StampChat Archives

Archive:  March 1 - 15, 2004

• Last updated:  20 March 2004

March 15, 2004 David Benson

Bruce, sorry to hear that, we had dinner with him in Bangkok in 2000 and he appeared in good health. He didn't get on with many of the other specialists especially some who were selling their own home made fakes of the Lion issues. He was issuing certificates and some one else was also issuing certificates of their own manufactured material. A good area to keep away from.

David B.

March 15, 2004 8:30 Bruce Campbell

You're quite right about the Society infighting, it's fairly serious at times (we have a web group now, and you know how those can cause more explosive words than in-person meetings, phone calls, or snailmail), but at the same time it's really quite civil - I guess partly because a lot of very-civil Brits are involved, maybe is one reason - and the other factor is that we are all unified in one aspect: all the major cats (Scott, Gibbons, Michel, Yvert) are completely riddled with inaccuracies about Iran philately. A good reason not to take any of these catalogs too seriously on their print-method listings or any other claims, many statements seem to have begun just on rumor and passed along for decades, with no evidence at all as basis. Anyway, a strange glue to hold a society together, but it seems to work okay for the most part. We spent 3 months recently studying the origin of the 1912 "Officiel" overprints and ended up nowhere but with more mysteries than we started with (hint: it's not likely it was Russian troop looting that caused the overprints, as the cats say). Thanks for your input anyway, I'll let you know if there's an outcome on the 1876 issue if I see you around, and there is ever a consensus. The biggest printing expert has promised to do an in-depth publication on his Litho opinion, which he says should end the debate once and for all (I wish him luck).

March 15, 2004 Jim whitford-Stark

Pro
Yep, snowbirds are in abundance here as well.
They seem to be incapable of putting vehicles in car parks and leave them parked by the side of the road instead.
Sometimes I feel I should invest in a grenade launcher. :-Þ

Still haven't seen our harbinger of Spring, the buzzard.
Not pretty Iris's or daffodils.
However, temperatures for the next week are predicted in the 70's and 80's so shouldn't be long.

March 15, 2004 prometheus

Jim W-S
The real problem is that this time of year all the Yanquis
are on my roads
Normally after easter the white-haired snowbirds
Get the flock out of Fla.

Then it's better till the frost on the pumpkins and the mad migration happens all over again.

March 15, 2004 Jim Whitford-Stark

Pro
A three and a half hour drive is like an afternoon stroll.
It takes me that to get to somewhere where I want to go from.
And it would, if I drove a car.
On a bike, I don't know how long it would take me for 157 miles.
I ain't Lance Armstrong.
As Bill D will undoubtedly attest.
 

March 15, 2004 prometheus

roger -
they are on the other coast so maybe next month
I'll grab them
3.5 hours is a long drive.
When I've seen all the cards there.
I'll dig thru my Norways and see what I've got.
I bought a lot of box Bridge types before I truly understood the
Razor idea.

March 15, 2004 Roger Heath

Norway razor
Pro and Bjorn -
I have no idea of teh rarity of the Kristiania cancel. It was the clue to Swiss collectors in 1991 that the cancel originated in Switzerland. Apparently at an exhibition in Holland a Norwegian collector showed an example of the razor. A Swiss collector saw it corresponded witht eh collector discovered that deCoppet had patents in Norway and that led the Swiss to the Swiss patent offices. Usign key words they discovered all the deCoppet patents then went to tthe SwissPTT archives and discovered a file of correspondence between deCoppet and Swiss PTT. This has all happened since 1991.

The records show that Norway ordered 2 cancelers that had the boxed date bridge, similar to the Ste. Croix and the 1901 exhibition cancels deCoppet was making at the time. Norway later obtained one or more razor cancelers. Dates of the Norway razor canceler in my references are the following:
27.XI.06
23.I.09
10.II.12

the date of both cards I've received from Prometheus is 18.VII.07, which fits within the published use dates. Ther must be more out there, but it doesn't surprise me that they are unusual, so are Swiss razor cancels, and in my exhibit I have a couple of pieces where less than 10 known examples exist.

