mail handlers frequently fail to recognize the validity of genuine postage stamps (unfamiliar to them party because adhesive stamps are obsolete and partly because the most interesting ones are sold exclusively to stamp collectors, rarely at post offices), causing properly franked letters to be returned to their senders or rated postage due to be collected on delivery. At the same time, almost any mundane sticker applied to a letter alongside a smidgeon of phosphored paper selvage to fool the automated facer-canceler will breeze through to its destination unhampered. This truly extinguishes the distinction between legal and illegal stamps, if not between food and original gum. Perhaps you are unaware that U.S. President Ronald Reagan designated ketchup a vegetable suitable for schoolchildren's nutrition programs more than two decades ago.

My debate with you is political, not esthetic. If the world's legal stamp agents and their illegal imitators massacre one another, perhaps the anarchist's prayer concerning the last priest and the last bureaucrat will be realized for stamp collectors. Naturally, I'm not that optimistic, but it is clear to me that the pirates will at some point press their obvious advantage, which I attempted to explicate in my previous post. That's what goes, see?

To my surprise, our debate is also economic, because as long as I have been a stamp writer (my first articles in Linn's are old enough to vote) I have decried collecting as investment.

Meanwhile, I'm gratified that none of the tears shed for Redonda's stampmongers have moved the APS leadership to join the Afinsa billionaire heir's plea, expensively packaged and posted from Monte Carlo, urging us to join the holy crusade against illegals. (In a separate letter he commanded that stamp catalogs never lower values, which was deemed so wise that the FIP reprinted it as a Flash centerfold.) Is membership in this club the typical fate of middle-aging anarchists?

Yes, Fredy Perlman produced your copy of Debord, literally by his own hands, on an enormous ancient Harris offset press, a folder set to a page size matching no standard, manually collated, stitched, and trimmed. To properly honor Black & Red you should read Fredy's greatest book, titled The Incoherence of the Intellectual.

Being a writer, I live or starve by copyright enforcement (my proudest work is currently being infringed by Ancestry.com, an alliance of AOL, Microsoft, and the Mormon church, causing my annual royalty check for that work to plummet from more that $1,000 two years ago to less that $100 last year), yet I have sufficient respect for pirates to acknowledge that part of the reason for Mark Twain's eminence in the world is because so many thieves reproduced and propagated his greatest writing.

A valentine for you, too!

February 14, 2004 Brian R

All of it was over control of the illegal liquor trade (during prohibition).
What will be the end result of our sucessful prohibition of altered/illegal stamps?
Will suspicious charachters start hanging around palygrounds,
uttering things like, "psssst, hey kid, wanna buy some neato dinosaur stamps from Wheretheheckistan?"
Will people be secreting "speak easy bourses" to buy trimmed imperfs and bathtub overprints?
We need to ponder these things before we produce a vast underground.
 

February 14, 2004 Dave Coleman <orstampman at aol dot com>

Thanks again, Ken, for helping me with Scott #703. I had read the Scott specialized note about the two plate formats, but didn't realize the paper orientation was different between them (it wasn't explicitly mentioned in Scott - I suppose the reference to having two plate "formats" implies different "orientation".). DaveC... always looking to learn...

February 14, 2004 Jim Whitford-Stark

Mileage
Paul B
Until it recently had a school built, the kids in Terlingua used to ride the bus to Alpine 75 miles each way, 5 days per week for the approximately 30 week school year. That amounts to about 21,000 miles per year.

February 14, 2004 17:10 CET Paul B.

Car Dealerships
Chris Haven't had that many experiences with car dealers. Our current 2½ year old Volkswagen Lupo TDI 3L hasn't needed any extraordinary attention on that part (knock on wood). I'm actually surprised that an annual service inspection is enough each approximately 10.000 miles, which we BTW have performed in Latvia each summer at an authorized VW dealership for one third of the cost we otherwise should have paid in our own country.

BTW Chris. Found another car with the same low energy consumption (3 liters of gasoil/diesel on 100 kilometers). There's an Audi A2 TDI 3L out there with the same performance as the Volkswagen TDI 3L. I've checked the Audi USA website, the smallest model they offer is an Audi A4 - and we've got Audi A3 and A2's as well over here. The Audi A2 TDI 3L is also a microcar - with 5 doors, where the Volkswagen TDI 3L only has 3 doors.

February 14, 2004 Chris

Assault Rifles And Car Dealerships
Paul B. There have been a couple of occasions where taking an assault rifle
to the car dealership would have seemed like a really good idea.

Chris - I hope car dealers in Denmark are better than here

February 14, 2004 Richard W

Waxing lyrical, I forgot to say - are you sure about the copyright situation re the "US artists"? As far as I know, no illegals producer has yet bothered to deal with the artists whose work they feature. All their sources are scanned or downloaded without reference to anyone who may have ownership of that image. A romantic, piratical approach to copyright is all very well until you are the ripped-off party.

February 14, 2004 Chris

A Question That Is Puzzling Me
I have purchased a number of New York UN collections. They were quite complete up until about 1972 or so,
and then ended sharply. Collections of Vienna and Geneva seem to be harder to find. The Geneva stamps
start in 1969, the Vienna stamps start in 1979.

What I'm really wondering about is why the UN was widely collected up to about 1972 and then not.
Was there a change in public perception of the UN at that point?

Chris - turns out year sets aren't that expensive for the European offices

February 14, 2004 RW

Thanks, Bill. I understand. Just trying to back track to figure out how I did that ...

February 14, 2004 Paolo Bagaglia

Tracking bad auctions > fakes and forgeries
I sympathize with the idea of Dave F. and others and would be willing to offer my help, when needed.
As a disclaimer, or as a condition, I would like to underline that I am not a collector of forgeries, therefore lack of an adequate specialised literature on each and every topic in my area of interest (which, like that expressed by other board participants, does not include USA) in order to satisfy eventual e-mail questions of this type "OK Thanks for reporting this item of mine is a forgery. But who made it, how and when was it made and what was the printer's socks colour that day?"
These can be the difficult details to be detected from a simple, small or normal sized, scanned image.
By saying this I do not want to diminish the importance, or the usefullness, of collecting forgeries and deep specialisations thereof; when, for example, it is made in the way and with the noble purposes of diffusion of information Bill C. and others did with their web-sites it can only deserve encomium.
I just want to say that I am only interested in and can tell apart genuine postage stamps from forgeries or fakes in my area of interest in most cases. This already required a heavy burden of literature in my philatelic library which is continuously getting adjourned and enlarged, esbourses of large (for my budget) entity to get genuine copies and specialisation thereof, and an electronic archive of known dangerous forgeries or fakes.
Kind regards, Paolo

February 14, 2004 Richard Warren

I've just noticed that my translation of Debord was published by Black & Red in Detroit in 1970. Was that your friend? Well, it's not every day you can have a conversation going from Outcault to philately to situationist theory. Happy Valentine's Day!

February 14, 2004 15:59 CET Paul B. <philaweb at (remove) yahoo dot dk>

Firearms, hunting season topic
Saw the posts on firearms on the other chat, reminded me of something I experienced this week. This monday I visited out local Volkswagen dealer for some casual browsing. As we stood there chatting about new models etc., a guy in military battle dress turned up with a M/95 semi-automatic assault rifle over the shoulder. Well, we have something called "Hjemmeværnet" (Home Guard), which is similar to the National Guard (weekend warriors). Normally, they come in groups when in uniform and they normally use Volkswagen vans since they are standard vehicles in our armed forces. But, he was alone and in a private unmarked car. He was very distinct in his tone of voice and wanted to complain about a deal someone at the dealership had made with him. Hmm, talking about firearms being total illegal for everyone else in our country....

February 14, 2004 06:45 Bill Claghorn (claghorn1p) http://www.geocities.com/claghorn1p/
 

romance links fixed
Richard Warren your links refer to images on your local hard drive rather than your web site. It will work fine on that computer but on no others. You uploaded the images but had hard links to your local drive.

February 14, 2004 Richard Warren

fixed links
Bill C - thanks!! Didn't realise anything had gone wrong. Posted them, tried them myself, seemed ok. What did I miss?

February 14, 2004 06:13 Bill Claghorn (claghorn1p) http://www.geocities.com/claghorn1p/
 

romance links fixed
Richard Warren

Here are your fixed links:

romance

romance2

February 14, 2004 Chuck Harm

Ebay/APS
Its taken me a while to catch up on the board on this issue. I offer my attempt at synthesizing the information and some of my conclusions below.

It appears that the desired process is as follows:

If one sees a misdescribed stamp one should first attempt to contact the seller and resolve the issue in that fashion. If that is unsuccessful it should then be reported to ebay and the process will be initiated. If it is passed on by ebay it then goes to the review committe and if two members agree that it is problematic it goes to the APS for a review and recommendation of action to ebay.

My reaction upon considering this process is that it is not one that will be very successful in handling individual listing problems and in fact from Ken's comments that is not the expectation of APS as to its utility. The uncertainty of the process and the short duration available makes it impossible to address auctions consistently in real time. As Ken has stated it is intended to address repetitive problematic offenders. To do this clearly does not require that every listing be addressed but that over time thier business is impacted. One would hope that the reaction of ebay and the stamp committee would become more aggressive as multiple reports are made of a given seller and that the frequency and speed of action would increase. I think there is some evidence of this but it is not entirely clear.

Given this I think we need to change our expectations of a result on each identified lot. I do not believe it is possible with the existing process. While we can argue to change the process to a better one I think we should try and get the maximum bang from the buck for the progress made so far.

I think the best behavior would be to focus on the more frequent offenders and really watch thier auctions carefully and report aggressively. Essentially apply the 80/20 rule - 80% of the problems are caused by 20% of the offenders. This might also allow the investigation of whether ebay is protecting PowerSellers. Ken I do not know if it would be useful to forward information to APS if we can document a pattern of ebay not forwarding complaints on a particular seller. Would the APS be willing to have the discussion with ebay? Otherwise if data can be gathered there is always the opportunity to go to the press. This has been the method of getting action from ebay in the past.

Finally I believe there are issues related to the quantity of staff and range of expertise on the review committees. I think there are several members of this board and I am sure members of this bboard know additional individuals who are qualified to be review committee members. How do people offer thier expertise to be on these committees?

As always these are my opinions - your mileage may vary.

February 14, 2004 Ken Lawrence

Pro

Printed matter rate, Yes (domestic mail of the third class).

Your Outcault card could make a fine showpiece for any number of topical-thematic exhibit title pages. From his first strip The Yellow Kid came the perjorative idiom yellow journalism, subsequently reified by being printed on yellow paper literally, today pervasive on the Internet absent all three formerly required ingredients: yellow, paper, and journalism.

Richard Warren, this Yellow Kid dialectic is where we came in, I think, surely an exemplar for Society of the Spectacle. As postage stamps cheapen and postal systems crumble in the Global Age of the Least Bid, look for illegal stamps to take their place as more refined collectibles. Today's mass producers of illegals display only occasional flashes of inspiration, such as the Clinton-Lewinsky parody, while the rest of their products are typically poor copycats. But mark my words, as the glut of useless stamps from so-called legal countries nears saturation, someone with an eye to quality will seize the opportunity. Already several U.S. artists have become celebrities for their superior illegal stamp designs, after the government tried in vain to stop them. Their products are now expensive underground neo-classics among sophisticated collectors, including one prominent respected philatelic journalist. Call them Outcault stamps next time you mount the podium; it harmonizes with outlaw.

February 14, 2004 Jim Lawler

Jim L.

February 14, 2004 Richard W

If anything, these
are even groovier ...

 

February 14, 2004 Ken Lawrence

Dave Coleman

Your stamps are well documented. Scott 703, the bicolor 2¢ Yorktown issue, was printed in two plate formats, as the Scott Specialized catalog states. The 100-subject plates were printed on paper with vertical grain, shrinking horizontally. The 50-subject plates were printed on paper with horizontal grain, shrinking vertically. The differences in measurement thus result from the same cause as the 1928 special booklet paper printings. I once made a collection of these differences on first day covers, including plate number blocks of each variety.

Gary Griffith's book explains: "After printing several million of these stamps the printers decided they would have less waste if they added the black vignettes 50 at a time instead of 100 at a time. . . Stamps from the second printing are slightly wider than stamps from the first printing, because of the direction of the paper grain, which was horizontal. Stamps from the second printing are not found with straight edges."

February 14, 2004 Richard W

Nice cards. I don't know a lot about American comics, but didn't Outcault do the "Yellow Kid"? A great strip.

February 14, 2004 Richard Warren

Hope they don't take too long to load.

 

February 14, 2004 04:21 Jim Watson

I didn't get a cover posted yesterday but the one I was preparing for the day turned out to be from February 3. So here is a 'freebie.' This cover was sent from Belgium to Australia 1938. It was forwarded to Noumea from Watson's Bay. (Guess why I liked it. LOL!).

February 14, 2004 Dave Coleman <orstampman at aol dot com>

Thanks, DaveC

February 14, 2004 Roger Heath

Email Title from Germany
I thought every one would like to see an email subject title I received from Germany this evening.

=?utf-8?Q?Re:_eBay_Artikel_1900:=C3=82_Kondolen?= =?utf

It took good eyes to pick that out of the 52 accompanying spam messages. I'm going to apply for the Ebay relay job when the ad appears on the EbayChat Board. "Wanted: quick eyes able to distinguish authentic items from a list of junk (err, low value items)."
I actually prefer the current vogue of two or three real words in the subject line of spam. I have a pretty good idea of subject titles most likely to arrive for me, as opposed to the random selection of words spam contains. At least someone has generated lists of interesting literate words. I've been using some of them in my posts recently. @???!!>
Roger
 

February 13, 2004 Duncan Doenitz

Another 1928 booklet paper stamp

The one on the right is a booklet paper version of #563.

Notice how it looks more wide and stubby. Just like some of our Chat Board members.

Dunc

------------------->{{{*>

February 13, 2004 Duncan Doenitz

Tracking bad auctions

Dave F and others thanks for initiating plan to track auctions, and especially Dave for the tip on how to save a web page as a single file.

For now I'll save a scan of bad auctions I report, a dated copy of the report to eBay, and a shot of any auctions that run to completion, plus a summary page listing the auction sellers, auction numbers, nature of the problem, closing date and results. Does that sound like it will work? I've been meaning to do a better job of documenting this stuff anyway. It might simplify the job for anyone who coordinates this information if all they receive initially is a summary but however it gets done count me in of course.

Roger Wells A special thanks for you for providing the initial push to get this started. I've also recommended more than once to the APS that they do a simple test of their own to get an idea of how many reports actually get forwarded to them. I simply urged them to initiate some reports of bad auctions and see what happens.

Prometheus Nice Valentine with the football theme. "If you will only be my goal I know that I shall score..." That'd look good on a tacky T-shirt.

Dave Coleman Lets discuss the 1928 booklet printings. Check your e-mail. At the APS Stamp Store, Scott #566 lot number 101405465 looks like it is on booklet paper.

Dunc

----------->{{{*>

February 13, 2004 prometheus

More Vintage Valentines
here are a couple of Vintage cards
1913
and you guessed it a doane hepburn

here's another a Sad Valentine Sad
It too is just a common in the middle dates of use Doane.

February 13, 2004 prometheus

Printed matter rate Flag
Am I correct in saying that this is (envelope with YMCA membership forms) Unsealed cover is Printed (media) Matter rate.
Tornstamp
 

February 13, 2004 prometheus

Not politically kerwrecked
This card is also a throw back
Injun
I do not think the terms would make it in the market place today.

On the Back is what I think is an Unknown Doane But
Maybe not enuf for positive affirmation MadgeKy

February 13, 2004 prometheus

Some Vintage Valentines
I have more than a thousand
But I like the backs not the pretty fronts
Here are a couple I bought for the backs .

Here is a nice early valentine, Using the Football (US Style) Theme, By a Famous Artist, Outcault.

I picked it up for the cancel of course. And it has the 13th and the 14th noted on it.
Doane
This card is an example of a card that was once 5 bucks But it ended up in the quarter box The front is not exactly pristine.
Just Like the Stamp world the Postcard collector has changed and now they want them as close to Mint never hinged as possible.

Here is a Valentine Cancel just for those that bought the new Doane book
Minorcorrection
Add seven months to the usage of this one. In your book.

February 13, 2004 Paolo Bagaglia

Jim (jaywild), Rob F., Victor H., Dave F., David B. and Chris:
Thanks for your kind posts! I share your feelings; deep regret and doubt with uncertainty of life. Things that should have been said, admiration and precious pieces of advice lost forever along with that warm feeling, the security, the reference point of the family.
But my father's and mother's death did not help my maturation, at least I don't think so.
Think it made me more insecure and diffident than what I was or of how was I ever to come out from the teenage. Perhaps because I am the only son.

Jim(jaywild): I am sorry to hear of your recent loss! Please let me add my sincere sympathies.

Kind regards to all, Paolo (over and out)
 

February 13, 2004 18:05 Dave F. (moderator)

Bill C: You can go to the link above, entitled "eBay guidelines for selling stamps". Once that page opens, there is a link in small type at the bottom of the page called "Report listing violations or problems with another eBay member."

I just now double-checked it and it worked for me.

BBL again

February 13, 2004 prometheus

Nomad Already saved Image ( i save lots of images)
I guess I'll have to get a "bomar " soon.
I have 700 PPIE cancels on cards
I have stopped buying them and have lately been scouring the boxes for the St Louis 04 (o3) Marks .

I also added this new one this past weekend.
MilwaukeeExpo

February 13, 2004 18:00 Bill Claghorn (claghorn1p) http://www.geocities.com/claghorn1p/
 

SCWG link
D2

eBay changed the web link for reporting misdescribed stamps. Would you be so kind as to refresh me on how to report misdescribed stamps? Thanks.

February 13, 2004 17:53 Dave F. (moderator)

Valentine's Day
NOIP: Tomorrow (or today in some places a little further up the clock) is Valentine's Day. I know that there is some great philatelic material out there from way back when that commemorates the day. If anyone would like to take this as a heads-up and rifle around through their stuff to find and scan some of it, feel free to start sharing it in the next dozen hours or so!

I believe we can keep several topics going at once, so it is not meant to interfere with any other subject matter.


Jim W-S: You're right, and good point. I totally forgot to consider that angle.
 

February 13, 2004 nomad55

Pro
This style slogan is known only used 2 days, 15 and 16 July 1912. A possibility exists for July 17, but no cancels with that date are known.
Here's were you need to invest in the appropriate literature so as to identify the subtle varieties and types in expo slogan cancels.
The pictured cancel's characteristics:
(1) state abbreviated ORE
(2) the horizontal killer bars are intact and not broken
(3) in the slogan, the "1" in 1915 is located directly under the "F" of FRANCISCO

In order to be the rare type, all three characteristics must be present, and the date must be 15 or 16 (and maybe 17) July 1912.

Why not capture the picture, convert it to a bit map and enlarge. Then you will have a good reference copy.

February 13, 2004 prometheus

Nomad?
The style of the portland cancel or the PORTLAND cancel.
 

February 13, 2004 nomad55

Expo news
5th example of this Portland slogan known. I think the price is a tad bit high. As I said a week or so ago, those bulk Patkin expo lots were searched and picked before being listed.

And be careful if considering this seller. I give him credit for saying "replica" and that the reverse is marked as such.

February 13, 2004 Jim Whitford-Stark

Dave F
Yep, having them in "favorites" would work but you would physically have to go to every auction just to see what it was doing.

With "my eBay" you can access all the information for 30 auctions simultaneously.
BTW, I have 2 ID's not being used at the moment.
Maybe we could divy up the reported countries such that one person kept track of US, another of UK, etc.
Then these all reported their findings to the person with the database.

February 13, 2004 15:37 Dave F. (moderator)

Jim W-S: I hadn't thought of that, but couldn't one get around that problem by either just setting up a little folder in one's "favorites" in their web browser and then capturing the link that way? (since the auction number doesn't change over the life of the auction). I'm thinking about this from the perspective of the "reporter/tracker", as opposed to the "data consolidator".

From the consolidator's perspective, I know that the database program I often use is enabled in such a way that it correctly detects urls in a field and makes them "clickable". I believe (but am not entirely sure) that the same is true with Excel.

Hopefully this means that people would not need to create alternative eBay id's for this purpose, but, since a number of people seem to anyway, I suppose that would not be so bad. (I remember establishing my original id on eBay as being so painful and complicated that I've never done it again since, although I believe it is now much easier than it used to be, unless one intends to sell. I also went through that $10 charge that Bob L. mentioned a few weeks ago.)