The 1901 Kristiania boxed cancel must be rarer because it was sent to Norway after the 1900 UPU Convention, and following the design then available at least two improvments were made resulting in reliable devices.
If anyone sees one of the 1901 Kristiania cancels I would be interested in making an offer on those.

Pro - Get the other Norway razors. Right now I can only imagine they would be of interest to Norway cancel collectors or deCoppet collectors. Once I've show my exhibit in May I might be able to tell you more about their scarcity, or lack thereof.

Roger

Roger

 

March 15, 2004 prometheus

here is some Pre stamp postal records
sorry two pieces to view the Free host only allows certain size pics but if you look at the first and then the second
you will see how they match up

Candles-21/2ctsalb

and the big-money-earned-in-1820

March 15, 2004 7:46 EST prometheus

More new things from the weekend
here are a couple of slogans that were new to me
Aero

and Aero

and then nothing special But I did not have this Mine-station

March 15, 2004 4:36 p.m. Joy Tilton <joylark1@earthlink.net>

Just stopping by to check the board tonight. Maybe questions later. Blessings - Peace - Joy

March 15, 2004 00:54 CET Paul B

nomad55 Perhaps you should clear the caches on your computer. If the computer does not refresh by every visit you will see an "old screen", an old cache. Or you should simply refresh the screen when you visit. Much depends on the computer settings.

March 15, 2004 nomad55

Paul
Unfortunately will have to wait until later. I have an urgent task to accomplish now.

March 15, 2004 nomad55

Paul B
I get to the chat board.
It tells me I'm logged in, even though I actively logged out.

March 15, 2004 00:49 CET Paul B

nomad55 Please log in again! I can see when you are logged in and then I'll guide you.

March 15, 2004 00:43 CET Paul B

nomad55 Where do you go when you click this link?

March 15, 2004 00:40 CET Paul B

Perhaps Dave F has some more informations on this subject?

March 15, 2004 nomad55

Paul B
I clicked on the link you posted up at 22:15 , did a log in with pass word, and it took me once more to a profile page.

What am I doing wrong?

March 15, 2004 Richard Frajola

Board
Paul Not an attorney but it is my understanding that host cannot be sued with hope of winning. In the case of this board, as well as mine, the host is in Hawaii.

March 15, 2004 David Benson

Bruce, can't help you on that one, presumably Typo but your right, the Vienna Printing Works also produced some litho's at the time. I know that the Iran Philatelic Society has had some infighting and argue about every minor point who is right on any trivial subject. If N. Farahbaksh has stated something as definite then that most probably is correct as he has put intense study into all the early material over many decades. If you are in doubt you could most probably ask him directly, his English is perfect (he used to live here before he was asked to leave) and then moved to America before returning to Iran/Germany/Holland.

David B.

March 15, 2004 23:12 CET Paul B

Did it again - correct header for previous post is prototype board, not threaded board. That's what happens when more projects run simultaneously.

March 15, 2004 23:06 CET Paul B

New threaded board
Richard F What is important is not where the responsible people are situated, but where the server is situated. It is ultimately the webserver host that can be threatened to terminate any content on their servers by court order.

March 15, 2004 1:30 Bruce Campbell

Bruce

March 15, 2004 Richard Frajola

Alternate Boards
Although I am prejudiced, I'll make a comment. I think this board is fine the way it is - just need to relieve David of the responsibility for keeping it. All we need is a volunteer with $30 who is off-shore and can censor with a fast delete key to keep the problem children off the board.

All the other boards I have tried are too difficult for me to conveniently view posts. Accessibility is crucial to any new design -

March 15, 2004 22:15 CET Paul B <philaweb at (remove) yahoo dot dk>

New prototype board
nomad55 You have bookmarked a page only visible when logged in. Please follow this link and bookmark the page you then enter. The reason why I am using a redirection URL is because I can later redirect to the final destination chosen for my new prototype board - IF my new prototype board is chosen to be the new and improved version of StampChat.
Björn M Yes, Netscape 4.8* and previous versions are not compatible since the CSS (Cascading Style Sheet) format is not supported.
Dave FAmen to your latest post. :-)

March 15, 2004 prometheus

Matt L
Saw an interesting item this weekend
Stampess Cover Ohio of course
From Govenor Hazzard to Caleb Lay(sp) Sec of State
commisioning some Justices of Peace, over objections.
Mailed nov 25 1830 from -- milton - 6 rate.(in manuscript )
If it had not been 140 bucks I would have snagged for you.