BBL

February 13, 2004 Jim Whitford-Stark

Dave F
Even if you store the information in a database program, the "tracker" would also need to be able to access the auction quickly.
The only way to do that is to have the link stored in "my eBay".
To have links stored in database would be cumbersome.

February 13, 2004 David Benson

Ken, Maybe Dan Neary should have discussions with his counterpart on Ebay.UK who at least has stated that they should only be listed under the Cinderalla category,

David B.

February 13, 2004 David Benson

Ken, thanks,

I thought with the arrangement that Ebay has with APS they would prefer to rely on the Philatelic expertise of the APS and not of an individual of Ebay who might not realise the implications of collecting and/or reselling of computer generated material.



David B.

 

February 13, 2004 Victor Horadam

Bill W: I was just wondering, I wasn't going to sell it or buy it. I found one in my collection going through a bunch of older issues, with an old newpaper article about it attached. It is a beautiful copy, except for the pin perfs, I will add it to my regular collection if I ever find it again.

February 13, 2004 Victor Horadam

Ken L: Thanks for the answer. Someone else had said on the other board that US postal forgeries made prior to 1972 were legal to own, but I wanted to know as well as I could. Thanks again.

February 13, 2004 Bill Weiss

Forgery
VICTOR H; I am not 100% certain if it is technically legal to own a postal forgery, but for practical purposes you certainly may. They are reguarly offered in public auctions - properly described - and based on my experience, they are reasonably popular and collectible. I believe the one you refer to is known as the "Boston" counterfeit, and I have seen these sell for up to $50. for a single, although $15. is a more accurate price because they are not scarce.

KEN L; My thanks for your clarifications here.

My understanding is that of the foreign stamps being vetted by the SWC, the primary culprits are overprinted stamps - suprise! I think the problem is, as Ken suggested, that no one expert has vast knowledge in more than a few countries. This is something which will need to be addressed in the future.

February 13, 2004 02.44 pm Colin Judd http://mysite.freeserve.com/xzephyr_stamps
 

Colin

February 13, 2004 Ken Lawrence

David Benson

Dan Neary sees nothing wrong with selling properly described and marked computer generated copies of stamps on eBay. Unless he is persuaded to change his mind, which I failed to do, the two organizations' policies diverge on this issue.

February 13, 2004 Ken Lawrence

Victor Horadam

Yes, it is legal to own. That is not a legal opinion, but it is a practical fact, verified for me by the appropriate authorities.

February 13, 2004 David Benson

Ken, now for something entirely different,

The APS has now voted to disallow computer generated items (I didn't call them stamps on purpose) from it's Stampstore, has there been any thought about them being listed on Ebay,

David Benson

 

February 13, 2004 David Benson

Ken, thanks, I understand the problems regarding checking material and of course it is easier for the APS checkers to do it with the actual material instead of poor scans (some extremely poor, possibly on purpose) as it is sometimes impossible to identify printing methods and minor variations without examining the item personally.

David Benson

 

February 13, 2004 Chris

Paolo My sympathies on this sad anniversary.
Losing a parent is one sadness that time does not diminish.

Chris

February 13, 2004 14:27 Dave F. (moderator)

Ken: It seems to me that your proposal is an excellent one. It's almost mind-blowing in its elegance and potential effectiveness. I hope that the continued relationship between the APS and eBay allows eBay to eventually be open to such a suggestion. It would address many issues simultaneously. I appreciate that things like this take time, and so will keep my fingers crossed.

February 13, 2004 Ken Lawrence

David Benson

I have no say in the composition of the SCWG, so I cannot give you any assurance whatever, but I believe the answer to your question is Yes, everyone has desired that from the beginning. The trouble is, the world is a very large place, and eBay includes nearly all of it.

Here is a situation that may be analogous: The APS Sales Division sends sales books that contain problematic material to experts in the particular field before releasing them to members for purchase. The staff knows which countries and types of stamps are often faked, but they are not experts. Each month each volunteer examiner gets the consignments in his/her area of expertise. Fakes are pulled, documented, and set aside. The rest of the book is then circulated with other books to buyers on circuits. After 18 months (sooner if every stamp sells), the books are retired and the owners are paid for the material sold. From the sales total APS deducts and keeps a commission, insurance, fee, return postage amount, and fines ($1 or $2 for each fake or misdescribed stamp which is returned, determined by its retail price).

To do this well, APS has a large number of examiners. This system won't work for the SCWG, because each examiner is expert in just one or two countries, or even in just one or two of a country's stamp issues.

I have proposed to eBay that the APS examiner system might work better as a model than the SCWG, and that fining repeat offenders might be a better remedy than the choices currently offered. Whether our system could be adapted to eBay is beyond my knowledge, but I am as frustrated by the current system as anyone when I report a flagrant violator and see no action taken.

February 13, 2004 14:15 Dave F. (moderator)

My moderator-instinct suggests that I should restate my intention to take the high road, remove all emotional language from my posts, and to make my points as factually as possible.

I ask as many participants as possible who can find it within themselves to do so to do so.

February 13, 2004 14:12 Dave F. (moderator)

Ken: Thanks for your comments. I do agree with you that courtesy would suggest that a seller be contacted first. The problem has been with recalcitrant sellers whom one has contacted in the past.

I know that I have contacted sellers in the past, have waited several days for an eventual response that says "thanks", no action is taken, the clock runs out on the auction, and then it goes on to the winning bidder. I personally have experienced numerous instances of this, and I know that others have experienced the same thing. For a seller without the best of intentions, there is a reverse-incentive to take no action.

But, since the problem is one doesn't know at the outset into which category a seller with a troublesome auction falls, then perhaps one solution is that the seller is contacted the first time a questionable auction is noted, and the results of that interaction are tracked. If that means that particular auction goes without action being taken, well, that's what was going to happen anyway without someone's intervention. And if it was a non-systematic error from a conscientious seller, then presumably another auction from that seller would not be likely to hit the radar screen again soon. Over a little bit of time, that would help eliminate the conscientious seller, and a pattern would tease out the less-conscientious seller. (I'm not articulating this at the keyboard as well as I'm hearing it in my mind.)

I also heartily agree with you that the study must include non-US (to sound nationalistic: "foreign") material. For many of us, we have a speciality where we would be only able to look a particular country or set of countries anyway.

On a different subject, I am also a satisfied customer from the APS store in the past. (I haven't acquired any material from any source recently.) For the record, the link to them is:

http://www.stampstore.org/

February 13, 2004 Victor Horadam <horadam1@airmail.net>

general
I recently saw one of the old postal forgeries of the 2 cent red W-J series. It is mint, but pin-type perfs, not a recent forgery. Is this legal to own?

February 13, 2004 David Benson

Ken, sorry, posted before I saw your second comment.

It sounds like no one at the APS has the answer to that question and that it is a question that will have to be asked to Ebay.

David B.

 

February 13, 2004 David Benson

Bill, thanks, Ken has corrobarated your statement and thanks for your comments about the misunderstanding of earlier comments.

Ken, thanks for your comments, it helps immensely to know that the SWC is handling all material irrespective of it being US or not. You state that the SWCG often hasn't got sufficient expertise to handle the queries, has there been any thought of increasing the number of members.

Would it also be possible if you could answer my other quesion about whether it is for material listed on the US site or includes material that is available to the US but listed on non US sites,

David B.

February 13, 2004 Ken Lawrence

Bill Weiss

You are correct. I answered the question about foreign eBay sites fully last night, and as predicted, my answer has been misrepresented by the usual suspect. Does anyone wonder why nearly every APS leader enjoys participating on the VSC Message Board, while I'm the only one who has submitted to the treatment with which an APS leader is greeted here?

Asterisks added for emphasis:

"Only eBay knows which complaints, *from which eBay venues*, get forwarded to the Stamp Community Watch Group. No one from APS can answer the question more fully than that, and eBay claims not to have any mechanism to retrieve these data. I have stated that before, both publicly and in private e-mail."

February 13, 2004 Ken Lawrence

Dave F

I don't know whether eBay has stated officially (whatever that means) that sellers should be contacted first to achieve a solution, but it is what eBay expects anyone with intelligence and common courtesy would do. I have that on Dan Neary's authority, and I believe it myself. I have been doing it personally as long as eBay has existed, even though I'm not much of an eBay user. No one instructed me about it, but in almost every case, the seller was grateful to be told of her/his mistake. The first one I ever contacted turned out to be Bill Helbock, who was selling an Alaska Doane cancel with an impossibly early date for the 1-cent Franklin stamp of 1908. He had not noticed the stamp replacement because he was selling the cancel.

Also, be sure to include foreign. Contrary to the continued intentional twisting of my words on this board that I predicted last night, eBay does accept reports on misdescribed stamps worldwide, and does forward at least some of those reports to the SCWG. But everyone involved agrees that there is often insufficient expertise among that group regarding many countries, and that sometimes it is impossible to secure the two opinions that trigger the APS inspection.

I wish you well with this project, and I'll be pleased to assist with it.

February 13, 2004 Bill Weiss

DAVE FRICK; Thank you very much for your confidence in my word. May I also respectfully suggest that if I was wrong in what I have said, don't you think that KEN L. would say so here? You bet he would. Further, if I am wrong, I would WANT to be corrected. My only intent is to clarify this if I can. I obviously misunderstood some of what I posted from earlier quotes about foreign material. It appears that when the answers were given about this program not being of worldwide scope, that those references were to foreign SITES, not to foreign MATERIAL. I now understand the distinction and I hope we can move on from here. Personally, I am pleased that foreign material IS vetted, which is the primary concern posted here. Of course, that may not suit some. Changing that can become their main priority if they like. I am content for now.

February 13, 2004 Ken Lawrence

Dave Coleman

I have previously posted a report on the 1928 United States special (booklet) paper printings of sheet stamps, including denominations so printed, and references for further study available from the American Philatelic Research Library. Please scroll down to my earlier posts on this subject.

February 13, 2004 Brian McInturff

Dave I'll help however I can.

February 13, 2004 13:34 Dave F. (moderator)

And Christo, thanks for the original link to the penguin-whacking! I'd never had an interest in playing a computer-based game before, but genuinely enjoyed that one.

And thanks to the person (Marius?), who posted the golf game. (I found that one more frustrating, but that's also what I've found with real-time golf, too.)

Both were welcome respites both to the board and to me personally!

February 13, 2004 Ken Lawrence

Roger Heath

I hope when the time comes to sell your collection, you'll consider selling it through APS Stampstore. That's where buyers can be assured that all sales are fully in accord with the APS Code of Ethics.

Everyone here should recall that in the current arrangement, APS and eBay are competitors, the world's largest Internet stamp marketplaces, and that the APS advantage is guaranteed integrity in every transaction.

February 13, 2004 Christo van Zyl

Dave F (moderator): I have been away for five days and it has taken me a while to catch up to the last days postings. It certainly have been more voluminous than in the preceding couple of months.

I can only empathise/commisserate (sorry about the spelling Jim W-S!) with your efforts in moderating this board. I don't think any of us have any real idea what effort (and maybe self control?) it took to keep it going.

All I required from this board was to learn from others and ask advice about certain issues (e.g. cat no, fake or forged, common or not and help with listing stamps in the correct categories). And also meet people sharing in the smae interests.

I don't know how you have kept your sanity with some of the discussions on this board. All the heckling, disregard for others feeling, absence of people skills, people showing no tact in their discussions with/about others etc.

I can only wish that this new record keeping venture of yours is successfull. But from the posting already coming in, I guess that will be an impossible task to complete. Maybe one should ask Michael W first whether he cannot help in giving some advice on how to proceed with this?

To those of you remaining, I can only implore.. please think abouth what you have written before you press that submit button! To those nice guys who have always been helpful and who always showed patience in helping... thanks. I'll try and keep in touch occasionally with more questions via email.

February 13, 2004 1:16 Dave F. (moderator)

David B: Respectfully, I would ask that we assume that Bill knows what he's talking about, and to not state publicly how he knows that (for the reasons I indicated before).

My overall point is that the focus should be on understanding what eBay does with the information it is given. If it doesn't have the staff to handle the level of complaints it receives, then that is a business decision it is faced with. I did note today that eBay says on its website that it carefully evaluates every complaint.

February 13, 2004 David Benson

Dave, it may be best to contact Ebay and report ofending items without contacting seller. That would speed up action and in most cases that I know of the seller ignores trhe emails anyway,

David B.

February 13, 2004 David Benson

Bill, thanks, I don't give up especially if someone says they know something but can't prove it,

BYE,

David B.

February 13, 2004 13:10 Dave F. (moderator)

David B: Agreed about the seller question. That's why I asked the question, "what does eBay say to do about an auction that appears to violate its guidelines?".

If eBay says to contact the seller, then that's what would be done first, and the seller's actions or inactions noted, and then a determination as to whether to report the auction to eBay.

Personally, I don't recall eBay ever suggesting that the seller be contacted first, unless one was seriously interested in entering a bid, or had already entered a bid and/or the auction had already come to a close.

An important distinction to what Ken L. mentioned with regard to APS-member disputes is that in those cases, presumably a transaction was either proposed or had occurred, and again, one that takes place between two APS members. Discussion between the parties is entirely the first and most appropriate course of action, because there is already a history between those two parties. The situation with eBay is structurally different.

If I begin to sound cryptic at some point, again, I think it would be best to determine the overall soundness of the concept, select people interested in helping out, and discussing the particulars elsewhere.

February 13, 2004 Bill Weiss

DAVID; You just don't give up, do you? I'm done talking for now.

February 13, 2004 Bill Weiss

DAVID B; Perhaps, in rereading Neary's comment as stated by KEN L. we take it at face value, what he means is that they (eBay) have no way to assess whether or not a foreign item should or should not be forwarded to APS to evaluate? Obviously, if a foreign listing is reported to eBay and they choose to not forward it to the SWC, right there may be the problem with foreign reportings. My understanding however, is that they ARE being referred to the SWC. Maybe the problem lies with eBay, after receiving the final recommendation from APS doesn't act on it? No matter what the end result is, I blame it on eBay.

DAVE F; Absolutely, I'm with you. If I can lend my expertise to examining lots board members find, I will gladly do it as my time allows (I do have an auction next Saturday so the next few weeks will be tight, but I'll still commit to help).

February 13, 2004 David Benson

Bill, maybe you would like to elucidate how you know as no one else seems to or is making any comments about it.

This is an entirely different question to my still unanswered question as to whether material on other sites is being vetted.

David B.

February 13, 2004 Dave Coleman <orstampman at aol dot com>

Thx, Dave

February 13, 2004 Bill Weiss

DAVID B; I don't care. I'm telling you that foreign material is, when referred to the SWC by eBay, examined by them to determine whether they agree that the listing should be referred onto the APS. Maybe Neary was referring to worldwide eBay sites, rather than material? If I'm not mistaken, your questions have taken two directions;
1. Is foreign material vetted?
2. Are eBay foreign sites vetted?
Perhaps Neary refers to sites. My answer has to do with material, which is what you and several others were most concerned about yesterday and today. This answers your question.

February 13, 2004 1:00 pm Dave F. (moderator)

Bill W: I agree entirely. This is not intended to measure the effectiveness of the SWC or the APS/eBay relationship. I believe that everyone participating in it is doing the best possible job.

I think if, for example, something like 500 auctions were tracked, determined to be credible violations consistent with eBay's guidelines, and eBay acted on a very small percentage of them (again, I have no interest in publishing that figure), then there is concrete data that can be discussed with individuals in a position to help improve that figure. That's what we're concerned about, right?

Jim W-S: I suspect that whoever tracks this would need to do with a spreadsheet or database program. To do a really effective job, a copy of the auction as it existed at the time it was reported should also be made. (This can be done in Internet Explorer by using the "save as" command and saving it as a "Web Archive, single file (*.mht)" format, which keeps everything, illustrations, etc." as one html-readable file.) At the end of the auction period, another copy would need to be taken, and the results evaluated (i.e., whether or not the auction closed without bids, if the description changed, etc.)
 

February 13, 2004 Jim Whitford-Stark

Second problem, we would need to know to whom to report.
Otherwise there would be no way of contacting them.

February 13, 2004 David Benson

Dave, another problem may be, should the seller be given the chance to withdraw or amend a problem item before reporting it to Ebay,

David B.

February 13, 2004 David Benson

Bill, that seems to contradict what KL said yesterday with reference to a comment by Dan Neary. You will notice that the terminology is " material " and not in reference to other Ebay sites.

February 11, 2004 Ken Lawrence

Neary said that the system seems to be working well for U.S. material, and that eBay hopes to find a similar solution for fraudulently misdescribed foreign material, but as yet does not have the ability to solve this problem.

 

February 13, 2004 12:48 Dave F. (moderator)

There would also need to be some criteria developed for what is reported. I am thinking specifically of reporting auctions that are only in their first day, so that there would be enough time for eBay to take action. This assumes that the auctions are 7- or 10-day auctions. 3-day auctions need to be dealt with differently (perhaps noted but not followed by this study).

Thinking ahead to some of the implementation issues, if the concept seems sound, is that perhaps people would need to indicate some interest in participating in this (an email to me?), and then a discussion of the specifics to be held offline.

There is no intent to intimidate or embarrass any individual or organization, only to drill down and gather some data which by its very nature would require the effort of a number of individuals.

February 13, 2004 Bill Weiss

NON-US MATERIAL IS VETTED!!
David Benson; I sincerely hope that what I am going to now say will help you to calm down about this matter. I can state to you with 100% certainty that foreign material IS vetted on the eBay US site. Now, you understand that once the SWC decides whether or not a particular item warrants reporting to APS, they then go back to eBay with their decision and at that point it is up to eBay to decide if APS should be notified. Therefore, if you, for example, are reporting lots of items and you have found that nothing has been happening with these reports, it is very important for you to remember several things;
1. It is NOT APS fault;
2. It is NOT the SWC's fault;
3. It IS eBay's fault.

Now that you have my word that foreign material is being examined by the SWC when it is forwarded to them by eBay, I trust that you can, once and for all, place your anger at the proper culprit - eBay!

I also understand that APS (although please understand that I do NOT speak for APS or anything else) compiles a listing of items submitted to them as well as what the ultimate disposition of those items may be. Here again, if the ultimate disposition depends on eBay's final decision, you can't blame anyone but eBay if the material is not being either referred to the SWC or removed after APS has recommended that it be removed.

DAVE F's idea below is great, but I can predict now what he results will be. The results will show only a small percentage of material reported to eBay ultimately being withdrawn. In my opinion, that will be the fault of eBay, not the SWC or the APS. As long as we all understand who the real culprit is in this matter, I say let's do it.
 

February 13, 2004 Jim Whitford-Stark

Dave F
A possible impediment to such a mechanism as you describe would be the person to whom the item is reported will have to keep track with their "my eBay" page.
Each ID is limited to 30 items and presumably people would also want to have legitimate items that they want to bid on.
Over what time frame is the "report count" like to hit, say, 60?

February 13, 2004 David Benson

Dave F.,

in complete agreement, it should be for more than one week.

David B.

February 13, 2004 12:35 Dave F. (moderator)

David B: Yes. I should have been clearer, this would be for an auction in the Stamps category (which includes virtually all philatelic subcategories) submitted to the eBay.com site. It would include both US and non-US material. It would be of no concern to this study as to whether or not items were referred to the Stamp Watch Committee.

February 13, 2004 David Benson

Dave, seems like a good idea but maybe it should also encompass whether non US material is being vetted as well. That is material listed on the US site that is not US material. It may be that they are not being forwarded to SWC for that reason and not because of the complainees record at Ebay,

David B.

February 13, 2004 12:24 Dave F. (moderator)

The foreshadowed post ...
Some of the discussion of the last couple of hours on here is moving towards an idea I'd like to get some feedback on. It is a hybrid of what Roger Wells suggested (thanks Roger!), what Michael K (I think; forgive me if I don't recall correctly) attempted, what Richard B., David B., Bill W., Chuck H. and others have said. (Apologies to those whose names I have inadvertently omitted.) It also gets back to a number of posts made a month or two ago about people who reported a number of auctions on which eBay never appeared to take action.

Based on what we have heard and experienced, much of the frustration apparent has to do with eBay's "black box" approach to enforcement of its auction guidelines, terms and conditions. Many of us have indicated that we've reported auctions that clearly (from a scan) violate those guidelines and/or the APS/eBay Code of Ethics, and yet nothing seems to happen.

My suggestion is this (and as I said, it's a variation on something attempted before, but hopefully addressing the problems that kept it from working):

For an agreed-upon period of time (a week? a month?), for anyone who agrees to participate in this, that anyone who reports an auction to eBay also reports it to a designated individual (or team), who tracks the outcome of eBay's actions.

So far, this is exactly what Michael K (again, I hope I remember correctly) was trying to get started before. The difference is, this information would not be published. Instead, this information would be handed over to several individuals (I have some ideas as to who, but do not want to state them publicly) to ask them to look into it and see why or why not no action was taken on the lots.

This has nothing to do with the scope of what the Stamp Watch Committee does or doesn't look at. It is entirely about the action eBay takes as to these auction complaints.

Based on those outcomes, we can take additional steps.

This leads me back to one of my earlier questions: can anyone figure out if eBay encourages violations to be discussed directly with the seller, or to be submitted to eBay?
 

February 13, 2004 Richard Warren

Off topic, I know(!), but an idiot question: were the Showa definitives of Japan printed both by flat and by rotary plates? And if so, how can one tell which is which? By dimensions only, or by some noticeable difference in print quality? (I presume this last will apply to any such distinction in any such stamp issue.)

February 13, 2004 12:10 Dave F. (moderator)

Richard W: No problem, and I agree with you. Actually, at the outset I thought that non-US items were being evaluated (I have some specific facts to support this, but will not state them publicly), but that it appears that the overwhelming majority of the enforcement has been on US issues. (That's reinforced in the information that Jim W. linked to in his post.)

Still composing the other post ... be back in a minute.

February 13, 2004 David Benson

Dave, which question was that. I cannot see any problem about whether Ebay is checking only Ebay.Com or other material that is available to the US as contentious and have been utterly surprised that it hasn't been answered. it only needs a YES or a NO and presumably only a committee member of the APS would know but it appears that they don't want to answer or possibly don't know the answer.

I agree that the question why certain complainees complaints are not even being looked at can be very contentious but it has to be stated as it has very serious implications for Ebay especially if a newspaper or magazine starts making enquiries and it could cause a lot of harm to the reputation of Ebay,

David B.

February 13, 2004 Richard W

Sorry, Dave - chipped in there before your post came up. I'll shut up on that.

February 13, 2004 Richard Warren

Comment as much as you like, Bill. Unless I've missed something, David is correct about his first question - (eBay.com only or also material available to US on other sites?) not yet having had an answer. And it's essentially a reasonable question, regardless of the unpleasant flame wars it may have led us into.

February 13, 2004 12:01 Dave F. (moderator)

David B: I suspect that anyone who is in a position to know is probably not going to say it (especially publicly), because of the enforcement implications it suggests. It is not in eBay's interest (nor in ours or anyone else who is concerned about misrepresented philatelic items on eBay) to indicate what they are or are not enforcing. I suspect eBay is hoping that fear of enforcement through random enforcement will work. (The same principle used in traffic law enforcement.) Whether it does or not is certainly a matter of debate, but let's defer that for the moment.

Also, it is my understanding that anyone who is in a position to know anything about the arrangement is contractually bound not to disclose any information about it. (I know this is a troubling condition for some senior people in the philatelic community.)

Can we defer that question for a minute? The reason I ask is because I'm currently composing another post that may address some of that concern.

February 13, 2004 Matt Liebson

Bill W: big difference between what is legally permissible and what is permitted by eBay's own regulations. Tortious interference, as a legal doctrine, generally requires proof of an improper motive by the interfering party. eBay, on the other hand, basically prohibits any contact with a buyer that leads to any decision by that buyer not to complete the transaction (even if the information is correct).

February 13, 2004 Bill Weiss

The High Road
I'm going to take the "high road" and not comment on the last two posts. Anyone else care to?

February 13, 2004 David Benson

Ken L.

If it is Ebay that is blocking sending queries to the SWC I would think it is in the APS's interest to find out why material that is reported as fake (such as the 3 forged overprints I mentioned yesteday)is not forwarded. I cannot see anyone at Ebay answering my question either by phone or email but the APS should have enough clout to ask more pertinent questions as to who authorised it and why this is being done.

If it is because they have some of their staff classed me as a
" persitant nagger " to use the term that was used to describe me yesterday all I can say is that every item I have reported was fake without a doubt and yet allowed to be sold,

David B.
 

February 13, 2004 David Benson

Paolo, condolences on your loss, if it was expected then maybe it is for the best,

David B.

February 13, 2004 David Benson

I have just caught up on Chat as I had a late night.

Dear Ken & Bill,

even though both of you have stated that you have answered my questions, neither of you have and the references that Bill W. referred to do not answer them either,

here they are again,

would you please just answer them in simple words, without sarcasm and insults,

Does the Ebay/APS relationship encompass items listed on Ebay.Com or material listed on other Ebay international sites that material is available for sale in the US.

Is the Stamp Watch Committee vetting all non US material that is reported to them,

You have answered the second question and the problem appears to be with Ebay who is blocking some of the queries. The 1st. question is still completely unanswered. Please do not refer to old statements taht have no bearing on what is happening now,

David Benson who is not and never has been a Rabbi or Rabbinical student.

 

February 13, 2004 David Benson

Ken, thanks for letting me know that some of your fellow directors gave me a bad report. I am on 1st. name terms with some of them and they have never been anything else but friendly and no sign of animosity. Next time I see them or am in contact with any of them I will ask and see if they made any comments about me,

David B.

February 13, 2004 Richard Ballhagen (spain_1850

So, what would a proper procedure be for getting something done about a seller who is intentionally mis-describing items to circumnavigate ebays rules, when a)The seller is unresponsive to "ask seller a question" emails. b)Uses private auctions to hide bidders id's. c)Has already been reported ad nauseum for the same flagrant violations, which in turn are duly ignored by ebay. Suggestions? Only thing I can think of is to parade them (the seller and his wares) around on as many public boadrs as will allow them. I will respect each boards rules though for not pointing fingers directly.

February 13, 2004 2 PM or so prometheus <prometheus@1internetdrive.com>

Fair Cancel anyone
those of you that like different cancels,
I am going to the Florida state Fair in the morning
Anyone that would like one of the cancels on a postcard
email is above .
I have lots of Unused vintage postcards, too many stamps
including some neat oldies .
Send your address and I'll post you a card from the Quaint one room log cabin post office at the Florida State Fair.

Offer good till box fills up it is empty now.
Please no long message just a snail address would be plenty.
It is the Cracker Country Post Office if anyone is wondering.
I myself am mailing a couple of Unused early expo Cards to self.

February 13, 2004 Bill Weiss

Buy Them!
BILL C; I'll give you a little tip since you didn't post the whereabouts of the 90c fakes....if you can buy them for $70., buy them. At $35. per fake, there is money to be made!

February 13, 2004 Bill Weiss

Not An Attorney
MATT; My layperson take on interference in a transaction (which I understand is illegal in any kind of a transaction - not only on eBay) is that some kind of disuasion must be used - such as you point out below. "Don't buy this item because...". The kind of notices given to eBay BUYERS, along the lines of "are you aware that this stamp can not be a Scott #14 because it does not have the 3 pearls on both sides of design, thus is likely a trimmed #35 since #35 is the only ten cent stamp that does not have those pearls", in my mind, does not constitute auction interference. I believe we discussed these perameters here before and I thought there was some disageement, even among the attorneys, as to exactly what constituted true "interference" as opposed to "informed advice".

February 13, 2004 Matt Liebson

Bill W: it is a matter of degree, not a real "safe harbor" (pun intended). My thought is simply that one is at less risk if the eBay email system is not used to directly say "I don't think you should follow through on that transaction". You do correctly note that there are only limited forums for such conversations.

The real purpose for the "auction interference" rule is to prevent people from saying "don't pay $21.99 for that; I'll sell you one for $19.99," but as with so many other things eBay is unable to distinguish responsible conduct from irresponsible!

February 13, 2004 10:52 Mark Bardell

Link Fix
Dave. F.

Many thanks for fixing that link - I'll get the hang of taking out one of the http's one of these days !

From a nice, mild ( 48 degrees today ) sunny, Baltimore.
Mark.

February 13, 2004 Bill Weiss

Matt L.
In my heart, of course, I know you are right, but I kind of see this as a "catch-22". If we were to refer buyers (or sellers) to this board to alert them to any opinion we may have, I believe that runs counter to DAVE F's new policy. Also, how can we discuss such topics as suspected misdescribed material, without that also being construed as auction interference? For myself, I will take my chances as I feel they are warranted. Last night I told a seller that the #579 he was offering was really a booklet-pane single worth very little. He ignored me, but no one bid on the lot so no harm was done.
I'm a big boy, but I couldn't sleep right if I totally ignored the most blatent things where real money may be involved. I rarely will go after a cheap listing, although I don't have a "minimum" I require.

February 13, 2004 10:24 Dave F. (moderator)

threads
Paul B: I'm sorry, I didn't mean to overlook you in my earlier post. Thank you for your kind offer again, and I remember the outstanding job you did in developing that prototype for the eBay board/EUSC several years ago. Let me discuss this with you via email.

February 13, 2004 10:19 Dave F. (moderator)

What does eBay suggest?
A request for a little bit of fact-finding:

What does eBay say to do if one finds misrepresented lots? Do they say to contact the seller, or do they say to report it to them? Do they make any distinction between what appears to be a unwitting error versus systematic misstatement? Do they specifically say what to do if an auction listing violates eBay's guidelines? (An easy example would be of stamps that are not marked as forgeries.)

I spent a little while looking and couldn't find anything one way or another, but I haven't always had success in finding info on eBay's pages. Some of you are much more expert at this.

February 13, 2004 Brian R

We might be all roiled up in this again, but let's not forget something. This is a far better situation than before. I think that those involved will the public shaming of Ebay, and the APS with the SWC, are BOTH to be applauded so far. Ebay gets no like treatment from me, for the whole sad mess, was of their creation in the first place.

February 13, 2004 10:12 Dave F. (moderator)

various
Jim W: In my mind, absolutely no apology is needed. The amount of time and effort you've put into this process is much appreciated. I'm just about to study your post and the links in more detail. I also made the correction from Columbus to Norfolk in that post so that it might eliminate any potential confusion for subsequent readers. Again, thanks for all your help.

Mark B: I also fixed your link as well. Thanks for sharing this link.

Kevin L: David B is in Australia. Perhaps someone here in the US would like to volunteer to make that call and report back to David. I will also concur that whenever I've called the APS for anything, I have found everyone there to be extremely courteous and very helpful.

Paolo & Jim D: My sincerest wishes of comfort to both of you. Painful losses are always painful, no matter how much time has passed.
 

February 13, 2004 Victor Horadam <horadam1@airmail.net>

General
Paolo, my sympathies on a sorrowful anniversary. I, too, will always remember the days, the circumstances, the feeling of powerlessness to change things, and the empty feeling when my parents died. It converted me into an "adult", no matter what age I was at, at the time.

February 13, 2004 9:57 mark bardell

Additional search engine for Ebay
Hi everyone, just reading through some posts on the Trust and Safety board and someone had posted the following link which claims to be a little better at finding items on Ebay than Ebay itself. Once you have done the initial search, you can click on Advanced Search which gives a lot more options. Anyway, thought I'd post it in case anyone wanted to check it out.

Vivisimo

Mark.

February 13, 2004 Rob Faux

Paolo My condolences also. And, Jim I've not yet stopped thinking of things I'd like to say to those who have left before - even after many years (relatively speaking). But, in one sense, that is a comfort, because they remain important to me and are not totally forgotten.

Rob

February 13, 2004 Richard Ballhagen

Settling things with sellers only works if the seller chooses to respond to emails sent.
Warning bidders only works if the bidders id's are NOT being hidden with private auctions.

When users cannot rely on these 2 procedures, then it's time to send ebay a complaint, which is apparently re-routed out the back door.........complaint taken care of.

February 13, 2004 Jim (jaywild)

Jim

February 13, 2004 Roger Heath

Relationships
Ken L - You hit the nail on the head. APS is the last resort becasue the procedures you describe have failed. Due to Ebay's total lack of "expertise" in the philatelic market, they chose to do nothing other than tell us one can't determine authenticity from a scan. And though Bill W may contact buyers after an auction (he has a fallback position if Ebay suspends him) many of us willnot becasue we risk having the ability to use Ebay! I would not have spent money buying 1100 lots if I could not use Ebay. Again, the airplane syndrome. I would not be back in collecting if not for Ebay, so it in my interest as a collector to do everything possible to help clean up fraudulent auctions on Ebay. I have no fall back position. If the APS/Ebay partnership doesn't work, APS will go back to what it's always done. If Ebay closed its stamp categories, I'd be forced to use traditional auction houses to sell my material, and I know I would get screwed to be blunt. It is unlikely any US auction house would sell my collection, but I expect to sell on Ebay if and when the time comes. I accept no responsibility of Ebay's failure to police its site. I accept none of the responsibility of APS being overwhelmed . I accept the responsibility of forwarding higly questionable auctions, and putting preasure on the organizations that are outwardly protecting buyers on Ebay. I feel the current situation is along the lines of a "Neighborhood Watch", everyone gets to place a sticker in thier windos, but there were no allocation of funds to prevent more crime. Only the most outrageous criminal are caught, and their attorneys threaten anyone who attempts to get in their way. I think David F can give you more detail on that aspect. PLease re-read your paragraph:

"Part of the failure -- if it is failing -- is the responsibility of people here. This process is intended only as a last
resort. By flagging stamps to eBay instead of trying to resolve the problem directly with the sellers, complainers
are jamming the system with problems it cannot begin to tackle. Our APS complaints procedure, by way of
comparison, requires that aggrieved parties try to settle their disputes privately, and only if they fail will APS
accept their grievances for resolution. The same principle applies here. If people would respect that, the system
would work well, because it is designed to capture data about chronic offenders, not to track every innocently or
optimistically misdescribed stamp."

We've been there, done that four years ago, three years ago, and had chat boards closed trying to inform buyers of potential problems. Kick in the chins is the present. Thank you.

Roger

February 13, 2004 Dave P

This attitude may rightly be criticised, and I am sure there are arguments against it. But I shall be careful what I buy, hope I will build a reputation as an honest and trustworthy seller, welcome any comment or criticism if I wrongly describe something, and concentrate on enjoying my chosen hobby.

February 13, 2004 Duncan Doenitz

A little history lesson

Some things never change...

Check out this item about eBay from October of 2002, here.

Most importantly, notice that there is an e-mail link provided to the author! How nice to find someone who is interested in the problem, I wrote to him and hope others will do so as well.

Hopefully this is not seen as a nag but rather as one more way to actually get something positive done. MSNBC reaches a HUGE audience.

Dunc

February 13, 2004 Roger Wells <rwells at azstarnet dot com>

APS seems to be in quite a unique position here to *measure* something about eBay's functioning... known
information "in," known information "out," then further information if questions about the "out" part of it are sent
back to eBay... like "Are you certain no other complaints about this dealer/listing could have been sent in?" It
seems to me that APS really needs at least rudimentary testing of this sort if not an elaborate research project,
to be sure it's actually performing a useful service rather than being used and wasting its time.
 

February 13, 2004 08:39 Bill Claghorn (claghorn1p) http://www.geocities.com/claghorn1p/
 

One is a forgery
Bill W. Many buyers, myself included, in a rush, look at the title and the picture and do not read the fine print until after the sale closes. Hopefully I am smarter now. A buyer might think they are getting a bargain at $70.00

February 13, 2004 Matt Liebson

Bill W: you might care a little more about contacting buyers if one of them complains to eBay (or more likely, a seller complains after a buyer backs out) and eBay suspends you for interference. Some of us have simply offered invitations to buyers of certain lots to come to a chat board to discuss a purchase, which is less likely to result in eBay problems. [it's a horrible policy by eBay, but one must be prepared to pay the price for violation].

February 13, 2004 Bill Weiss

I Agree
Have read this mornings posts and hereby pledge to do my small part to travel a higher road in my posts. I owe that to DAVE F.

Ken's point about not clogging up the process with too many complaints is valid. My personal method is to contact the seller, offer him/her my credentials and my opinion and request the lot be terminated. I then plug it into my favorites and check on it after the sale closes. If the seller hasn't taken the item down and sells it despite my email to him, I then notify the buyer, and do not give a rat's ass if that is in violation of anything, and inquire of the buyer whether or not he was aware of whatever problem exists with the item? Almost always, I will hear from an honest seller, will not hear from a dishonest seller, and will be thanked by the wronged buyer.

BILL C; That's called "CYA" - do you know what that is?

February 13, 2004 Richard Ballhagen (spain_1850)

On boards - I went to the VSC message board, but found 0 topics of interest in the list. It seems to be mainly topics of interest to collectors of U.S. material, which I am not. I'll continue to lurk here, and on occasion, offer my opinion on things.
 

February 13, 2004 Richard Ballhagen (spain_1850)

I too would like to see the ebay/APS arrangement work out, especially for foreign material. What kind of ticks me off is that ebay did NOT tell us that they would focus their attentions on only U.S material for now. How long is "for now"? Just like to know so I don't keep wasting the skin on my fingertips keying in complaints about the same old people, at least not until ebay is ready to hear them. Of course, if we DON'T continue to complain about the same old people then ebay will simply claim victory since they are getting NO complaints. Kind of a catch-22.

February 13, 2004 Richard Warren

PS: Is David Benson really a rabbi? Or am I lost among your extended metaphors?

February 13, 2004 prometheus

opinions
As with most chat boards (all)
you sometimes have factions, individuals
who will never
agree/like/notice/favor/applaud/ etc each other.
Just like in life no matter what the liberals think
We can Not just "all get along"
As a rookie in this field
I find the discourse interesting and enlightening.
I've learned a bunch here and have been able to glean alot about the hobby in general.

Not that I want to date any of the participants.
But what goes on here is as common as dirt.
pick any subject and the chat will gennerally be
along the same lies
do
do too
do not
did too
him
No him
You
Them
Us
We
Not me


and then there is the I
Thanks Dave the evolution of any group on the net is an interesting thing to see.
My favorite part here am the lurkers who on occassion pop into share a stamp/cover.
Or ask about an area that I have never even seen before.
I find this greatly enriching to my stamp store of info.
As I am not a memeber of either the E or APs communities
I have no real opinion on the relationship.
But just the view of an outsider
" I think a lot of people are getting hosed"
One day when I'm rich and famous ( course you all will have gone on to the Album in the sky by then) Maybe I'll take my Nobel money and by some real good Philatelic items till then
I'll just muddle along with my cheap stuff, Hoping to learn as much as I can to avoid wasting my quarters.

February 13, 2004 Paolo Bagaglia

Bob H. and Jim W.
Thanks for your posts.
Yes, indeed that day was a Friday; not that I checked, I just know as I lived it. I was fourteen and an acquaintance of my family came by car to pick me up at school in Perugia. I knew there was something very wrong, as soon as a school keeper came in the classroom and asked permission to the teacher (Prof.ssa Marcucci of mathematics) to have me removed from that lesson, despite he just kindly said that there might have been something the matter with my father. That morning, earlier in the day, in the bus to go there, I recall to have made jokes regarding the bad luck that might had been brought by that date; anyway, I never believed in such things. This was happening at about 7:20 AM and at that hour, almost precisely, my father was expiring at the hospital.

Nevertheless, I am doing fine but have some matters that haunt me, such as:
1. my delay in updating (or make it in a way it is) the eUSC website; (moslty due to what transformed into an inadequate, slow connection).
2. my chronic delay in replying to e-mails and/or to greeting postcards;
3. my slowness in sending payments and/or in contacting people(procrastinating comes to mind, in some cases);
4. new keyboard and new computer (still have to get around it ;-)
5. ... various, including my incapability in taking any sort of firm decision on some matters or the opposite, taking it too firm.

Bob I am glad you got my card! Please send my best wishes and express my gratitude to Pat as well.
Kind regards, Paolo


 

February 13, 2004 Duncan Doenitz

Is there a spin doctor in the house?

Seems to me the system to eliminate fraud in the eBay Stamps category is dependent on those who report the abuse, so it surprises me to discover that they are part of the problem.

Robert Lamb and Dan Neary in an earlier discussion about properly marked forgeries mentioned that only two cases regarding unmarked stamps had been forwarded to the Committee, its unfortunate that this has swamped them.

That allows Power Sellers who offer items like this to slip through the cracks. Of course describing the item as a Cinderella and a "philatelic item" in a private sale, as is, no returns, thoroughly confuses eBay.

The huge overload could be slowed considerably if eBay took seriously their pledge to root out the repeat bad sellers.

Incidentally, I very much resent being called a strident whiner for pointing out the obvious corruption at eBay. However I take consolation in the fact that I am not in denial.

Actually Ken I feel a bit bad about the cheap shot, I owe you a lot and I hope you know that I do respect you. However, the system won't work unless the APS examines eBay's role, because there is no excuse for the Power Sellers to have immunity.

Dunc

"Not spin, just the plain truth."