March 15, 2004 Jim Whitford-Stark

Sacre blue, is nothing sacred ?

March 15, 2004 232 est prometheus

Bjorn
I hope not too Rare
I sent 2/3 of mine to Roger and I had to pay an outlandish
dollar each for them.
But I know where more are (6 more) same date maybe next time I drive that direction I'll pick up those also.

Paquebots
Here are my two newest ship board markings
Suid-Afrika

and Cardiff
 

March 15, 2004 David Benson

Bruce, the " accepted " would only be an officials notation that the design was accepted, it does not mean that printing would be using same method. It is unusual that the printing method and layout of the sheets of the stamps hasn't been proven as most early stamps have been studied intensely. What was the item.

David B.

March 15, 2004 Jim Whitford-Stark

Bjorn
I knew it wasn't you because you mentioned before that you used 4.77.
Besides which, my web site has been hit by 29 different web users using the .no extension.

March 15, 2004 10:32 Bjorn Munch

Catch-up
I've been very busy lately... I tried the new board and my Netscape went bananas. Well, I can use it with Opera. But one thing first: there's no place my email address will be publicly accessible if I register, right? I don't want spam.

Pro and Roger, I see you have discussied Norway cancels. I think that Kristiana razor has got to be pretty rare, I can't remember I've seen it before. But I might just have forgotten.

Io Jim, well I've been accessing your site from Norway using SUnOS 5.6, but my Netscape is 4.77 so it can't be me. :-)
 

March 15, 2004 nomad55

Paul B
When I log in to the "new site", it takes me to a profile page. It's not evident how to immediately access the chat page - took me three tries to find it.
Ok, I tried to edit profile. Clicked on submit, and got message 'invalid input".

Paul.....please improve the navigation.

March 15, 2004 nomad55

PRO
Very nice Portland flag cancel!
That's a difficult one to locate, think I've got 3, and that took 20 years to find 'em.
There are two versions of this flag, and yours (and mine) are the more common variety.

March 15, 2004 8:30 Dave F. (moderator)

re: Alternative boards: I am very appreciative of the efforts that everyone has made, including those who have developed the several various prototypes and to everyone else who has gone to the trouble to visit those sites.

I do hope I will be allowed to make a recommendation at some point in the near future among them.

From the lessons learned with this board, I am aware of issues that may not be obvious to most participants but that may be critical factors in making a decision that allows a board to achieve long-term success.

So, let's please not consider that a final decision one way or another has been made yet.

March 15, 2004 6:30 AM Bruce Campbell

From this large die-proof I found of the accepted vignette created via Litho-stone, does my die-proof show with reasonable certainty that Lithography was used for the entire final design, considering the time period? I think it does (a proof being quite far along the new-issue creation process), but I've never hit a situation like this before. Ideas, opinions?

March 15, 2004 8 Am on the west coast of the east coast. prometheus

Greg I
Thanks Much for id on the perfin
Even tho on a private use postcard, I am guess that the
use was by a person in the office of the Insurance company.
After all he talks about being late with a note because

You guessed it he was "Traveling"

March 15, 2004 03:54 Jim Watson

My second item is an early registered airmail cover from El Salvador to England in 1930. No, it didn't go via air all the way. It has wonderful franking and postal markings.

March 15, 2004 12:50 CET Paul B

Brian M Say no more... Test Site is changed to StampChat. :-) Thanks for your comment, wasn't aware of that, but now you've mentioned it - I have received virus e-mails with test in the header.

March 15, 2004 Brian McInturff

Paul, some email servers will kickout emails with the word "test" in the subject line. Thought I'd pass this in to you.

March 15, 2004 11:53 CET Paul B <philaweb at (remove) yahoo dot dk>

Question: Can I officially rename the Test Site to StampChat?

March 14, 2004 Greg Ioannou <gregioannou at rogers.com>

Perfin
The perfin is TRAV -- Traveler's Insurance, one of the very common ones.

March 14, 2004 prometheus

Thanks Bill D and Matt
Bill d = I can not make out anything for sure except maybe an L at the end.

Matt L = Just like fishing " I hold my mouth right"

March 14, 2004 Bill Dempwolf

Bill

March 14, 2004 prometheus

I also picked up these
Nice little grilled 2ctoncover

and also got this because of condition.
3cent

March 14, 2004 Matt Liebson

Pro: how do you keep finding this stuff? No, not common. The Bomar catalog values at $60 (and reports about 50 known).

Finished 2 day club show this afternoon, sales were good although attendance was not all that strong. Unfortunately for me, many sales to dealers (i.e., discount). Was able to buy a little bit of material, including a nice cover from Philadelphia with 5 copies of #210 to Panama.

March 14, 2004 949 prometheus

Back with new stuff (again)
Bill D any idea on this one Perfined

Nomad
is this a common type exposition-station-flag

March 14, 2004 Paolo Bagaglia

The Board
Hi, Dave!
It is me who should have intervened before, when the problems started. I confess I perplexed and didn't know what to write.
As you know, but I am not willing to bring it up as an excuse, my ability (or willingness) in catching up on posts has consistently decreased later. Maybe it's the change of season or a temporary cyclic glitch in the conversion system in my brain, maybe I just miss to think in my way of thinking, maybe I am just so upset of feeling like an alien everywhere. Maybe too many maybe's. Though sometimes I can so radically differ and take distance, w/o feeling indebted of begging anything, from other's thoughts and/or conclusions and/or behaviour and/or form. And again too many or's. ;-)
On the board I linked I generally tend to catch up successfully and not to make those individualistic self standing remarks, as though of an atoll surfacing in the middle of nowhere, which might characterize, after deeper reflection, a few of my recent entries here or elsewhere.

Regarding your board: those are great news!
I can say I go to sleep happier, now (as it's way past bed time for me).

All the best,
Paolo
 

March 14, 2004 15:36 Dave F. (moderator)

Hi, Paolo! I've been meaning to say hi to you in the recent past, and apologize for not having done so. Don't give up on us yet -- hopefully we can come up with a way that meets people's needs (including, selfishly, mine) without too much compromise.

March 14, 2004 Paolo Bagaglia

I take the chance to express my compliments and thanks to Dave F for having kept this board going.
I count myself among those who will sorely miss it! I will certainly keep using the StampChat Archives as useful, excellent reference.
Good continuation, Paolo B.

March 14, 2004 15:16 Dave F. (moderator)

Bob in WA: Saw your post earlier and tried to edit it for you, but a little idiocyncracy in the host software wouldn't let me until the message got shoved a little further down the board.

It is very easy to make the time field mandatory. However, it cannot do a logic check to see if the response makes sense, and I figured (knowing my audience!) that making it mandatory would just give the creative and non-conformist types here yet another opportunity to express themselves thusly. : )

Still working on some alternatives that are both relatively easy to use and technologically more robust ... More later.

March 14, 2004 3:33:33 !! Bob in WA

puzzle

Paolo -- (+ NOIP) I just posted another little challenge over there, a bit more accessible, I think, and not English dependant. You might enjoy looking at it.

March 14, 2004 nomad55

Paul B
A minor comment on your new board. Do the thumbnail graphics (or any graphics at all) add anything positive? I think not. Graphics take up bandwidth and are slow to load. May I politely suggest deleting them entirely? Stay with text.

March 14, 2004 Paolo Bagaglia

Bob in WA,
Thanks for the solution to your quiz given on the other board by Terry!
Kind regards,
Paolo Bagaglia

March 14, 2004 1:33 pm Bob in WA

Roger -- Great summary of events. Thank you.