February 13, 2004 05:47 Bill Claghorn (claghorn1p) http://www.geocities.com/claghorn1p/
 

One is a forgery
Bill Weiss The title of this auction is One is a Forgery and only the fine print says that the other may be a forgery too.

February 13, 2004 Ken Lawrence

Bill Dempwolf

Thank you. That is the link to VSC. Once you get there, click on Message Board, log in either as a member or guest, and the rest is obvious.

February 13, 2004 Ken Lawrence

Dave F

On its face, your proposal is wonderful, but the test will be in the execution. I hope it will succeed. However, unless you can persuade or force David Benson to quit twisting plain words that don't suit him, and to fall silent after the seventeenth iteration of the same previously answered question, it won't work.

To my knowledge I have never met the man, but evidently others in the APS leadership have. It was based on their experiences with him that I was advised to avoid this board, and the predictions have sadly been fulfilled. Nothing APS does or does not do is ever satisfactory to him. Each inch of progress evokes only further taunts. He has shown himself to be barren of constructive ideas. He may well be a successful international exhibitor and FIP judge. So am I, so what? But he is intentionally nettlesome, and then when challenged in kind, petulant.

I had vowed never to respond to Mister Benson again, because it is impossible to avoid having my words misrepresented. Nevertheless, and even though his questions have been answered directly more times than anyone would care to count, here they are for the final time:

Only eBay knows which complaints, from which eBay venues, get forwarded to the Stamp Community Watch Group. No one from APS can answer the question more fully than that, and eBay claims not to have any mechanism to retrieve these data. I have stated that before, both publicly and in private e-mail. The question has never been misunderstood, and Mister Benson's persistence in asking it is intentionally obtuse. Psychiatrists have a name for people who try to manipulate others this way.

The SCWG vets every stamp for which eBay seeks its opinion, usually taking 24 or more hours to consider an item. (These are not idle people hovering over their computers 24 hours a day. They are professionals and scholars with families, jobs, and responsibilities, performing volunteer work to help you. They deserve better than the taunts and abuses heaped upon them here by Mister Benson.) If any two of them agree that the item is questionable, the query is forwarded to APS for determination. If APS believes the item is not properly described, eBay takes it down.

No one keeps count of these, because the project is already too big to manage without adding an additional bureaucratic burden for which no compensation exists. Asking paperwork at a time when the people involved are already overburdened will not be accepted by either party to the agreement.

Part of the failure -- if it is failing -- is the responsibility of people here. This process is intended only as a last resort. By flagging stamps to eBay instead of trying to resolve the problem directly with the sellers, complainers are jamming the system with problems it cannot begin to tackle. Our APS complaints procedure, by way of comparison, requires that aggrieved parties try to settle their disputes privately, and only if they fail will APS accept their grievances for resolution. The same principle applies here. If people would respect that, the system would work well, because it is designed to capture data about chronic offenders, not to track every innocently or optimistically misdescribed stamp.

Now you and I both know that before the day is out, David B will find some way to whine about these answers, or to twist them. And when that occurs, it will undermine your good intentions. No amount of useful philatelic contributions he may also provide can atone for his attitude on these issues.

February 13, 2004 05:14 Jim Watson

Paolo,
Condolences to you on this sad anniversary. It's a further shame that today is a Friday the 13th.

February 13, 2004 Bob Hohertz

Thanks for your response here - I had intended to do what you suggested.

February 13, 2004 Bob Hohertz

Paolo, couldn't resist that - how are you doing? Enjoyed your postcards - thanks much!

February 13, 2004 Bob Hohertz

Paolo, I am very sorry to hear that. Please accept Pat's and my sympathy.

February 13, 2004 Paolo Bagaglia

Non philatelic
On Friday 13 February 1981 my father Giorgio died.
Paolo

February 13, 2004 04:39 Jim Watson

Motion 1: permit sales of postal/fiscal and classic forgeries providing they are appropriately described and can be expertised

Motion 2: prohibit the sales of photocopied or computer copied items and probihit the sales of items that have been altered to appear to be more valuable items
Motion 3: APS MAY impose fines for submitting fake items not properly labeled
Motion 4: APS will publish lists of questionable items and items that really need to be expertised.

February 13, 2004 Kevin LaFrance

APS
DAVID B....Here is a suggestion....Why dont you just call the APS and ask them exactly what the partnership is with eBay? (phone 814-237-3803, fax 814-237-6128) Everytime I had a question about APS anything I called and the question was answered immediately. That way you dont have to rely on others to answer your questions that dont seem to be getting answered to your satisfaction. Kevin

February 13, 2004 Brian McInturff

Dave F I like the proposal. It will be hard for some though because of their strong feelings toward their cause. Which is understandable.
Paul I know following the board can be hectic at times but I don't see a need for yet another board. Doing so usually causes a loss of interest by the participants. Maybe you could work with Dave Frick and alter this board but that would be Dave's decision. He's painstakingly kept this forum going at what I'm sure is a great burden. Dave, Great job. We are indebted to you.

February 13, 2004 Paolo Bagaglia

Jim W-S -- I consider you as one of my highly esteemed friends posting here, together with David B. and about ten others, and this honours me! At the moment I do not care to make additional friends here.
I get upset when I do not get a reply and therefore figuratively (and temporarily, because I am forgiving sometimes) boot the guilty "interlocutor" (likely unaware that behind my answer, in 95% of the cases, there is a time sucking and serious sequence of "examination => comparison => conclusion", which should be useful, at least to store another point of view, backed by my experience and that of those in the specifical literature I consulted, in any case). I do this in real life as well, therefore have not many friends!
I only used bablefish in one post here, to save time, the other day; it yealded mistakes rather than enhancing the power of explanation or exchange of information. I used it (as I might be doing it in other occasions) since I had wisely foreseen that my effort wuold have been misinterpreted and/or neglected (as it has been elsewhere). But then David B. made a positive comment about it.
Kind regards, Paolo
 

February 13, 2004 Ken Lawrence

Dave F

I think you are not reading carefully. I haven't dismissed anyone's concerns ever. I have explained my personal disagreements with some people's concerns, and have implored everyone, ESPECIALLY those who disagree with me, to make their concerns known by participating in the APS process the way the rest of our members do. That has been my policy as long as I have served in any leadership capacity.

It's equally true that with EUSC boasts 368 members on its website, the gripers against the current APS arrangement with EBay number fewer than a dozen, out of 48,000 APS members. They are nasty and abusive toward me, but very few others, even on this board, agree with them. But the numbers of members who do attend our meetings and participate in our democratic process outnumber them 100 to one at least.

I realize that people with professional skills and advanced degrees can be as obnoxious as anyone, often because they feel superior to the rest of us, but I do not dismiss their concerns, even when I reply to them in their own styles. Truth is, that is what causes their resentments. They fling bricks at APS and eBay all day, evidently having nothing better to do, but can't take it when someone turns their words against them. Until I can here last fall, they regarded trashing eBay, APS, and APEX as sport.

I repeat myself, but members of VSC are every bit as skilled and experienced in eBay use as anyone here, and everey bit as professional and educated. They are also more courteous, less reckless in their allegations, and more constructive.

February 13, 2004 Jim Lawler

Jim L.

February 13, 2004 12:41 CET Paul B. <philaweb at (remove) yahoo dot dk>

Any opinions?

February 13, 2004 Adam

Colombia
Thanks for that. Is there a scott catalogue on the internet?

Adam

February 13, 2004 Rich Wong

Colombia
Adam
I think I found your "Minas de Oro" (Gold Mining) stamp. Per the Scott catalogue, it's deep orange and either the 1935
unwatermarked issue or the 1939 issue watermarked Wavy Lines and C Multiple. There was also 2c "Petroleras" (Oil Wells)
stamp.

February 13, 2004 Rich Wong - APS member 068,995 since 1972

Support for your Proposal
Dave
You have my full support! Target the fradulent sellers, not each other!

February 13, 2004 Adam

Colombia
Typo on the "mone"

February 13, 2004 Adam

Colombia
Hi its me again. I have this one stamp thats really troubling me.
I know its from colombia, but I cant find it in the stanley Gibbons catalogue. Here are the full specs of it.

Correos De Colombia
Red or maybe dark orange
10c
'minas de oro'
Diez Centavos
Cancel says: 'something (ending in 'ntes')Aereos' 1936
On the very bottom it says in small writing: 'America Bank Note co.'

I've heard that America Bank Note co. has made petroleum stamps, but mone is not a petroleum stamp. On the picture it has a man sitting down (probably miner)

So can someone help out?

Thanks

Adam
 

February 13, 2004 Roger Heath

Brian's Blatant Badinage
Brian - I couldn't resist sending the following email to that seller. The drink helped, thanks!

"I guess you are discovering the difference between good sex and not so good sex. Nice try."

Roger

February 13, 2004 Victor Horadam <horadam1@airmail.net>

General
Dave F.: Sounds most reasonable to me. Well said.

February 13, 2004 Brian R

oh brother
THIS, has got to be the most blatantly deceptive description I've yet encountered. Is this what is known as "keyword spamming"?

February 12, 2004 David Benson

David B., if it is 12 1/2, then it is most probably OK but if 11 just one the later made up and pre dated items but unusual in Blue. See what it is but don't be surprised if it is OK and 12 1/2,

David

February 12, 2004 David Moser <stamphick@dospalos.org>

David

February 12, 2004 David Benson

David M., it looks Bluish but is the stamp perf. 11 or 12 1/2,

David B. who is going out to dinner in about 15 minutes

February 12, 2004 David Moser <stamphick@dospalos.org>

David

February 12, 2004 21:26 Dave F. (moderator)

More small but important edits. Make that 9:26 pm PT.

February 12, 2004 21:14 Dave F. (moderator)

For the record, I made some small edits to both posts, so if you've loaded the board before 9:14pm PT, please reload it again. Thanks.

February 12, 2004 21:08 Dave F. (moderator)

A Proposal
The overwhelming majority of participants on this board share a common concern over the presence of a significant amount of misrepresented philatelic material on eBay. In every case I can think of, each of these people is concerned about the impact, both short-term and long-term, on the hobby. This is what we all share in common.

Can we all agree to take the high road and stop the interpersonal sniping? It makes us look like the Keystone Cops, especially to those who see us as the opposition, and it's a tremendous waste of talent, energy and resources. We are fighting with each other, rather than fighting against the problem.

This proposal will require a high degree of discipline and self-control, and for some it will be very difficult, but I don't propose it lightly: we all need to be pulling on the same team to be effective.

This means the end of snips, snipes, put-downs, jabs, sarcastic, dismissive, and condescending remarks, and the whole smart-ass family, both to and about individual participants on here, this board collectively, and the APS.

Can we all agree to take the high road and see how that works for a while, since the alternative clearly doesn't? Can we focus on solutions?

Is there any support for this?

February 12, 2004 21:05 Dave F. (moderator)

After a self-imposed moratorium of about 10 hours, I am back, first to answer some questions, and then to make a proposal.

First, the replies (in no particular order):

Bill W: I had decided against doing a separate email page, in part of out of respect for people's privacy, and that's why the email option is there as a part of the post. But I understand what you're saying. I had also thought about creating a place where people could put a profile, but, again, thought it seemed like I was not being respectful of people's privacy. Anyway, that's why there's nothing like that to this point.

Ken: I believe that somewhere between one-half to two-thirds of the regular posters on here are members of the APS.
Also, given that this board spun off from the eBay board, where everyone was a registered user -- many of them highly experienced ones -- of eBay, it does not surprise me that most of the concerns about eBay (and now, by association, the eBay/APS relationship) would occur here. This board has been the defacto location to discuss frustrations about eBay and concerns about disreputable selling practices, since eBay was the logical location until they starting heavily deleting posts. Many people (myself included) have over 5 years' experience on eBay. It stands to reason that if this board is populated by experienced eBay users, of which a significant number are also APS members, and given that one of the original raisons d'être of the board was to try to address concerns about misrepresented material on eBay, that this board would be the place to find this discussion.

I'm not saying any of this to be argumentative, but it does not surprise me that one would find that kind of discussion here, and I don't think it's appropriate to thus discredit it for that reason.

Also, because this needs to be said somewhere, and just so it is known, there are a number of well-educated, advanced-degree professionals who participate here. It pains me to see all of these people and their concerns collectively dismissed, especially since, once again, a number of them are also both APS members and experienced eBay users.

Colin, Bill, Brian & others: Thanks for the postive comments, either here or offline.


My next post will be about a proposal.

February 12, 2004 David Benson

Bill, thanks, that is all I want, someone in an official capacity of either the APS or Ebay to make a statement on the questions would completely calm me from asking any more questions.

I will repeat the questions so that there is no misunderstanding.

Does the Ebay/APS relationship encompass items liste on Ebay.Com or material listed on other Ebay international sites that material is available for sale in the US.

Is the Stamp Watch Committee vetting all non US material that is reported to them,

David Benson

February 12, 2004 Bill Dempwolf

Bill

February 12, 2004 Bill Weiss

I give up
BRIAN; Thank you. You get it.

DAVID BENSON; I guess you can't see yourself going around in circles here, can you? I know what you want, but your not going to get it. Let me ask you this - despite the fact that I cited below at least three examples of APS alluding to the fact that they intended to focus on US material, that obviously doesn't convince you. Despite the fact that by your own admission, your daily reports to eBay go unanswered and unsolved, you still aren't convinced.

If someone in an official capacity would come on this chatboard and plainly tell you that the focus will, for now, be on US material, would that then calm you down? See, in my heart, I honestly don't feel that it would. I honestly feel that you are too consumed to step back from this and relax and let some time pass and let this relationship develop (or not). You would, I believe, be doing yourself (and many of us) a favor if you could do that. Step back and relax.

February 12, 2004 Brian R

My apologies to Paolo I did not know that. I assumed.
 

February 12, 2004 Jim Whitford-Stark

Brian
Paolo has perfect spoken English, much better than most English-speakers ( except with an accent). As does the beautiful Michelle. Being an Italian, living in the Netherlands, writing in English can lead to a few mistakes. Maybe the spelling isn't 100%. I can live with it, can read it, and hope that he would count me as a friend.

February 12, 2004 David Benson

Brian R., forget my opinion of the SWC, all I am asking for is to view something in print or on a web page that has details about whether the SWC is handling non US material and also whether it encompasses material listed on Ebay.Com only or on other sites.
No one so far has pointed out anything and those that do know from either the APS or Ebay have kept quiet about it as they don;t want it to become public knowledge.

How would you like it if only non US was vetted and all US fakes, forgeries, computer reproductions, photo copies whatever was allowed to be listed and sold without any impediment. There would be hundreds yelling and yet because it is non US there are only a few lonely voices who are getting insulted whenever they try to find out what is happening,

David Benson

February 12, 2004 Marius

APS Live Auction
Bob I bid on an article early. Just a lowball bid as it wasn't my collecting area and would only resell it. I was surprised I got it as I had no other internet competition and only had bids against me from the floor

February 12, 2004 Brian R

Ken L, Roger, et al
Could you drop a link to the sites you're talking about, or at least the url?

February 12, 2004 Brian R

David B
I'm going to try to say this nicely, and I have zero animosity towards you, so I hope you don't take it poorly. It's not ment to be overtly mean, only an observation. I think what Bill W Is trying to say is just about everyone in the English speaking world (and paolo via bablefish), is now completely aware of your opinions on the SWC. We can't help but be, because you post it three to six times per day! I'ts getting to the point where I suspect some are starting to root for Addie......

February 12, 2004 Ken Lawrence

Roger Heath

Forget the chat. Read the VSC board. That's where serious exchanges take place.

February 12, 2004 Terence Hines

Terence Hines

February 12, 2004 Roger Heath

VSC
Aloha,
I took a look at the Vrtual Stamp Club Chat. Is the chat only one night a week? If not, and it is currently "alive", how does one post and read the messages? I've never seen a chat board with no message window, so color me puzzled and or sheltered!


I did follow one thread about selling on Ebay. Interesting, and seems to be a different philosophy expressed.

Roger

February 12, 2004 David Benson

Bill, what don't I get, if you mean that I am being ignored by Ebay, yes, I get that and do you think they should be doing that. All I am doing is reporting fakes to them. When you first appeared here you mentioned that you wanted to help clean up all the badly listed items on Ebay. Luckily for you they were US but over 60% of material listed on Ebay.US is not US and they are not being cleaned up.

I have tried to be civil and could you please reply civilly,

David Benson

February 12, 2004 David K.

You call it...
Let's get serious...
Color is correct on this stamp; not only that, but it is silk paper!
Any ideas on what to call it when submitted to the APS? click here

February 12, 2004 almost 7 pm Bob in WA

APS-eBay Live Auction

Ken -- I'm pleased to hear APS was gratified with the results of the auction, but I believe they lost many bids because of a goof. I tried to bid with 4 hours to go, and got a message that auction was closed. As nearly as I could determine, there was a mixup between eBay's 24 hour clock and the postings, so the bookmarks indicated closing times 12 hours after they closed! If so, they completely shut out all the potential snipe bids, or any who planned to bid in the last 12 hours, for that matter! I sent a note to the seller immediately, informing them of this, and expressing hope they would find and fix the problem before any future auctions. I never received a response, but I guess it didn't call for one, as I couched it in terms of informing rather than questioning. That $7700 might have been well over $10k but for this problem, I should think.

February 12, 2004 Bill Weiss

David Benson
YOU JUST DON'T GET IT, DO YOU??????????????????????????

February 12, 2004 Bill Weiss

email addresses
SUGGESTION; Not that our esteemed moderator needs any more work, but how about an email registry list such as Frajola has on his board? That way, anyone could easily refer to it if they wish to contact anyone else privately OR could just as easily choose NOT to reveal their email address on the registry.

February 12, 2004 DAvid K.

Well, for those of you that enjoy the springtime and outdoor activities; you can practice one of America's best pastimes: click here
PS, if you miss the little bugger, watch it grow!

February 12, 2004 David Benson

Bill,

this is some of examples of items I have reported lately to no avail.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2986310788&category=263

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2986320407&category=263

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2984681370&category=263

These are all overprints but it does not need anyone with much philatelic knowledge to know they are all fake. I sent in reports with details about the overprints, no answers. It may be OK to say that they are concentrating on US material but British Commonwealth is much simpler and very easy to divide stamps and overprints into 3 groups.

definitely forged,
possibly forged,
probably genuine,

There must be many members of the APS that could handle that type of work quickly and just note the definitely forged. Even if they were elimated it would get rid a lot of useless material from being sold to new collectors who only look at catalog value and selling price.

David Benson
 

February 12, 2004 Ken Lawrence

Chuck

I have discused eBay with dozens of collectors, by now maybe hundreds. The ONLY cynicism I have detected anywhere is on this chat board. If I had encountered it anywhere else, in any context whatsoever, I might tend to agree with you. But detecting none, I think for APS to dwell on this concern would be a mistake. The facts have been thoroughly reported here, but that hasn't mollified our cynics and zealots at all.

In fact, the single aspect of the eBay agreement that did prompt more widespread discontent concerned to policy on marking forgeries, which the APS Board has fixed as it applies to our own Sales policies.

Janet Klug ran for the APS presidency partly out of the conviction that APS does not communicate as effectively as possible with members and the public. One consequence is that the newly elected Boards of both APS and APRL met jointly at our August convention with representatives of an advertising firm called Heavy Creative, which has been commissioned to design and manage our outreach presentations. You have already seen their ads for our fund appeal. Next will come our membership campaign.

The chief advice from Heavy Creative is that APS speaks with too many voices and attempts to promote too many projects at one time, thus diffusing the effectiveness of every program. APS wasn't failing to communicate what we do, but the communications were largely ineffective because they were scattershot. The ad professionals lined up every APS ad, brochure, and poster to show that there was no continuity. They taught us that we must create a brand that everyone will recognize as APS, and then focus on one essential program at a time, resisting pressure to distract attention by responding to special appeals for particular constuencies or pet projects that don't fit our overall plan.

We summarize every program on the website; we report comprehensively to our members at our conventions; we hold town hall forums to answer questions and listen to suggestions at every national exhibition; and we give updates in the President's and Executive Director's columns in the AP each month. Anyone who is concerned about the issues voiced here will find answers in those forums.

To direct attention away from our fund drive and membership recruitment programs at this time would cost the Society dearly. If the problem that worries you were widespread, I might feel differently, but this chat board is literally the only place where these gripes and resentments fester, largely among people who are not APS members and have no interest in joining. I don't see why APS should be concerned about their expectations, because, as I wrote here last fall, nothing that APS does or does not do will ever satisfy them.

I would urge you to compare discussions here with discussions on the Virtual Stamp Club board. Over there we have lots of give-and-take, but it rarely descends to the meanness that is evident so frequently here. On VSC, there was a bit of frustration over the eBay reporting mechanism at first, but intelligent users fairly quickly figured out what problems would find solutions and which ones were beyond the capability of the system currently being tested. No one felt compelled to perpetuate a drumbeat of abuse against eBay and APS there.

February 12, 2004 Bob Hohertz

e-mails

Terence - did you get an e-mail from me today? Sent you one through ebay servers.

February 12, 2004 Terence Hines

Terry

February 12, 2004 Duncan Doenitz <croberts33_at_ juno_dot_com>

Secret e-mail

Due to a computer reformat a while back, I lost many of my e-mail addresses, including a few "secret e-mail" connections.

Bill W, I do have your address, and of course Dave F I have yours, but I do miss the other links, I feel out of the loop. And I do agree that there are things that should not be discussed in an open forum, but I'd enjoy restoring some of those earlier contacts. My address is above.

Dunc

 

February 12, 2004 Bill Weiss

wrw43@rcn.com
CHUCK; I think you may be right. I am actually suprised at the lack of posts on this subject, which makes me wonder if;
1. No-one cares;
2. Everyone's sleeping;
3. They are just TIRED of the subject.

PS I am away from the computer from 10PM (eastern time) to about 11PM so if I don't answer right away, don't worry, I will ASAP.

February 12, 2004 Frank

US military joke
While most acknowledge the USA militay are extremely effective and dedicated every armed force has its foulups. Here's a joke one and apologies to snake topicalists:
>
> The Differential Theory of US Armed Forces (Snake Model)
Upon encountering a snake in the Area of Operations (AO)...
> 1. Infantry: Snake smells them, leaves area.
> 2. Airborne: Lands on and kills the snake.
> 3. Armor: Drives over snake, laughs, and looks for more snakes.
> 4. Aviation: Has 12-digit grid coordinates of snake from GPS. FAC gives steer to target. Can't find snake. Returns to base for refuel, crew rest and manicure.
> 5. Ranger: Plays with snake, then eats it.
> 6. Field Artillery: Kills snake with massive Time On Target barrage with three Forward Artillery Brigades in support. Kills several hundred civilians as unavoidable collateral damage. Mission is considered a success and all participants (inc. cooks, mechanics and clerks) are awarded Silver Stars.
> 7. Special Forces: Makes contact with snake, ignores all State Department directives and Theater Commander Rules of Engagement by building rapport with snake and winning its heart and mind. Trains it to kill other snakes. Files enormous claim for travel pay settlement upon return.
8. Combat Engineer: Studies snake. Prepares in-depth doctrinal thesis in obscure 5 series Field Manual about how to defeat snake using ccountermobility assets. Complains that maneuver forces don't understand how to properly conduct doctrinal counter-snake ops.
9. Navy SEAL: Expends all ammunition and calls for naval gunfire support in failed attempt to kill snake. Snake bites SEAL and retreats to safety.Hollywood makes fantasy film in which SEALS kill myriad extremist snakes.
10. Navy: Fires off 50 cruise missiles from various types of ships, kills snake and makes presentation to Senate Appropriations Committee on how Naval forces are the most cost-effective means of anti-snake force projection.
11. Marine: Kills snake by accident while looking for souvenirs. Local
civilians demand removal of all US forces from Area of Operations.
12. Marine Recon: Follows snake, gets lost.
13. Combat Controllers: Guides snake elsewhere.
14. Para-Rescue Jumper: Wounds snake in initial encounter, then works
> feverishly to save snake's life.
15. Supply: (NOTICE Your anti-snake equipment is back ordered.)
16. Transport pilot: Air-drops expired snakebite kits two grid squares
away on roof of children's hospital.
17. F-15 pilot: Misidentifies snake as enemy Mi-24 Hind helicopter and
eengages with missiles. Crew chief paints snake kill on aircraft fuselage.
18. F-16 pilot: Finds snake, drops two CBU-87 cluster bombs, misses snake target, demolishes embassy 4 km east of snake due to weather. Cites inclement weather (Too Hot, Too Cold, Clear but overcast, Too dry with Rain, Unlimited ceiling with low cloud cover etc.) Suggests procurement of million-dollar, air-to-ground anti-snake bomb.
19. AH-64 Apache pilot: Unable to locate snake, cold-blooded snakes don't show well on infrared. Infrared only operable in desert AOs without power lines or SAMs.
20. UH-60 Blackhawk pilot: Finds snake on fourth pass after snake builds bonfire, pops smoke, lays out VS-17 to mark Landing Zone. Rotor wash blows snake into fire.
21. B-52 pilot: Pulls ARCLIGHT mission on snake, kills snake and every
> other living thing within two miles of target.
22. Missile crew: Lays in target coordinates to snake in 20 seconds, but can't receive authorization from National Command Authority to use
weapons.
23. Intelligence officer: Snake? What snake? Only four of 35 indicators of snake activity are currently active. We assess the potential for snake activity as LOW.
24. Judge Advocate General (JAG)lawyer: Snake declines to bite, citing grounds of professional courtesy

February 12, 2004 Chuck Harm <macalusoharm@sprintmail.com>

Bill - could you let me know your email address. I would like to ask your opinion on a couple of issues and am starting to believe that having these discussions on a public chat board is not productive.

February 12, 2004 Bill Weiss

Intent
CHUCK; I agree with you but at the same time I can fully understand why, in it's infancy, they may have felt the need to focus on US material. All along Ken Lawrence was saying that this relationship would take time. I don't like the idea that some crooked sellers are able to get away with selling misdescribed/fraudulent crap any more than the other good folks on this board, but it's obvious from the lack of response to DB's constant reporting that, for now, the focus is US, and all I am trying to say is that constant moaning about their unresponsiveness (eBay) to reports by anyone is not going to help. Your post initially at the time of the APS show in Norfolk, as well as ANNE'S and perhaps a few others, seemed to me to be extremely constructive and I applaud you both for them. Yours was repeated here yesterday.

February 12, 2004 David Benson

Bill, I have never reported any material that was not listed on the US Ebay site except some to Ebay.UK which was duly handled but not by Safeharbour UK. but by one of the British Pinkies I was corresponding with. Ebay.UK have stated that all replicas will only be allowed to be listed as Cinderellas and not in country listings, so far it is only for British material but I have been informed that this will later encompass all computer prints. I know others have reported to Ebay.Com about listings on Ebay.UK and Ebay.Germany to no avail,

David B.

February 12, 2004 prometheus

Mike E
spoil Sport -
Was there any Philatelic /station/expo cancel for this expo.??
Besides I did not think too rare I bought 6 last week .

 

February 12, 2004 Chuck Harm

Bill I fully believe they are just focusing on US material. I think the evidence is overwhelming. I am just disappointed with the communication of this policy (or lack thereof). There is no reason to create cynicism on the part of submitters if the system is not yet ready to handle them.

February 12, 2004 Bill Weiss

US/Foreign Intent
Lacking written/printed evidence that the initial intent was to focus on US material, may I offer the following evidence? David Benson (and probably others) have reported here that their efforts in reporting FOREIGN misdescribed/fraudulent material to eBay has, I believe, resulted in NO action taken by eBay. Now, can David, or anyone else, tell us about the results of their efforts to report Foreign listings to eBay, and what those results were, if any, or none??

February 12, 2004 Mike E

pro
re: silk slogan
It is actually a rather common slogan cancel, sorry to say. Probably worth a couple bucks, tops.
 

February 12, 2004 Chuck Harm

US Focus
As I read the quoted passages below I think there is no way to discern whether the US/worldwide comments refer to the fact that this is focused on ebay.com or on US stamps.
I believe all the press I see from ebay trumpets that they are solving the fraud problem in the stamp area with help from APS, not that they are making a start on fraud affecting US stamps on the US site perpetrated by high volume repeat offenders. And the comment in February AP states that the ebay partnership "is working well". Again no delimitation. I think this comes back to my point of expectation management or the lack thereof. Ebay clearly has no incentive to manage expectations - it is to there advantage to spin this as big as possible. I had hoped that APS would step up to setting reasonable expectations. Not clear to me that that will happen.

February 12, 2004 Jim Whitford-Stark

Terry
Sorry it was a bit beaten up, you have to carry those things with you at all times when in possession of shotgun.

February 12, 2004 David Benson

Brian, there are a few people searching at the moment and I have had a comment that it mentioned at one of the conventions but of course I wasn't there and at the moment can't find anything in print. It would be extremely helpful if someone from Ebay or APS made a statement either way. Everyone seems to go back to Dan Neary's statement which was later corrected,

David B.

February 12, 2004 prometheus

Brian
thanks for the comment , that makes me feel even more interested in it.

February 12, 2004 Terence Hines

Terry

February 12, 2004 David Benson

Jim, sorry, different reseller of Phloridian Phakes,

Just ask him what watermark it is on and the perf.

The problem with the reselling on plain paper either imperf. or perf is that some naive collector may presume they are proofs of some kind on unwatermarked paper,

David B.

February 12, 2004 Jim Whitford-Stark

Decided not to list today.
Don't want to get lost in the morasse of the UK FLD.
David
I think we are at cross-purposes, I meant KUT £1.

February 12, 2004 Brian McInturff

Pro
I'd have to say I don't remember seeing that one before.

February 12, 2004 eightish prometheus

HOW ABOUT A pOSTAL hISTORY qUESTION
Does anyone know if this expo SILK
Had any kinda Philatelic /station/expo official cancel.
or NO.

Here is the other side just a vintage Christmas Postcard see
 

February 12, 2004 Brian McInturff

Guys, I just looked in the AP, back to July, and I couldn't find any specific mention of US material. I'll stand with Bill W. though as I know I've read it somewhere. And yes Dave B. it may have been Dan's comments here in a representative fashion that I'm thinking of. The articles I targeted in the search were the Presidents Column and Bob Lambs column. I didn't bother with the rest. I searched July 03-Feb. 04

February 12, 2004 David Benson

Jim, check the corner letters and you will find (by coincidence of course) that they are from the same position as the Phloridian Phakes,

David B.

February 12, 2004 Jim Whitford-Stark

David
I'll do a sneaky "ask the seller a question".
Is the £1 venetian or brown-red?
I assume the latter.
 

February 12, 2004 David Benson

Jim, no, the only warnings are are Ebay.Com therefore any material listed on any site has no relevance to Stamp Watch Committee or APS.

There are many sellers outside the US who list on Ebay.Com and they are included and there are many listers in the US who list on overseas sites and they are not.

David B.

February 12, 2004 Jim Whitford-Stark

Since I have never done so, though I might in an hour or so, if one lists items on the eBay UK site, does it give the same warnings regarding fakes, forgeries etc, that are present on the eBay.com site?

February 12, 2004 Brian McInturff

Dave B. - Fair enough. I'll check when I get home and post back.

February 12, 2004 Bill Weiss

APS Meeting Minutes
I just got back from supper, and since I don't have access to the AP articles I am referring to, the best I could do was refer to my copies of several things which had been posted here in the padt year.
One of these was the minutes of the APS Meeting held in February of 2002, and one perytinent exchange was this;
"One problem so far is that the (Stamp Watch) committee is very focused on U.S., no one looks at foreign material right now, and Lamb thinks it should be broadened to worldwide material".
That is one clue that, as of Feb, 2002, the thrust of the APS involvement was intended to be US material. Also, when Jim Watson did such a great job compling questions to Bob Lamb, one of those questions was this;

"d. Will ways have to be found to meet the needs of a truly world-wide approach? e. Are such changes underway?
ANSWER; "We have not discussed "a truly world-wide" approach" with eBay".

Another question was; "Do the requirements apply to all eBay sites? For example, are eBay.uk and eBay.de included?"
ANSWER " You have to ask eBay that one. I don'y know".

Now I did NOT dream this stuff up. At minimum I have cited 3 quoted examples of the thrust being on US material, and further, I will (remember I play poker) bet the house that Lamb also referred to a US thrust or focus in other places, like the AP article(s) I refer to.

February 12, 2004 Roger Heath

Boldly
From Dan to Jim:
"If a seller based in the UK would like their listing viewable on the US site (ebay.com), that
seller has to abide by the policies of eBay.com AND eBay.co.uk.

That's clear enough for me! "viewable on the US site (ebay.com)"....abide by the policies of eBay.com AND eBay.co.uk.. Me thinks it time to enlarge the Committee. Let's see Discussion = December 1, 2003, (Ebay Time); today = February 12, 2004 (Gregorian), plenty of time in my opinion to have asked for more help.

Roger

February 12, 2004 Roger Heath

Ebay maybe half pregnant
Jim,
My primary thought coming out of a re-read of the "discussion" was the effort Jim made to organize the questions collected from posts made by Zealots (in Minkus that is between Palestine and Israel), not Zanzibar and Zululand.
Sure seems to me that sales appearing on Ebay.com are subject to scrutiny by the Committee, even though the seller is beyond the 3 mile limit. These are the posts I find important:


12/01/03 3:05 PM (# 81 of 103)
Jim,

The APS/SCW program currently is focused only on listings on eBay.com (regardless on the
location of the seller/buyer). To the extent that the program is successful, other international
eBay sites will evaluate launching something similar for the local site.

Dan



12/01/03 3:18 PM (# 91 of 103)
philatarium,

All fake stamps are to be marked and listings must include an image of the marking. This is in
the stamps "code of conduct" for selling on eBay: http://www.stamps.org/ebay/ebay_code.htm

Dan

12/01/03 3:21 PM (# 94 of 103)

Jim,

If a seller based in the UK would like their listing viewable on the US site (ebay.com), that
seller has to abide by the policies of eBay.com AND eBay.co.uk. So under this scenario, the
SCW/APS would be reviewing this listing if it is posted on eBay.com.

Dan

12/01/03 3:33 PM (# 101 of 103)

David,

It is items on ebay.com. This includes some overseas sellers.

Dan

Dan-
You got off easy, since you didn't need to follow-up on any of the tough questions. I would love to see official answers to Jim's questions.

February 12, 2004 David Benson

Brian, it has been mentioned many times here but it comes from the conflicting remarks of Dan Neary which has never been confirmed even though he has been asked by many people.

I haven't read AP and it may be there. Our Philatelic library doesn't receive any copies and I don't know if any members of my club receive it.

David B.

February 12, 2004 Dunc

The objective...

Without dredging through the whole exchange, if I recall correctly the stated objective was to weed out the chronic bad sellers, not those who made simple listing mistakes. the pattern of abuse was to be the guideline.

Seemed simple at the time, seems simple now too, but somehow it doesn't get done.

Dunc

"What we have heeauh is a failyuh tuh c'mmunicate."

February 12, 2004 Brian McInturff

D2, It seems from the "workshop" they never said just US. But, I'd have to agree with Bill that I read it somewhere. I'll check the back issues of the AP and see if it's there. Or maybe it was a posting on here only and several of us got that confused.

February 12, 2004 David Benson

Bill, there is nothing that states only US material is being checked, it intimates all material listed on the US site,

David B.

February 12, 2004 David Benson

Dunc. & Bill,


there are few comments on there that contradict each other,





jimbo (360 )(view author's auctions)
12/01/03 3:18 PM (# 92 of 103)

Dan,

When you say that the scope is "The APS/SCW program currently is focused only on listings on eBay.com (regardless on the location of the seller/buyer)." does that mean that it applies to listings originally made through the eBay US site or to listings seen by viewers of the eBay US Site? I see items originally listed in Australia, UK, and Canada when I look at ebay.com listings. Such listings sometimes have problems as well and will be reported. Will they be treated the same as other items in the process or not?

Jim

stamps@ebay.com
12/01/03 3:21 PM (# 94 of 103)
If a seller based in the UK would like their listing viewable on the US site (ebay.com), that seller has to abide by the policies of eBay.com AND eBay.co.uk. So under this scenario, the SCW/APS would be reviewing this listing if it is posted on eBay.com.

Dan

dbenson (4214 )(view author's auctions)
12/01/03 3:26 PM (# 98 of 103)

Dan, thanks,

I think the answer you gave to Jimbo is erroneous as it has been stated that only material orginally listed on Ebay.com is being checked by the SWC.

David Benson


stamps@ebay.com
12/01/03 3:33 PM (# 101 of 103)

David,

It is items on ebay.com. This includes some overseas sellers.

Dan

This is where the problem stems from, still not a definte answer of what it includes,



David B.

February 12, 2004 Dunc

Must've worked...
'Cuz it sure got quiet here.

Dunc

"If you need me I'll be at Frajola's."

February 12, 2004 Duncan D

Did the link work?

And do you need to register at eBay to read it?

Dunc

"I before E except after C and in Budweiser"

February 12, 2004 Dunc

The meeting

Hope this works...

Try here.

Dunc

February 12, 2004 Bill Longley

I think the very fact that participants have to wrack their brains trying to remember what/how/when material is/isn't/maybe evaluated by ebay/APS points to the need for better communication.

February 12, 2004 Bill Weiss

David B.
I wish I knew some way to retrieve the original exchanges that took place between Bob Lamb, eBay and those asking the questions. Even if I'm wrong about that (which I doubt) I believe that Bob Lamb also spoke about the "US only" aspect of the relationship in the pages of the Amercan Philatelist, sometime in the past two-three issues. If anyone has a copy of the AP for the last few months, I am pretty certain thast Lamb extensively discussed the eBay relationship there. Perhaps someone can find the appropriate article?

February 12, 2004 Brian McIinturff

Anyone remember what that Aircraft Carrier final bid was? When I gave up watching it was around $190,000,000. I started to ask you guys to pool money with me but then I didn't want us arguing over who got it on the weekends.

February 12, 2004 Roger Heath

Surly
Sad to think that in the world of electronic communications, emails, and chat boards, one is required to travel great distances in an airplane (Blue Angels don't count) at great expense to be taken seriously when voicing opinions about a topic of concern to many collectors. I'm busy today working on a special recipe, but lack one ingredient, which you can only guess. Retorix tests all samples for for me prior to shipping product off island. Bloody Mary sounds good.

Roger
 

February 12, 2004 David Benson

Bill,

I remember now and my question is the same one that I have been asking and had no reply.

" If material listed on non US sites is included and not if non US material is included. "

As far as I know there has been absolutely nothing stated about non US material not having the same checking procedures as US material. As I said yours was the 1st. comment and was repeated later which seems to prove that it was only verbal comments and nothing in writing.

David B.

February 12, 2004 David Benson

Bill, will have to check on that one. If it is correct it should have been mentioned in other places.

David B.

February 12, 2004 Jim Whitford-Stark

Also trying to snow out here in the desert.
According to my students on the Midland (Texas) end of this mornings lecture, it was snowing up there.

February 12, 2004 Brian R

Roger
You do seem a little surly today. What up? Are the tourists clogging up your favoite beach again? Esnipe down? Didja run outta rum? It's OK to tell me, I am the official EUSC bartender. Let me mix you up some sort of tropical uplifter, so you can chuckle heartliy, at the foot of snow covering my drive. LOL

February 12, 2004 Bill Weiss

David B.
Now David, I could be wrong about this, but I distinctly seem to recall when that big online meeting took place where Bob Lamb and eBay were answering questions, that YOU specifically asked whether foreign material was covered. Again, I seem to recall that Lamb's answer (or eBay's) was along the lines of "for now, the major thrust is for US material, to hopefully be expanded to everything eventually". The quotation marks are mine, I'm only paraphrasing, but am I dreaming about that exchange??
If I'm NOT dreaming, then how did you not know? If I AM dreaming, I then apologize.

February 12, 2004 David Benson

Bill, the reason I didn't pick it up (apart from the fact that all the items I had filed queries about were being ignored) was that many people were saying that all material listed on the US site was being vetted, not only US material. That was the reason I was incessantly enquiring about queries from other members. Yours was the 1st. comment that stated that it was mainly US material.

David B.

February 12, 2004 Bill Weiss

Roger H.
Indeed, I thank you for your opinions. Glad you checked that Jet lot, but you need to look in his "Other Lots For Sale" to see the Grandaddy of all lots! I wonder if that $10,000,000. price is a record high for eBay? Anyone know?
Trust me, a Penna. Zip Code only guarantees that you will be damn cold at the same time that guys like you are nice and warm!

February 12, 2004 Brian R

Bill W
10 million? Heck, that one has a BIN of just over one million! I'll bet a sucessful auctioner like you can afford that. Why don't you go halfs with Ken L on it? It looks like its a two seater. After the 345H sells, you gotta park that money somewhere. Imagine the arrival you'd make at Ameripex in 2006, showing up in that!!!