March 14, 2004 13.30 Knud-Erik Andersen

March 14, 2004 Paolo Bagaglia

It is fascinating how forgetful some of you can be. I should have all the files in memory on a page in my old computer (I think).
In case you didn't know, Users should get the Saxon Genitive which consists of an apostrophe like this: Users' (means "of the Users").
For the chronicle, I had updated that page long ago and I am NOT criminalizing anything or anybody but your lack of information and your -- at this point finally I can say it -- outrageously unrewarding behaviour. I spent THREE DAYS (my meetings lasted three days) for the votation prior to UPDATE the amendment and that by itself took some hours as the quorum wasn't reached so I asked and waited for the permission of the past Presidents (G.1, Iomoon and Cableguy52), the Executive Assistant (claghorn1p) and the APS representative.

Make an exam of your conscience.

My last post on this subject (I already had the chance to vent about it enough on eBay stamp chat).

Bye, bye
Paolo Bagaglia
 

March 14, 2004 Jim Whitford-Stark

These things are listed as perforated in Scott, so am I correct in assuming they are "reprints".
If the latter is the case, should they be listed on eBay in cinderellas or can they go with "regular" stamps.

March 14, 2004 Marius

Jim, I tried both ways. I did finally get on.
 

March 14, 2004 Jim Whitford-Stark

Marius
Try the "post a message" rather than "go to log in".
I was getting the same message and the alternative route seemed to work.

March 14, 2004 Marius <stampmad@bigpond.net.au>

Thanks.

March 14, 2004 David Benson

Richard W,

Just to reply to your comment regarding forgeries. At the moment a 24c. Inverted Jenny Repro that is being sold by a reseller has already reached $55 and another day to go. It is one of those amazing items that lost it's backstamp while flying too high over the Atlantic,

David B.

March 14, 2004 Michael Walter http://www.kbnet.com/book/html/stampchat2.html
 

P.S. The board is up and running!
 

March 14, 2004 20:13 CET Paul B <philaweb at (remove) yahoo dot dk>

What's cooking?
Wanna know how filled pancakes looks like? Yummy! 387 kb download!

March 14, 2004 19:57 CET Paul B

Oooops... Got my name wrong in the last post, I was the author. :-)

March 14, 2004 19:56 CET Brian R <philaweb at (remove) yahoo dot dk>

New prototype board
Brian R You're absolutely right - I wont post any e-mails or anything similar. I would like to focus on what I like to do and for what I have the time - webdesign. That's why we're going to be a team, people with other skills than I have to run the remaining sides of a board - moderation, communication, legalities etc. I can't and wont do it all by myself.
Roger H *hehe* I like the way you summarize... You should make a board diary. ;-) I have nothing against diversity - let people create as many boards they want, there is a natural end to demands somewhere. What I would like is to keep the spirit we've had on this board for the last year - and previously had on the eBay Stamp Chat Board, before eBay went public.

March 14, 2004 Roger Heath

Boards
Here's the issue. There were hints on the horizon that Ebay was having real problems with topics discussed on both its open chat board and then its Stamp Discussion Board. A conflict of interest was obvious, if Ebay listened to the "whiners", it lost revenue, If Ebay didn't support its sellers, the sellers could threaten to sell elsewhere. It was in Ebay's interest to remain stupid and squash anything related to "bad" auctions on its site.
Along come knowledgeable collectors and a national TV news reporter and what do we know? Ebay has a hidden fraud unit, Trust and Safety takes care of miscreants, only one major problem - collectors only had Chat and the occasional pinkliner, Power Sellers had a phone number to "Ebay".
Later as the volcano erupted, Ebay pulls plug on Stamps Discussion Board, hires outside Live World Moderators to delete noncomplying posts, and finds it necessary to hire an outside associate for peanuts. As expressed before, here in Hawaii the word is "shibai".

Luckily there had been silent movement in the background where a new Board was being setup in case of emergency, wise men indeed. Over a certain weekend this Board was opened, and the borders flooded with refugees who were tired of obnoxious corporate rules. New rules came into being because some thought the turf was vacant and considered it the Wild West. Wrong! Slowly discussions began to loses their fire and outrage, and philately once again raised its head.