February 12, 2004 Roger Heath

Jet
Bill W -
There's a problem with that auction, scan shows all. The plane doesn't have any wheels. One must build a rail similar to Wright Brothers for take offs. The picture off this plane illustrates its last landing just prior to touch-down. Hate to have such a negative attitude, but I'll get over it. Weather here today in the neighborhood around 80°F ± 1°, gentle breezes, sunny with light clouds forming during the afternoon. Perfect weather for stamps!

Roger

Roger

February 12, 2004 Duncan Doenitz

Photorotowhatzits that meet the size requirements for copies?

I doubt it.

Ken you mentioned that one of the "bad boys" complies with the rule that stamp reproductions must be resized. I'd like to discuss that further with you via e-mail, since we cannot name names here. If the seller is who I suspect, he does duplicate some items in enlarged or reduced size. SOME. But certainly not all or most. Damn, I hate how those guys game the system.

Check your e-mail.

Dunc

February 12, 2004 Roger Heath

Location is Everything
To all the Bills, all the Davids, and all the Jims,
One can only conclude from previous posts that if one doesn't have a PA zip code, one is not entitled to comment, so I won't.

Roger

February 12, 2004 Bill Weiss

Ten Million Dollar eBay Lot!
BRIAN R; I must admit that your link below provides us with some much-needed entertainment. It kind of shows us how insignificant the philatelic market is on eBay compared to ONE lot! Thanks.

February 12, 2004 Brian R

hmmmmm.
Let's try the link again.....GO FOR IT!

February 12, 2004 Brian R

In order to change the topic, I kind of remember that there are a few here that are involved in those real time aerial "dogfight" leagues on the net. Gentelmen, I'm sure that's fun, but isn't it time you moved up a notch? GO FOR IT!

February 12, 2004 Bill Weiss

David B.
Oh, yes, I indeed did say that over there. I thought you were saying that I specifically mentioned vetting - which I knew I did not do - as I normally associate that word with Antiques, where the top rung shows will have a group of professionals vet the material being offered. I knew I didn't use it in the context you said I did.

Well indeed, I don't understand how you didn't clearly understand that fact - that the initial primary thrust was for US material? I picked up on that fact early on and I wonder if others did too? Your right, had you been able to pick up on it quickly, it might have saved your incessant grumbling and wasted time.

February 12, 2004 11.59 am Colin Judd http://mysite.freeserve.com/xzephyr_stamps
 

Colin

 

February 12, 2004 David Benson

Bill,

this was your comment on Richard's board,

Why is it so difficult to understand that this relationship and it's workings are in their infancy? APS has stated that their initial thrust is in the US material, and as time goes on will hopefully expand into Foreign,

KL comments on this board,

Neary said that the system seems to be working well for U.S. material, and that eBay hopes to find a similar solution for fraudulently misdescribed foreign material, but as yet does not have the ability to solve this problem.

If I had known what was happening it would have saved " in your words " incessant grumbling " and hours of work filling in forms about misdescribed and fraudulent items,

David B.

February 12, 2004 Bill Weiss

David B.
I'm pretty sure you have me mixed up with someone else. I do not recall saying anything about vetting. It may have been Bill Longley or Bill Demwolf? Too many "BILLS" here!

February 12, 2004 David Benson

Bill, while you are here, I would like to thank you for the information you gave yesterday about non US material being vetted. It was a great revelation to know that it has been admitted by Ebay as it was getting very frustrating reporting non US items and nothing happening.

David B.

February 12, 2004 Bill Weiss

Threads and Links
DAVE F; I honestly "feel your pain" in this, but the old expression "cutting off your nose to spite your face" or moreso "Don't shoot the messenger" immediately comes to mind. All you would need to do to retain interesting and/or important links and threads is to prefex them with a simple statement not unlike what you just said;

"Please do not interpret the presence or absence of links or threads to be a statement or opinion by this moderator. They are merely a presentation of conversations which occured on this board which may be of interest to others". Or some such!

February 12, 2004 David Benson

KL.,

If I remember correctly from the APS minutes you were against the marking of classical & Postal forgeries but the majority of those attending the meeting voted for it. I am glad now that commonsense got through and that these no longer have the stigma of a handstamp on the reverse if they are listed on Ebay,

David Benson

February 12, 2004 10:55 Dave F. (moderator)

So that there will be no misunderstanding, I have removed all special threads and discussions from this site, including past EUSC discussions. Some of these were 'works in progress', as was the original expertization topic which seemed to have unwittingly indicted me in the eyes of the philatelic community.

I still remain stunned at how my intentions were misinterpreted. For the same reason, I have also removed the links page, which also needed additional work. Again, I do not want anyone to misinterpret the presence or absence of links to be a statement of any kind, nor do I ever again want to be accused of 'harboring' anything or anyone.

At present, the links to Richard Frajola's board, the SCADS site, Bill Claghorn's site, and how to report a fraudulent eBay auction remain.

I hope this will address the concerns of readers and posters to this board.

February 12, 2004 David Benson

KL, thanks for the information

" APS will not allow the sale of computer-generated or photocopied replicas of philatelic material in our marketplaces, whereas eBay merely requires that such material be properly described. Collectible fakes and forgeries (of the Fournier/Sperati sort, or postal counterfeits, or espionage and propaganda forgeries, or fantasy issues) may be sold if properly identified, and need not be marked. Genuine material faked or altered to deceive collectors is allowed only if it is indelibly marked and fully described; we prefer that it not be sold at all. "

I hope this information gets dispersed as soon as possible to save the mutilation of classical forgeries.

Every time an item is listed on Ebay.Com the seller agrees to this,

" eBay reserves the right, in its sole discretion, to remove any stamp or stamp related item listed on its site if eBay believes that the listing of the item is inconsistent with the selling guidelines set out by the American Philatelic Society, or inconsistent with eBay's goals of promoting the hobby and maintaining a safe trading environment. "

If that is correct then computer or photocopied fakes should not be allowed to be sold on Ebay.Com.

David Benson

February 12, 2004 Lars B

Rumelange and German Bank Accoung
Replace "incidentally" with "accidentally", it has been a long day...

@Bjorn:

If you have no special reason for choosing Hypovereinsbank, I would recommend Deutsche Postbank, easy to use, fast and reliable and cheap. No cost with a monthly turnover of 1.000 Euro.

 

February 12, 2004 Lars B <alpha2 at pt dot lu>

Rumelange
Anne

As I haven´t received your address concerning the postal stationary to Rumelange yet, I hope I haven´t deleted it incidentally... =D

Best regards,

Lars

February 12, 2004 prometheus

Duncan
Olde Dead Sycamore in back yard gave up a LImB took down the outside line small singe on corner of house, neat effects for a little while .Dead tree falling.
 

February 12, 2004 Anne

Vic: You're right about concerns for the future of the hobby. In some ways, stamps are the ultimate "pre-owned" collectible. The vast majority of items in our collections once belonged to someone else and will eventually have new owners once we dispose of them. Relatively experienced collectors may have enough knowledge to keep their own collections relatively free of album weeds, but fakes, forgeries, and altered items remain a problem for the hobby at large.

February 12, 2004 Duncan Doenitz

Hiya Prometheus

Sorry to hear that you had a fire.

Any details to report? Does this mean that instead of fresh fish, you now have smoked fish? Enquiring minds want to know.

Dunc

February 12, 2004 noon prometheus

How is it put
Oh Yeah Good Continuation

February 12, 2004 Victor Horadam <horadam1@airmail.net>

General
As an aside. I mentioned before that the problem with fraud on eBay for book collectors is also becoming a problem. In one of the recent issues of Firsts magazine, there was an article about the same problem and the concerns of the ABAA (similar type organization for books). My main collecting interest is books and I constantly see errors in listings on eBay for books, many are innocent for sure, but many are just plain deceptions. I'm sure all of the collecting categories have the same problem. That said, I still think eBay is a positive force in Philatelics, the system just needs to be tweaked. The only question is how to do that and still maintain its current legal standings.

February 12, 2004 Victor Horadam <horadam1@airmail.net>

I think it is more of a global concern of intermediate and experienced collectors as to what it might do to the hobby. Not just the existence of the new fakes in collections, but the number of beginners who enter the hobby in good faith and find themselves duped into buying something that is not what it was presented to be. And then exiting the hobby. I know that it is the responsibility of collectors to beware, ultimately. But, it is just a general concern about the hobby that pushes most of us for the concerns. I know that I pretty much quit coin collecting 20 years ago due to grading problems with the coins I bought. I would hate to see many new stamp collectors doing the same.

February 12, 2004 Ken Lawrence

various
Matt L,

Yes, I meant eBay fraud is not a widespread concern among APS members.

Bill L,

Thank you. I understood your question to be sincere, and tried to answer it with respect. I have quit replying to zealots, in hope that Dave F and I can achieve a better grasp of each other's contribution.

Copyright is a two-edged sword. As I writer, I need it to protect my livelihood. But cachet makers are furious that licensing requirements prevent them from using cachet designs they like, or of selling them on eBay, so they demand that APS do something for them. The net result is that the APS Board has been reluctant to enter that thicket. But as I wrote about every other issue, I want members to attend our meetings and to make their wishes known. Many do, but never enough.

I had thought the anti-counterfeiting statutes would be sufficient for eBay to forbid the reproductions, but a purchaser reported that they comply with the law, being sufficiently enlarged or reduced in scale to meet the requirements, and also meeting eBay's requirements by being indelibly marked and properly described. Besides those points, U.S. stamps issued before 1978 were not copyrighted and are in the public domain.

Jim W,

Please be patient. The way APS works, the Board meets openly and votes on many things. After the meeting, the Secretary (Lloyd de Vries) drafts the minutes. This is a cumbersome task that takes time. Upon completion of the draft, he circulates them by e-mail. Board members suggest additions and corrections. A final draft is circulated for adoption. After the Board has approved the minutes, they are posted at the stamps.org website. However, I did read the entire motion as adopted on the VSC board, I think on the thread about reports from Norfolk. Go to VSC, click on Board, scroll down through the subjects.
 

February 12, 2004 Bill Weiss

Nice Chat
I just had a nice telephone chat witgh someone who posts here on occasion, and it was very enjoyable. I won't reveal his name unless he wants to come on here and post that it was him. He enjoys reading both the chatboards. Is as annoyed as I am about the daily APS/eBay moans from a few (no names), but overall likes the boards. It's great to actually talk to someone whose posts you've seen here and adds a whole new dimension to the board conversations.
I thought BRIAN M's post below was right on target and think Bill Longley has a great idea too. I also continue to be thankful to DAVE FRICK for providing this venue despite the trials and tribulations he has endured.

February 12, 2004 Victor Horadam <horadam1@airmail.net>

Paul B.: My experience with Amway was in 1970. I delivered products for them to buyers for exactly 2 days. For 2 days work, I was paid $1.50, much less than the $0.75/hour I could get at a regular job. I told them bye-bye very quickly. Now it is mostly a pyramid scheme, the reason people hang on is to hope they can get multiple enrollees below them and get money for no work.

February 12, 2004 Bill Longley

Ken L. Thanks for the reply. My question was a sincere one and I didn't intend to get myself included in the zealot category by asking it.

Regarding forgeries on ebay, is it possible that the APS could act as a clearing house for the report of forgeries that may/do violate copyrights? As an example, photo-roto forgeries of Canada are no longer being sold on ebay because of a mechanism in place to notify RPSC and then Canada Post, who then file a VERO complaint to have the item removed. Net result = photo-roto forgeries are not even listed anymore on ebay. Mission accomplished.

Perhaps the APS could turn this into a positive result.
Ebay seller lists photo-roto forgery which possibly breaks UPU member nation's copyright to the stamp
Ebay forwards complaint to APS, APS examines and forwards to UPU member. UPU member files VeRo complaint.
APS gets paid more money from UPU/ebay to assist operation. APS gains international recognition in the fight against forgeries, strengthens international ties to UPU members, etc etc. and perhaps an initiative like this could attract some international financing which could go towards APS goals (ie match factory).

It works for Canada, why not the whole world?

 

February 12, 2004 Frank Reubel

Ebay sure does shine as the premier flea to flea market. Maybe APS has adequate flea guard - maybe they are a Society of fleas.

February 12, 2004 Chris

Why I Still Like eBay A Lot
It gives me access to a wide range of material that I cannot get locally.
A little background information. The two nearest stamp stores are 45 minutes
drive away, in opposite directions. They are both run by very nice people, but the
material they have is necessarily pretty limited.

Three weeks ago I decided to start working on Austria. I already have some material from
my father's collection, but wanted a good start. I purchased three eBay lots, one of 1000 different,
one of 200 different and one collection of 470. They have all arrived and I can now start working through them.
When I am done, I will have about 1100-1200 different stamps in my Austrian album. That will take care of the
the common definitives and commem sets in an economical and efficient manner. At that point I can pay more attention
to the rarer and more complicated issues as time and money permit.

Is eBay perfect? Not at all. But where else could I find that much material of the sort that I am looking for for $80 total?

Chris - cheapskate, but with 25,000+ different stamps in my collection, largely due to eBay

February 12, 2004 Brian McInturff

Chris
Maybe DNA testing. Wonder what that would cost.

February 12, 2004 Brian McInturff

I would agree. Most ebay talk is about the deals found or the profit made. Not one person I talked to at Norfolk or at the local show here brought up the fraud issue.
To another degree trying to police ebay of all the misdescribed items is just impossible. What about other auction venues, local shows, flea markets, etc. Do we expect these to be policed. I think not. It's not a perfect world. I see posting all the time about items misdescribed and someone complains and is insistant that the item be pulled and when it's not then all h*ll breaks loose(for them). But, what about the person that sells an item for 2 dollars and it's worth several hundred. Then the bragging begins about the deal they found. Well, that's sorta taking advantage of an unknowing individual. The shoe is on the other foot now. Maybe you should've told the person it's worth a lot more than what it's selling for. Point is people need to do their homework(for the most part before plunking down hard earned cash. It's a learning curve everyone has to go through. You can't weed out everyone. As an old saying goes: A lock only keeps an honest person honest.

February 12, 2004 Chris

Now Here's A Collectible!
Want something to go with you penny blacks?
Buy some of Queen Victoria's hair http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=14428&item=2223146457
The guy also has hair from the Red Baron and George Washington.
How do you have that expertized?

Chris - he also has Marilyn Monroe, but not minky hair, drat

February 12, 2004 Jim Watson

PS: I also searched the Virtual Stamp Club site and was unable to find the referenced material. It probably is just not my day. :-(

February 12, 2004 Matt Liebson

Ken: re-reading your message, if you mean that concerns about eBay fraud are not foremost on the minds of many APS members, that is certainly the case.

February 12, 2004 Matt Liebson

Ken L.: you just said that "At present eBay concerns occupy a huge percentage of the debate here, but only a tiny part of most APS members' interest."

The first half of that statement is certainly true. I doubt that the second actually is -- has the APS done any survey that indicates that eBay is (or is not) an interest of members. I will tell you that when I am at shows around here eBay is an almost-constant topic of conversation.

February 12, 2004 Ken Lawrence

Anne

The APS-eBay live auction netted $7,700 for APS. Members, leaders, and staff seemed gratified by that result.

For eBay, stamp sales are, as Dan Neary said several times, not even a rounding error for its revenues. Within reason, eBay is willing to help us eliminate major cheats from the hobby, essentially the same ones we have pursued outside of the eBay "environment." Having devised a system that works pretty well to eliminate cheats who deal in altered and mnisdescribed U.S. material, they and we are looking for a way to extend that to foreign material, but do not yet have the ability.

Some members of the APS Board are concerned about issues of legal liability. APS cannot and will not be claiming credit for any actions taken or not taken by eBay, and certainly will not be naming names, except in cases where disciplinary measures are imposed by APS under our bylaws and enforcement mechanisms.

What we have here is the Rashomon effect. Most APS members wander into the eBay flea market and regard it as a good thing and a place to enjoy, though taking note of occasional problems. A smaller number see eBay as a jungle, and demand armed escorts to protect everyone from vicious beasts. These views, and others as well, are probably all valid, but they cannot be reconciled except through some democratic process.

At present eBay concerns occupy a huge percentage of the debate here, but only a tiny part of most APS members' interest. Within the limits of our precious resources, APS attempts to address every legitimate concern, and will continue to do so.

February 12, 2004 Ken Lawrence

Bill Longley

My discussions with collectors have not left me with that impression. On this chat board, zealots have tried to graft all their pet peeves of eBay onto the APS relationship. To the rest of the hobby, and to the broad APS membership, the answer to misdescribed stamps on eBay, as everywhere else, is stamp expertizing, a service that APS offers through APEX, and which eBay promotes along with PF and PSE. The purpose of the reporting, monitoring, and review agreement is primarily to identify chronic cheats, not naifs. Once they have been identified and put on notice, repeated violations result in exclusion from eBay. But to a cranky group that seems to gather exclusively on this board, that isn't enough. I respect that point of view, and I have urged everyone who holds that view to attend APS Board meetings and General Meetings, which are open to every member, to put forth that point of view, and to suggest how things could be done better. No one has done that. Critics here prefer the Rush Limbaugh version of policy making.

Based on some of these experiences, the APS Board revised and clarified our policy on selling fakes and forgeries through the APS Sales Division and on Stampstore. Someone who has better computer skills than I might want to retrieve that precise text and post it here. I know it's been posted on the Virtual Stamp Club. One difference between APS and eBay policies is that APS will not allow the sale of computer-generated or photocopied replicas of philatelic material in our marketplaces, whereas eBay merely requires that such material be properly described. Collectible fakes and forgeries (of the Fournier/Sperati sort, or postal counterfeits, or espionage and propaganda forgeries, or fantasy issues) may be sold if properly identified, and need not be marked. Genuine material faked or altered to deceive collectors is allowed only if it is indelibly marked and fully described; we prefer that it not be sold at all.

Like everything else we do, changing these policies occurred only after careful consideration. A committee chaired by Steve Washburne considered all points of view on these issues, and presented its report to the Board. The proposal was adopted after being amended during the discussion. All these actions will be reported fully to members in The American Philatelist. Beyond that, it's difficult to correct misperceptions of APS by non-members, particularly in an environment that propagates so many mistaken or otherwise inadequate reports.

February 12, 2004 13:53 CET Paul B.

Quixtar - Amway.
BTW... Got a colleague who is a Amway dealer. I must admit she has turned into a sort of religious devotee representing Amway. When I ask her how sales, finances are doing it's obvious to me there must be more to it than mere profit. My guess is she is spending more money on Amway than she's earning. How empty ones life must be if a corporation must fill ones spiritual life - the longing for reason, fulfilment and belonging in life.

February 12, 2004 13:45 CET Paul B. <philaweb at (remove) yahoo dot dk>

VeRo Program
Jan N Looks like a misidentification on the eBay auction number to me. Have a look here as to what Quixtar represents.

February 12, 2004 03:18 Jim Watson

PS: Let's not poison the well.

February 12, 2004 Jan Nackaerts

VeRo Program


This is a link to the cover :

FDC Europa CEPT Portugal Azores

Just a normal FDC issued by the Portuguese postoffice

February 12, 2004 Dave P

Vero program
Jan The only circumstances that I can think of would be where the cover included a protected trademark or logo. It sometimes happens that this is licensed out to the Postal Authority and any other publisher willing to pay the fee. If used by another FDC publisher without a fee it would contravene copyright law. In the UK the matter arose over the use of the Commonwealth Games logo. Seems very harsh to pick on a listing for a single FDC though. Of course it could just be an auction number screw up!

February 12, 2004 Jan Nackaerts

February 12, 2004 Paolo Bagaglia

Yet Another Philatelic Website
I find this site here particulraly interesting for Italy collectors, the "FORUM" especially (warning, it's in Italian language).
Regarding expertisers (or 'expertizers'): from this page linked in the previous website you can access to this where there is a list in alphabetic order with pictures of signatures of relevant experts in the field. Here you can see how certificates and signatures of other experts look like.
It can be useful if you find a sign on the reverse of a stamp or on a cover front (or reverse) of yours that you don't know if it is an expertise mark or just owners initials... or something else.
Paolo
 

February 12, 2004 Paolo B.

Raybaudi Experts Website
Raybaudi Experts Website (http://www.raybaudi.it).
I find this page particularly useful to interpret quality or type of stamp depending on the position of signatures.
Paolo

February 12, 2004 Paolo B.

Anne
From what I understood of what's written on this page of the "stamp Chat" (100 posts), I'd rather use the singular regarding that wish, or prayer.
But then again I ma not w/o sin and could have misinterpreted or missed some facets of the whole picture polyhedric. Just IMO the questions that were posed on the board should not be comparable in difficulty with a Wittgenstein's proposition ;-)

Good night, Mr. President Roger!
Paolo (one for one, all for one)

February 12, 2004 Duncan Doenitz

1928 special printings on booklet paper

You are right, Ken, those stamps from the 1928 printing are interesting.

I admit I haven't really done my homework completely on these, instead I just waded in and started searching for them, and from what I've seen so far, its about like comparing flat plate printings vs coil issues.

If I'm correct and I've already found the tough E13 on booklet paper, apparently a set can be put together fairly quickly. I see a few items at the APS Stamp Store that look like good candidates too.

Hopefully they'll eventually be added to the Scott catalog. For some of the stamps, the color varieties and the noticeable more square dimensions make searching a quick process. Here's a likely candidate I picked up on eBay last night.

Great fun!

Dunc

February 12, 2004 Roger Heath

Hi Anne
We must have posted simultaneously, except mine was an attempt at levity (that is not Jewish humor) while your post is a very thoughtful stir the simmering pot type of post. I'm actually sitting here chckling to myself wondering how long it will be before the stats appear. I'm not holding my breath, licking my hinges, or falling asleep until I see an answer to your moderating post. You are entitled to one of these also <);>)

Roger

February 12, 2004 Roger Heath

Weather Reports
John F - David B
Re the Temperature on the Board: Couldn't have said it any better myself. "excessive heat" "we had some rain a bit ago. Cooled things off a little anyway."

David M - );>)

Roger

February 12, 2004 Anne

oh yeah, I forgot---member Egypt Study Circle, APS, and ebay user since Nov., 1998.

February 12, 2004 Anne

These are just a few random late night thoughts. As always, I'd really like to see peace on the board. Good night to all and to all sweet dreams of honest sellers, prices of perfin lots perforating the ceiling, and an end to Stamp Chat Wars.

February 11, 2004 John Forsyth

Yes, we had some rain a bit ago. Cooled things off a little anyway.

February 11, 2004 David Benson

John, it must have been the same temp. there as well. Have the thunderstorms hit there yet,

David B.

February 11, 2004 David Benson

John, no, only once been to Status and that was about 8 years ago.
My daughter's school was cancelled today because of the excessive heat (over 40C. here) and of course she made arrangements with some of her friends to go the movies at Castle Mall in Castle Hill. Guess who they picked to pick up and deliver them. My wife and I just spent the time whilst they were at the movie to eat and shop. The whole exercise took about 5 1/2 hours. Luckily tomorrow will be cooler ans school's on again.

David B.

February 11, 2004 John Forsyth

D2
You go to the Status Auction?

February 11, 2004 John Forsyth

I am not aware of any "crook" that has been booted since the Ebay/APS deal. Enlighten me.

February 11, 2004 David Benson

Ken, back after a hard day shopping,

just a minor correction, I am not a dealer, I am a collector, exhibitor and philatelic judge. I do not go around making personal insults to you, would you please stop making insults about me.

regarding the certificate on the India Blue paper 8p. I stand by what I said, it is not of any use unless it has a Royal London certificate as they would be able to compare it against known genuine examples as it is an extremely difficult stamp to verify and I think (but I am not sure) that it has to have a clear readable date for it to be properly certified. If this is all that perturbs may I suggest that the owner sends it to London and I will pay the expenses.

At least you and others have admitted that non US material is not being scrutinised as much as US and that is what I have been mentioning for the last few months as to me it appeared that all non US queries were being completely ignored. It most probably is an internal Ebay problem that only US queries are forwarded to the SWC and the others are just promptly deleted.

Could you please answer the query regarding what material is covered by SWC, whether it is material available to US buyers or only material lkisted on the US site.

David B.

February 11, 2004 Bill Longley

APEX Certificates
A serious question, which ties into the APS/Ebay thingy.

If the APS is generally perceived to be the brains behind enforcing the rules against fakes, forgeries etc, AND the problem isn't solved, doesn't that reflect negatively not only on the APS but directly on the expertise of APEX?

APS, the very body that oversees the removal of fakes and forgeries, is then seen as not doing their job, and the complaining now falls onto the APS, not ebay. Good move ebay, divide and conquer.

The new generation of internet-based collectors could unfortunately tie their opinion of ebay with that of the APS regarding forgeries, which could then reflect badly (by association) on APEX.

Bill Longley
 

February 11, 2004 Victor Horadam <horadam1@airmail.net>

Jim G: {:O)

February 11, 2004 Bill Weiss

BILL D; Thanks for the nice words about the perfins lot. It was a big suprise.

Now that everthing seems to be a bit calmer here, I am quitting for the night!

February 11, 2004 Ken Lawrence

Dunc

Let's get back to 1928 special paper printings. It's more interesting, more virtuous, and less contentious than illegals on eBay. :-)

February 11, 2004 Ken Lawrence

Bill Dempwolf

The predators who worried me the most are no longer selling on eBay, and a couple of others are now being carefully observed. The dodges that used to make possible their return under changed identities have been tightened considerably. If you have reported any instances of chronic fraud that haven't been addressed, please let me know.

February 11, 2004 Ken Lawrence

Jim (jaywild)

The October 4 1851 EKU date is from Wilson Hulme, curator of the National Postal Museum and senior author of the plate-by-plate report of 3¢ 1951-57 EKU dates in the Classics Chronicle. I believe he said that the cover is Tom Alexander's.

I myself own a dull reddish brown 3¢ 1851 dated October 8 1851, plated as 4L1i by Dick Celler, therefore Scott 10.

February 11, 2004 Bill Dempwolf

Bill

February 11, 2004 David Moser <stamphick@dospalos.org>

David
 

February 11, 2004 Ken Lawrence

Dave F

I have not questioned your motives. I know you are a loyal and dedicated APS member. I thought it was absurd when you accused me of presenting a bad image for APS at a time when I was receiving lots of encouraging e-mails from readers of this Board who love the APS as much as I do, but I also recognized that the people who wrote those comments to you were not the ones writing to me.

So let me repeat. A lot of constructive and useful discussions occur here, and I am grateful to you for hosting them. But my other point is equally true. When I first read the postings here at Bill Weiss's, the most fervently expressed messages were those that attacked APS and whined endlessly about eBay.

Also, although I thought it was a mistake to archive and link idiotic attacks on APEX, I would have kept my peace about it if my replies had been given equal billing.

I don't have answers to these problems beyond what I suggested originally, and I don't want you to quit. But I wish that the people here who loathe me and/or APS so much would accept that we all have heard their point of view and do not need to wake up to read it again each morning.

When we move away from discussing the APS-eBay relationship, good discussions often ensue until, on cue, David B feels the urge to taunt us. I had quit rising to that bait a while ago, and I'm quitting again now.

February 11, 2004 Bill Dempwolf

Bill

February 11, 2004 Ken Lawrence

APS-eBay continued

Duncan, Chuck, Bill, and John,

I do not disrespect your opinions, but with all due respect, I believe you’re mistaken, at least as regards the sentiment of APS members generally. I am not an authority on eBay, but I do know stamp collectors. I think John Hotchner is the only person who knows more stamp collectors than I do, and both of us know so many because we receive so much mail and meet so many in person. When I had a monthly column in the American Philatelist, I had the highest readership of any stamp writer. In Linn's I was within a rounding error of John Hotchner's and Pat Herst's readerships.

In talking to collectors ever since I got drawn into this morass, I have questioned them closely about eBay. I believe the responses I can report are representative.

Furthermore, if I’m wrong in my understanding of collector sentiment, it’s easy to replace me, just as my team replaced the incumbents who grew out-of-touch with what our members desire. APS is thoroughly democratic, and holds elections every two years. My fellow Vice President Ada Prill became known throughout the hobby four years ago for her criticism of high uncomfortable booths at APS and ASDA shows, handily defeating established leaders the first time she ran for office. Any of you who are members of APS can run for office with full opportunity to present your opinions to the entire membership.

On this board, eBay is a religion. That is, it’s a way of life, an all-embracing culture, to which individuals are passionately attached. Debates here are Talmudic, where each passage is parsed for hidden nuance. People like David Benson vie to be the leading rabbi, resentful of being ignored by his deity, demanding allegiance from his community, surly to infidels. But the larger collecting community doesn’t share that view.

To most eBay stamp buyers and sellers, it’s like any other auction firm except you don’t have to wait. The terms of sale are pretty similar to other actions, and each buyer needs to evaluate material cautiously and to bid with care, or else to accept occasional unpleasant surprises. The same general safeguards are in place – misdescribed lots are returnable for a full refund without delay. Expertizing is encouraged.

Yes, there are a few large-scale crooks who must be purged, but some of the scams are more Runyonesque than worrisome, more entertaining than threatening. For tackling the handful of serious offenders, eBay’s arrangement with APS has visibly improved things, and bodes well for the future. Yes, it takes time, but no one expected otherwise. Except for this board, that has been the consensus of APS members I’ve asked to comment. Why do you suppose they see eBay so differently?

Otherwise, every collector knows that stamp owners are often overly optimistic in their descriptions and identifications, and that many are not to be trusted, but that problem can no more be policed by APS or eBay than can the same problem be prevented at any weekend stamp bourse. Better education is the answer, and the reason we provide so many ways to advance everyone’s knowledge. Some dealers will always sneer at what competitors are selling, and this board has become their oasis.

Despite that widespread response, I still encourage each of you, and every collector who agrees with you, to attend the APS convention in August and to raise your concerns both with the APS leadership and with the eBay representatives. I have no dog in this fight, no position to defend. I am trying my best to represent the members' wishes.

February 11, 2004 John Forsyth

I think the expertization case was over the top by the critic. But I do think the ultimate point was, that if I am looking at a London auction catalogue for a BC stamp and I see two identical examples, one with an APEX certificate and one with a RPS certificate, I am going to assume the RPSL cert must be more reliable. This is because I have no idea who looked at the stamp for APEX and I don't have a clue as a neophyte. Not that APEX is bad or wrong, just that it is an assumption the average guy would make. I don't have any APS certificates, but I will admit I have changed my mind about them since Ken came on board. I was in the Jim G school I think.....many auction places only take PF or PSE...... I was just going with the flow. Perhaps it is the turnaround time, or the independence of the APEX certification. I can remember the time that the PF certified a shaved card proof of a Columbian as genuine, so I see the pitfalls of all.

The Ebay thing is a sham to me.......pure propaganda. Let's see: "If" someone complains......."If" then the Ebay people send it to the watchdog commitee......."If" the Watchdog Commitee asks for APS advice........."If" the listing is then still active....then the Watchdog Commitee "might" email the seller with some demands. Hey, way too many holes. The only way it would work is if there was a commitee that had absolute control and had the power of the delete button on the spot.

Look, I too get frustrated. I looked at listings yesterday and found ole DMLENG**ll with a bunch of phony crap. He states he has "hunderds" listed. I don't bother to turn them in anymore. I look at Ebay listings less and less.

John
149267
 

February 11, 2004 Bill Weiss

Chuck
When I arrived at the APS meeting in Norfolk and had a chance to see Ken, I relayed to him that there were some particularly pertinent posts during the time I knew he was in transit to Norfolk and I recommended to him that, if he had the chance, to scroll back to them. Ken is a busy person, sometimes unbelievably so. He probably forgot what I told him. I wonder if Dave F. can retrieve some of those posts from that day?

February 11, 2004 Jim Whitford-Stark

After never reading about it, and I spend a lot of time on the web.
Virtual Stamp Club meets wednesdays at 11pm EST.
Please talk to Ken, I won't be there.
I have to eat.

A very restrained posting as a result of computer crash.

February 11, 2004 Jim (jaywild)

Chris and Ken L. Thanks for the views on the stamp. My 2004 Scott Specialized has EKU for #11 as October 6 1851—I trust that an earlier one has been found since publication. I figured the stamp was almost certainly a 10, however many of the fine lines in the portrait have been abraded away, and there seems to have been some recutting. Just wanted to run it by the folks here.

February 11, 2004 Michael Walter

Still settling in my new house, but still lurking.
 

February 11, 2004 18:27 Dave F. (moderator)

February 11, 2004 prometheus

My freshest receiver
Nice clear strike JamaciaPlains
1900 neat

From now on I'll share the other side of my postcards
( happy now stop the emails all 3 of you)

Does this word mean a Placename, or is it generic like Tower
hilmwarte 2dudes

February 11, 2004 Michael Walter

10 or 11?
Scott #10 was only printed for about 4 months in 1851. After 4 months the color was changed. Giving that the cover is dated 1857, the shade of your stamp, and the plate wear I would say that it is a #11.
 

February 11, 2004 Chuck Harm

Ebay/APS
Ken L.,

Now that you have provided my 15 minutes of fame w/regard to the expertization flap I feel obliged to say something;-)
I submitted a comment to the board just before the APS meeting that I thought Bill Weiss indicated he was going to try to bring to your attention. I wish you could look at it and respond. I am very concerned that APS is being taken advantage of by ebay and that ebay is getting what it wants - better publicity and APS is not getting much - very limited reduction in fraud, damaged reputation and very few members. I was very concerned when I saw APS declaring in the magazine that the partnership was a success but without sharing any data to support this position. I believe the general experience of people on this board is that while there have been limited successes in general the observation has been made that there is seldom any visible action on the auctions that are identified as problematic. I think you even commented that you saw no action. Please read my earlier comments and give me your reaction.

Thanks

February 11, 2004 prometheus

Tried searching using two words
ebay stamps

Found it refreshing that the first thing that came up was
a Rubber stamp kit for 8.95
That seemed apropos

2. Number two with a bullet was S.C.A.D.S. site

After those the other 315,998 place (links) seemed less than important.

If that ain't IRORNY

If it is not then the fact that the 9th spot is held by a hot college girl site that links at ebay stamps ebay stamps ebay fraud
forgot about stamps for a few minutes
Ebay Chat stamps site had 2 in top eight individual posts from the board. neat. are you famous
 

February 11, 2004 18:05 Dave F. (moderator)

Ken: Thank you for your reply. If I understand correctly, I believe that one action on here has unwittingly contributed to your animus about this board and possibly about my motives.

At the time that you first mentioned that the thread about expertization was incomplete, I removed the link because I thought you were correct, and I knew that I would not have the time to go back over months' worth of posts to pull the thread together into completeness. So I deleted it. I am stunned to learn that you think that I deleted it because I agreed with its content and didn't want to add anything that contridicted that. The truth is exactly the opposite.

For what it's worth, it is very time-consuming to extract individual threads from the posts on here, to continue to make them readable, and to prune the "runners" that take a topic off-topic. When I first started this, I was naive in thinking that it would be easy.

Based on your comments, I think the only mea culpa I can offer is to remove all separate threads, and I may do so.

I will also add personally that being involved with this board has been a time-consuming (10 - 30 hours / week), usually thankless, and sometimes litigiously risky venture. I will admit that I have been rattled by several litigation threats that I've had to deal with, and thus I have been reluctant to put even more time into the board to either promote it, add more features, or convert it to a more robust platform. The truth is, had I known what I was getting into, I would never had started it in the first place, and I suppose that's exactly the objective that some sellers who were troubled by the discussion on here sought.

So I'm sorry you misinterpreted my effort to remedy what I thought was your legitimate concern about that thread, and that it has apparently informed much of the rest of our interactions.

Also, to overshare on my personal life, my work as a consultant is either feast or famine. I started this board when my work was very slow. Unfortunately, I've been working and travelling furiously since December, with several more months of this to go, and I simply cannot give this board any more time at this point, although it certainly deserves more. I feel a bit as if I bought a weekend cabin in the mountains and am subsequently constantly reminded about all the work that needs to be done on it.

Finally, I'm sorry that your "first encounter with this board revealed an unholy alliance of APS-haters". Several of us, all APS members, said this was not representative of many others' views, but that never seemed to persuade you, and you instead continued to take potshots at the board as a whole.

Beyond that, I'm afraid I don't know how to address any of your other concerns, much as I would like to. They seem to be about the nature of a message/discussion board, which is not the same as a publication, and I'm at a loss to know how to fix that. I'm open to suggestions.

February 11, 2004 Ken Lawrence

Jim (jaywild)

Based on the date, it's almost certainly Scott 10. The earliest use of Scott 11 is October 4, 1851. If you have a second day usage, it's worth a lot of money.

February 11, 2004 Bill Weiss

Various
JIM G; You are always welcome in MY stamp society!

DUNCAN; Thank you for your note about the Amelia Earhart offering;

I am not saying anything more on the APS/eBay topic - at least for the next hour - wh8ile I watch the best show on TV (The West Wing, of course!).

February 11, 2004 Ken Lawrence

Jim Griffith

As I have written before, and invite you to reread if it matters, all the recognized expertizing services have advantages, and all do a good job. Some unenlightened dealers cling to past beliefs. Others like Bill Weiss follow the pace of change and improvement, and change their terms accordingly. In my opinion, ESPECIALLY for the stamps you prefer, APEX has the edge IF you can tolerate the longer turnaround time that we require. I have several clients who prefer APEX despite terms of sale that require the others, and those dealers have always agreed to accept APEX opinions when the arrangement was made before the sale. I myself have had my agents, Jeff Purser and Missi Wheeler, make such arrangements for me.

February 11, 2004 03:00 CET Paul B <philaweb at (remove) yahoo dot dk>

eBay users affiliate
Please allow me to introduce a link to the eBay User's Stamp Club.

February 11, 2004 Brian McInturff

APS
I've set back and over time I too have come to thin k that several people who are located outside the US and also several who collect other than US have a bad taste for the APS. Well, there are a lot of us that like the APS. I think everyone should stop and think before typing. Both sides come across strong and the new collector will be turned off by this. I see hints of what we call "pot shots" taken on a daily basis at the APS and it's not warranted. Ebay will never be a perfect place, once you understand that then life wil be much easier on you. The APS offered to help, they do have the credentials, does this mob? Not hardly.The APS can only act when they are asked, remember that. Can't we all just get along!!

February 11, 2004 Chris

#10 or #11?
After staring at it for a while, I am leaning
towards 11, due to plate wear. The neck area looks
awfully white to me, and the machine tooling in the borders
looks worn.

Chris - this opinion is worth what you paid for it

February 11, 2004 Duncan Doenitz

Some relationships just don't work out.

It really looked like eBay finally had it right when they called in the APS, but its a train wreck.

EBay gets to hide behind the APS, pretending that something is being done, while APS correctly points out that they only respond when eBay refers items to them. Why do watchdogs come here and constantly bitch about the problems? Because after the time they invest in spotting and reporting bad auctions, they deservedly are entitled to see some positive results. But meanwhile, sellers like, well, lets say "uncommonstamps", rolls along undaunted, completely immune from eBay's rules, selling forgeries described as Cinderellas or "philatelic items" in private sales and never, after months of reported bad sales, being required to mark the items as forgeries.

The recent statement that eBay requires 24 hours to act is an absolute insult and an outright lie. In the fall of 2002, an MSNBC investigation of fraud on eBay revealed evidence that Power Sellers were sacred cows at eBay, and today that still has not changed. Poor Ken L is caught in the crossfire of people knowledgeable about the dealings of eBay who clearly know that the present alliance has become a bad joke. No wonder everyone is pissed. When the same seller can be reported for rule violations for two months and nothing is done, the system simply ain't working, no matter what APS thinks. Case closed.

Bottom line is, its time for the APS to wake up to the fact that they are being used, grow a set of balls and shake things up. they have contacts with eBay that should be put to constructive use, contacts denied to us lowly peons on the chat board. There is no good reason to function as an enabler, allowing continuing abuse by eBay (the REAL source of the problem).

I really wanted to post some more stuff about the 1928 Special Printings on booklet paper, and only meant to mention the APS/eBay thing in passing. I got carried away. Now the Special Printings topic seems inappropriate, except that I would like to mention an auction offering by Bill Weiss. It is valuable due to an Amelia Earhart autograph on the cover, but I wonder too if the stamp on the cover might be one from that Special Printing since it dates back to 1929.

Oh well. I still found time to go on an eBay buying binge before the stuff hit the fan here.

Dunc

------->{{{*>

February 11, 2004 Ken Lawrence

Jim Griffith

Yes, you misrepresented my comments. If you have ever read any of my articles in the philatelic press for the past thirty years, you ought to recognize that they are directed to readers who collect as you do. So do most of my comments about philatelic issues on Internet chat boards (VSC, Frajola, and Frick).

The only way you could possibly fit your reply to what I wrote is if the eBay users affiliate has only three or four members nationally, all of whom never travel anywhere. If that is the case, it is unlike any other APS affiliate.

Nearly every APS affiliated specialty society convenes somewhere each year. The American Air Mail Society convenes twice every year. Many of them convene at the annual APS convention, and the ones who don't usually sponsor seminars to propagate their interests.