The Sheriff decided his job was done and told the folks, "Thanks for the help, but I need a rest, someone else must take on the job." Volunteers came forward offering support and a few spent many hours creating new means of communication. The community is in effect being asked to chose one new Board to continue as in the past. Maybe this just isn't necessary. As we see Ebay Chat still exists, Richard's Board still exists, the Virtual Stamp Club exists, Stampoffers exists, etc., etc. There obviously is a place for everyone, so I'm all for the new Boards evolving and offering different looks, features, access, topics, etc., etc. But - if everyone had the same thoughts about transportation, all cars would be identical, and here if everyone had the same thoughts about a Chat Board they would all be identical. There is no ideal where all agree. I think the more the merrier, then those who are bored with certain topics won't have to read them as they'll never be discussed on the Board they frequent. Etc., etc.

Paul make the Board the best way you know how, give it features you think may be of use in the future, don't take any comments personally, as you've written before, this whole experience has made you a better communicator with your computer. In 10 years you will be far ahead of us gray haired fogies and maybe have your own software company! Keep up the good work, but (as written below) don't become Microsoft and have features for all possibilities, decide which features you would like to see on a Chat and do it. There are too many of us voicing opinions to be of much help.

If one takes the time to look at Ebay Chat Boards other than stamps, there are discoveries to be made. Some have posts going back to January, some scroll in 5 hours with nothing posted requiring a single thought, others though specialized don't discuss the stated topic. We've been very lucky to have a group of collectors who through a couple of major changes still speak to each other.

Roger

March 14, 2004 Brian R

Sit back and watch the fun. I can't wait until the first howls from the "wronged" scam artists come in. LOL Alas, I suspect the Paul B has a too ingrained a sense of fair play, to post the emails....:o)

March 14, 2004 Bob H.

Brian.. The two remaining Federal taxes that require stamps are the hunting license or "duck" stamps and firearm transfer tax stamps - if you must own a machine gun you will need to buy a $200 stamp for your permit. There is a $5 transfer stamp as well, for things like little novelty guns you can conceal in your prayer book. Regular firearms don't require them.

March 14, 2004 Brian R

As a smoker I can confirm that the stamps are gone from cigarettes.
As a drinker, can also confirm they're gone from the liquor bottles too.
Obviously, the taxes aren't gone, just being collected wholesale.
Interestingly, many tobacco/liquor companies print their own facsimle "label"
which is designed to mimic the old revenue stamp.
 

March 14, 2004 Michael Walter http://www.kbnet.com/book/html/stampchat2.html
 

New Board
Hi all! I have been very busy at work lately. Here is a board that I have set up that is almost the same as this one. Anyone who wants please feel free to use it. Feedback would be appreciated!
 

March 14, 2004 Richard Warren

Yep, it's a cultural difference all right ....

March 14, 2004 7:17 Dave F. (moderator)

Thanks for everyone's input so far. I'll check back in a little later for additional comments and offer a more detailed response.

Jim W: Good luck with the show!

Paul B: I'm very impressed with all your development efforts and your willingness to help solve our problems on here. Many thanks. (I don't want you to think you are being "put upon" in any way.)

March 14, 2004 04:57 Jim Watson

March 14, 2004 Jim Lawler

Jim L.

March 14, 2004 14:44 CET Paul B <philaweb at (remove) yahoo dot dk>

BTW... Don't think I will be disappointed in any way on the new prototype board. It's a great learning experience. Dave F I'll come back to your e-mails later.

March 14, 2004 Brian McInturff

First, no disrespect here intended for anyone. Paul, your board is nice and well laid out. You were/are building on what people hav e said they'd like to see.
Dave, your board here is simplistic. And it has proven itself by it still being very active, the same as Richard's board. I agree that everyone likes simple things. I agree whole heartily with Roger.
The problem with some is they feel the "grass is always greener" syndrome which some of us knows usually fails. Being exmilitary I feel if it's not broke don't fix it.
This layout works best because it allows everyone a chance to scroll through the postings. Maybe an archive area where everything gets put into a threaded group but my vote would be for this same type layout.
Dave, Maybe one of the simple things to do is just put a disclaimer alleviating you of any and all comments made.