So many of them meet at the two annual APS shows that I can't attend the meetings of all the ones I belong to because their meetings are in conflict.

February 11, 2004 Jim Griffith <griffith@dweeb.org> http://album.dweeb.org
 

Jim

February 11, 2004 Jim Griffith <griffith@dweeb.org> http://album.dweeb.org
 

Jim

February 11, 2004 Paolo B.

Pro :-)
How about starting to fill with a "c" in "didatic" and an additonal "m" in "dilema"?
Then I would add "caparison" and "despair" ;-)

February 11, 2004 Ken Lawrence <apsken@aol.com>

Dave F

To my knowledge we have not met in person. Perhaps you'll attend out Sacramento convention in August so we can rectify that. I certainly have no animosity toward you, and further, I think much of what you do is constructive and helpful. Unfortunately you treat any criticism as some sort of vendetta. Truth is, I had resolved to avoid further discussions of eBay here, where my contributions benefit no one, but to continue participating in the useful discussions that you host, grateful to you for hosting them. I replied to Leonard Hartmann on Richard Frajola's board in order to forestall another quagmire, but I plainly failed when the discussion got moved back here. Still, you are entitled to an explanation, which I hope you'll treat as a mark of respect.

When I first logged onto this board last fall at Bill Weiss’s urging, it seemed a pretty dismal place. The discussion here was dominated by four themes: casting aspersions on eBay, bemoaning the proliferation of so-called illegals, taunting and attacking the American Philatelic Society, and disparaging the American Philatelic Expertizing Service.

Other subjects were discussed intelligently, but those four were the ones that aroused passions and incited arguments.

Worse, the home page included a prominent link to an edited and archived exchange that advised readers not to trust APEX certificates, without any commentary that refuted flagrantly false, defamatory, and damaging statements about APEX. At that time, performing a Google search for information on stamp expertizing selected that pile of unrefuted attacks and insults as a prominent choice.

Later, after I had posted a series of factual commentaries on APEX and other U.S.-based stamp expertizing services, and urged you to add them to that archived discussion, you refused to do so, and shut down the link instead. These experiences inform my attitude, both toward the usefulness of this board and toward its various vocal participants.

For better or for worse in this, I am – and stated clearly that I am – a partisan of APS, APEX, and the American Philatelic Research Library. I am not very handy with a computer, and not a frequent user of eBay, so I tried at first to recruit more authoritative members of the APS leadership than I to take up this challenge. They advised me it would prove to be a fruitless waste of time, and refused. In hindsight I concede they were right.

To get a good comparison, the Virtual Stamp Club (the first Internet affiliate of APS) has frequent discussions of eBay, and includes many frequent eBay buyers and sellers. It includes questions and comments under such threads as “bad eBay lot of the day.” But it does not whine about or attack APS and the APS staff. Its members meet at APS conventions and share our hobby experiences. (APS spends a lot of money to accommodate affiliates' meetings, seminars, and booths, and hosts a luncheon for their representatives each year that fills a banquet hall.) I'd guess that VSC is bigger than eBay Stamp Users Group, is equally involved with eBay, and is considerably more constructive in advising APS on fashioning solutions to problems.

In contrast, my first encounter with this board revealed an unholy alliance of APS-haters, which included some who were faulting the Society for the perceived sins of eBay and others who disparaged any APS attempt to reform eBay, including one who threatened to sue APS in opposition to these reforms. Yet I decided to appear here anyway, for the benefit of others who might hold the truth in higher esteem. But to your dismay I did not conceal my contempt for the mountebanks and their amen corner.

For the past decade I have labored to make APEX into the world’s finest and most reliable stamp expertizing service. For four years I chaired the APS headquarters expansion committee, so that our hobby can provide additional resources to every collector. These are volunteer contributions that have taken hundreds of hours of my personal time, for which I receive no compensation whatever. Naturally I take misrepresentations of these efforts as a personal affront. Who wouldn’t?

The exchange on this board last August is a flagrant example of the problem that concerns me, which I think hurts us all: Chuck Harm bought at auction on eBay a used 8 pies stamp of India on bluish paper issued in 1860, Scott 19C, which he submitted to APEX. His stamp was examined by Reuben Ramkissoon, George Holschauer, and Hugh McMackin. Ben declined an opinion, the others both said it was properly identified and without faults, so APEX certified it as genuine in all respects.

When Chuck reported this on the Frick board, a pompous Australian stamp dealer shot back, “Chuck, the certificate is absolutely useless. Anyone can change the color of the paper to a bluish tinge and it is often done. It is the consistency of the bluing that only an expert can tell that has seen plenty of the genuine paper and has comparisons. I would doubt very much if anyone in the US has any to compare them with. Like I said they most probably saw some bluish tinge in the paper, perused a catalog and presto, genuine although it is highly unlikely.”

When Chuck questioned the critic more closely, he (the critic) stood his ground. “Yes, IMO the APS just does a superficial job and just looks at the stamp and a catalogue and the person making the decision does not have the background to know the intracacies of the material submitted.”

As it happens, experts in many other countries, including members of the related FIP commission, have spoken highly of these particular APEX experts, and regard them among the best in the world for certifying British Empire stamps. But our critic remained adamant that their opinions are worthless, and you (Dave F) saw nothing wrong with including his unanswered attack on APEX in a prominently featured archive on expertizing.

No responsible editor would seriously consider publishing such tripe, but it seems to be standard fare not just at the fringe of our hobby, but encroaching on the mainstream. I’m dismayed that people who repeat this rubbish have no concern for the real damage they are doing to everyone, even to their own business and collecting interests.

I wasn’t born yesterday. I understand that some stamp dealers make a point of trying to discredit independent experts (especially after their stamps have been returned by unhappy buyers), so that customers won’t trust us. But to tolerate and encourage those ploys here is not a service to the hobby, even though other discussions here are valuable and informative.

Beyond my attitude, which I recognize as an area of disagreement among us, is the matter of verifiable fact. The three experts who examined Chuck Harm’s stamp did not simply look it up in the catalog and agree that it matched the description. Ben Ramkissoon declined an opinion because he lacked a reference. The other two expressed confident opinions based on verifiable experience with and knowledge of the variety.

Replying in kind to smears of that sort is not condescension, and deigning to challenge false and harmful statements is certainly not slumming.
 

February 11, 2004 John Forsyth

What Brian R said

February 11, 2004 prometheus

Jaywild
I too am eagerly awaiting results
either way nice Stamp is the cover that kinda condition Too?
Looks great

February 11, 2004 Jim (jaywild)

US #10?
Correction—the cover is dated October 1851.

February 11, 2004 Paolo B.

"Mecca "of philately (joke)

Sorry for not having been there in pilgrimage, yet. Neither I plan to it in the next years or I think this will detract. A----- hhuhakbaar!

 

February 11, 2004 Jim Lawler

Jim L.

February 11, 2004 8:16 on the west coast of the east coast prometheus

Thanks Jim G
For your well thought out response

I had a long message going that was , abrasive, and filled with sarcasm that I almost posted to say the same thing.

so to save some extra work for OUR FINE MODERATOR

Back on line Like I need to state the readable.

I have edited my message leaving only the words that start with the letters C and D


Concept
concievable
concern
conciliate
compromise
concerted

condescension

concomitant

diletante
dilema
diffuse
difficult
Diadatic
Diatribe

Fill in the rest of the words in your mind, I'm sure most of you can get the gist of my Sentimants.
 

February 11, 2004 Jim Whitford-Stark

Vic
Thanks, though I have no problems with Jim's comments. Though I am slightly closer to the Gulf of Mexico (560 miles) than Gulf of California (about 600 miles).
In fact, I applaud Jim's comments.
Unlike Pro, I am unlikely to go fishing on Sunday and have about an equal opportunity to attend APS meeting.
Though am seriously considering IAVCEI meeting in Chile in November.
Sorry for slow reply, was loading legitimate eBay auctions that won't get pulled for being forgeries or for being the unknowing entries from a long-time APS member and eBay power-seller who knows nothing about adulterated covers.

February 11, 2004 Jim (jaywild)

Jim
 

February 11, 2004 Jim Griffith <griffith@dweeb.org> http://album.dweeb.org
 

Jim

February 11, 2004 Victor Horadam

disasters
Jim G.: Jim W-S is a near "west coast guy" only if California drops into the Pacific Ocean. Now, we don't want to see that, do we?

February 11, 2004 Victor Horadam <horadam1@airmail.net>

"pointing hands"
Someone had earlier said that there were multiple new lots of "pointing hands" covers by one seller placed on ebay and suggested a search. I tried and could not find them, and I do collect them. Anyone help with showing me where they are? Thanks.

February 11, 2004 Jim Griffith <griffith@dweeb.org> http://album.dweeb.org
 

Jim

February 11, 2004 Paolo B.

new at sharing info about stamps
Hello, Mr. Rick Avery!
Welcome to this online stamp chat! There are different specialists posting here. Since you are from Australia and you didn't specify the major issueing entity of the postage stamps and stamps you collected, unless you collected stamps from the whole world, I suppose that, among else, especially Mr. David B, Mr. Marius W. and Mr. Dave D.R., posters on this board, might be of help for you to organize your collection.
Kind regards, P.B.

February 11, 2004 16:31 Dave F. (moderator)

Rick A: Thanks for your post. Unfortunately, it's come right in the midst of another outbreak of a long-term discussion.

If, for some reason, your question does not seem to get answered within the next few hours, please post it again. Also, please feel free to get a little more specific with your questions, and I bet there will be people who will try very hard to answer your questions helpfully.

February 11, 2004 Paolo B.

Good day / night all!

David B.
I think that what you wrote reflects a vast part of reality. But I think there are still little thinghies out there for specialized collectors which like to improvise themselves as mere bargain hunters.

Paul B. ;-) Where do I have to send my curriculum, I am also still a student, to work in a Danish McDonalds'? :-)
Anyway, I understand and agree with the point you're making.


 

February 11, 2004 16:21 Dave F. (moderator)

various
Ken: I genuinely don't know what to do that would satisfy you? What do you wish that I do? To delete the comments that express frustration with eBay and with the eBay/APS relationship? How eBay-esque to delete the critical comments and proclaim that all is right.

For every critical post, should I make up and attribute to others posts that are favorable to the APS? I do leave on here the posts that are favorable, so I hardly understand how I am to blame.

I also assure you that I do not regard any of this as "innocent fun". (Have I ever said or even implied such a thing?!)

Finally, I personally have said that I believe the problem lies with eBay, and one of my concerns is that the APS is being used by eBay to give the superficial appearance that the problem is being addressed. It has been written on here by several posters that because eBay often does not take action on auctions reported that people have stopped reporting them. When that happens, then, from eBay's perspective, it looks like the problem is going away.

Finally, I will say this about David Benson. Whatever anyone thinks of his style, he has generously given of his time and expertise on this board and the eBay board, and, from what I can tell, has been enormously accurate in his identifications. This has helped online philately significantly.

My concern when eBay started heavily deleting posts and suspending regular posters was that these resources would get cast to the wind, as many of the questions asked are not really advanced enough for Richard's board.

I did not start this board as either an anti-APS board or even an anti-eBay board. I have tried to moderate this board with integrity, and greatly resent the implications that have impugned either my motives or those of most of the posters. (Yes, there are some who take potshots. I'm sorry they do.)

Whenever I wonder whether the need for this board has passed and it's time to wrap it up, something comes up to remind me that there would not otherwise be a place online to have some of these discussions. Although it appears that eBay is letting any and all comments stand for the moment, we have seen the pendulum swing the other way several times before, and, I'm sure that as soon that someone at eBay starts noticing a discussion that does not promote the party line, the deletions would come fast and furious.

But I do resent the fact that, Ken, in your mind, my reputation is besmirched by the mere presence of this board. I suppose I should never attempt to exhibit competitively in the US.

February 11, 2004 Brian R

Time to move on. All this is proving, are my deep suspicions, that there are a few jerks in our mix.

February 11, 2004 Richard Frajola

Ken L I am virtually deaf to any Dan Neary assessment of anything beyond baseball cards. Is APS happy with the results to date? Are YOU happy with results to date?

PS - Did you ever see the email I wrote to one of the Neighborhood Watch members that I posted before the Norfolk show on both boards?

February 11, 2004 David Benson

Ken, that is material that was listed and the seller had agreed to the APS stipulations. They are not on any other Ebay site and some have stated that the vetting is for material that is available to the US even though it was listed on other Ebay sites,

David Benson

February 11, 2004 Roger Heath

Power Sellers
Ken L -
It might surprise you to learn that Ebay's accolade of "Power Seller" has been considered a kiss of death. There have probably been more flagrant attempts to sell fraudulent philatelic items on Ebay by "Power Sellers" than believable. Most ignore or argue back at recognized expert advise, Ebay supported the "Power Sellers' (that's a major source of income), the anomoly is the small seller invariably thanks emailers for the information. We used to post "good guy" comments, we used to post "scan of the day", we used to post "fakes" galore. In fact APS isn't really necessary if Ebay just followed 95% of its own rules. The open 5% allows corrupt sellers to become "Power Sellers". How many times in life do people who've been cheated report to the poice, when the response is, "soory, that's small stuff, before we investigate a loss must be over $5,000". Ebay fraud reports via its fraud reporting "service" underestimates the problem because many have given up having seen nothing appreciable happen in 5 years!
Roger Heath, President Ebay User Stamp Club, member American Helvetia Philatelic Society, member Great Britain Collectors Club, and member APS. If I don't have representation at an APS convention via anyone of these other groups, the system isn't working.

February 11, 2004 David Benson

Ken, before I have to go out, could you please answer a simple question. Does Ebay.Com vet material that is listed on other sites or only material that is listed on Ebay.Com.

David Benson

February 11, 2004 Ken Lawrence <apsken@aol.com>

Roger Heath and David Benson

If you won't trifle to advance your cause when APS presents you with the forum and the opportunity, I guess you're out of luck. That's the way our Society has functioned for 118 years, to our members' evident satisfaction.

According to Dan Neary in reply to my questions (these are my paraphrases, for which he is not responsible), it usually takes eBay a minimum of 24 hours to handle a complaint that has merit, but (and this is my experience) honest sellers usually respond to knowledgeable points directly. Complaining to eBay as a substitute for that remedy is an abuse of the system.

Neary said that the system seems to be working well for U.S. material, and that eBay hopes to find a similar solution for fraudulently misdescribed foreign material, but as yet does not have the ability to solve this problem.

I have no interest whatever in visiting an eBay chatboard, just as I have no interest in socializing with people at a traditional stamp auction.

February 11, 2004 David Benson

Bill, your right, I will complain again.

This is the 1st. time anyone has stated that foreign material vetting is still in it's infancy. It should be way past that by now and have as much vetting as US material.

If you look at this

http://pages.ebay.com/buy/index.html?ssPageName=h:h:cat:US

you will see that US stamps amount to about 1/3rd. of material listed.

I still have not noticed 1 lot of foreign that has been vetted and the proliferation of replicas US & foreign is still continuing unabated and is spreading with material being resold some without mentioning that they are modern reproductions. I also checked and very little forgeries listed are backstamped.
What has been more annoying is the fact that Ebay.US does not even bother replying to queries whilst overseas Ebay do. I know that this is not an APS problem but a representative of Ebay.US has been asked why doesn't even reply is not a good sign of Ebay trying to clean up their act,

sorry, I have to go out now for a few hours, will catch up when I return,

David Benson

February 11, 2004 15:53 Bjorn Munch

Payments
I just made an electronic bank-to-bank payment to a Dane for some items bought on a Norwegian auction site. No fees! This is with an internet only bank which have no branch offices whatsoever. The fact that the seller also had an account with the Danish branch of the same (Swedish) bank may be a factor, otherwise he may have had to pay a fee.

I'm right now in the process of getting an account with Hypovereinsbank in Germany so that I can easily accept payments when I start selling lots of German material.
 

February 11, 2004 2350 rick avery <kittynrikatyahoodotcom>

new at sharing info about stamps
i have been collecting stamps and related paraphenalia for decades, now that i have retired i would like to organise the collection. thereby i need to gain lots of info/advice/help fast. a club does not exist within miles of my location in australia, hence this posting. thanks for any input.

February 11, 2004 Ken Lawrence

From Frajola's Board
My comment:

On the broad subject of the APS-eBay relationship, we have an unusual situation. On Dave Frick's chat board, a handful of writers spend considerable time venting on this subject. Some proclaim themselves to be representatives of the eBay User's Group (I think that's its name), an APS affiliate. Because I'm the only APS leader who has appeared there, they have derided me energetically. Yet for reasons unknown, no one representing their point of view has seen fit to attend the two biggest APS gatherings of the past year, when eBay's Dan Neary has held forums to answer questions and criticisms from APS members, including myself, most recently ten days ago at Norfolk. Meanwhile, the members in attendance there and at Columbus last August have expressed enthusiasm and support for the relationship. One difference between Frick's group and this forum is that many of the participants here do attend APS conventions, and I saw many of you at both gatherings, so I doubt this website will turn into a similar dartboard.

Dave Frick's comment

Ken: Most of us are not in the "business", and do not have either the time or money to get on a plane to go to attend a stamp show. I'm glad that more people here, in your estimation, have that opportunity and privilege.

Perhaps some of them had the opportunity to share with you in person some of the frustrations of dealing with eBay's spotty efforts to reduce fraud, and so perhaps you took those remarks more seriously. I suppose it's a matter of money buying access.

I also resent the insinuation you often put in your messages that you are slumming when you visit the StampChat board. I'm sorry that everyone is not as advanced as you and some of the participants on here. But I would posit that most people who are now advanced were once beginners and intermediate collectors at one time.

I'm sorry that the knowledge that you sometimes share on the other board, and which is appreciatively acknowledged, comes at such a high price. Thankfully, most other (but certainly not all) advanced collectors are not so contemptuous of others not as advanced as themselves.

My reply to Dave Frick:

Your accusation is groundless. APS conventions are attended by our members from all over the world, not just by people in the business. I'm not wealthy at all. I was a dirt-poor civil rights worker in Mississippi for more than 20 years before I moved to Pennsylvania in 1993, but I attended AMERIPEX and every APS convention beginning in 1986, precisely because APS does host meetings of several dozen affiliates each time, where I learned most of what I know today. Affiliates that have collective concerns about APS policies make it a point to send representatives. To my knowledge, the only exception is the eBay users group, which sneers from afar. Are you telling me these eBay power sellers have no interest in meeting their colleagues and potential customers?

Nor have I demeaned your board as slumming. I hold in contempt the participants with an abundance of time and a paucity of imagination who slag APS out of ignorance and malice, and I'm annoyed that you regard this as innocent fun while disallowing comparable attacks on individuals.

The board where the little people of the hobby converse (about new issues, first day covers, plate number coils, and the like) is the Virtual Stamp Club, of which I'm a member. It is the most fun of all the Internet stamp sites. VSC is an APS affiliate, and has a booth and meets at every APS convention.

On your board, as on VSC, I have answered every question in an area of my expertise with respect, and have patiently followed up every honest discussion and debate. But contrary to your opinion, the attacks you allow cause serious harm, which I do not abide patiently.
 

February 11, 2004 Roger Heath

APS
Ken L -
There is no way I am going to fly from Hawaii to Norfolk to hear an Ebay representative defend Ebay policy. Ebay has a Stamp Chat Board where any policy from Ebay category managers or management personnel could announce edicts, voice official opinions, etc.. I cna't remember a single instance during the past two years where an Ebay employee has visited the Board to discuss anyhting other than warning posters about unacceptable subject matter, i.e. no writing about fraud, no linking to fakes, no mentioning seller of fraudulent items by name. It is currently 3:40pm PST and I looked at Richard's Board to view the discussion and the cover lots were still listed. Not only hasn't the seller withdrawn the lots, but we are always in the dark as to how long Ebay requires to remove faked items. Are we now all required to bookmark the auctions and check back every couple of days to see if anything is made right? No we move on!

I think it is preposterous to expect everyone who complains about the APS/Ebay relationship to be painted with the same brush. I have yet to figure out why you have never posted (that I've seen) on the Ebay Chat Board. It would seem a natural for someone from APS to discuss unofficial concepts on the Board designed for Ebay sellers and buyers. Of course you wil have to read the "found in grandpa's attic" finds, and "what's this?" without links. I'm starting to think we all must wait for 2 months to discover what what happened in Norfollk. I really expected to see someone post comments about the Ebay-APS meetings. I'll make a guess - Ebay doesn't have the personnel to keep fowarding complaints to APS for verification, and if they did, Ebay can't confirm from a scan.

Roger, watching and waiting to hear what went on in Norfolk.

February 11, 2004 Bill Weiss