March 14, 2004 14:02 CET Paul B

Richard R CYE!

March 14, 2004 Richard Reynolds <rick99@verizon.net>

Registration
Paul B.
I looked back at my emails and havn't recieved any other than the normal spam. I went back and R. my name from Bossman53 to Bossman533 and still no email password, even though Bossman53 shows up as a good name on the board, still can't get it to recognize password???????
 

March 14, 2004 04:00 Jim Watson

My second item is an International Reply Coupon from Germany in 1931. Learn about these interesting issues used in courteous international correspondence.

March 14, 2004 13:04 CET Paul B

Mew prototype board
Dave P I know you didn't. :-) We do have three boards at present, two of them being prototype boards - so I understand your post was generally speaking.

March 14, 2004 Dave P

If the board ends up being the playground of an isolated clique (even if I am a member!) it ceases to be useful. It must be easily found by 1) those named, and 2) other potential buyers. In other words it must be a readily available useful information source to the philatelic computer using public to have a real purpose.

March 14, 2004 12:49 CET Paul B

Sorry... time for a cuppa mocca
Forgot to mention - Link to poll. 36 votes where given, many thanks for your support!
Now, I need a cuppa mocca... :-)

March 14, 2004 12:45 CET Paul B

So, I've discontinued the HiddenBoard - there is only one board now, it's public and guest visitors can post without having to register first.
 

March 14, 2004 12:10 CET Paul B <philaweb at (remove) yahoo dot dk>

Questions then are:
Why is it we want to enhance the board? (filtering hooligans, giving board host more legal protection etc.)
Do we want to enhance the board?
Do we think people are able to correct, improve their behaviour?
Can we meet all people's expectations with this board?
Place your questions here!

March 14, 2004 11:54 CET Paul B <philaweb at (remove) yahoo dot dk>

Dave P, Roger H et al Yes, I have said this board is primitive - just like it is primitive in our modern world to live in a big city and never have to close your front door. The reason why Dave F wants to skip board hosting is because people can't get their act right - people don't think of the legal consequenses of their behaviour. Well, if everyone posted their thoughts, opinions with the respect Dave F deserves as board host - this board format would be perfectly adequate to host innocent chat on stamp related topics. But, some people never seem to understand the consequenses of their words and actions.
The reason why I spend my spare time on developing another board - which BTW is just a little less primitive than this (registration feature, IP ban feature, memberlist, profiles) - is to enhance the functionality of this board. I really don't know how I can make it more primitive and still offer the options of filtering out potential hooligans. This (Dave F's) board needs a doorman function and Dave F is tired of being used as doormat. This board is to my knowledge not able to have several moderators - well, the prototype board I've tuned down is.
If you don't want my prototype board for other reasons - that's fine with me. Just don't give me any fairytales on how hard it is to register etc. - more than 50 people have already registered!!!

March 14, 2004 11:33 CET Paul B <philaweb at (remove) yahoo dot dk>

New threaded board
Bill W Consider it done. :-) BTW... Why do you want to register? It's possible to post as a guest - just like on this board.

March 14, 2004 Dave P

I know, primative = primitive

March 14, 2004 Dave P

KISS
I have a washing machine with a choice of 20 wash cycles - I only ever use 3. Ninety percent of the "features" of Microsoft Word are never used by me, I can never foresee a time when I will need them
Computer software developers have a tendancy to get carried away with the beauty of their programs and forget what they are trying to do - the program ceases to be a means to an end, but becomes the end in itself.

David, this board is not primative, it is elegant in its simplicity.

March 13, 2004 Roger Heath

Miscellany
Pro - Thanks.

David - The whole beauty of this board is exactly as you described it, a communal room where people come and go as they have time or interest. I've been to many meetings, and groups form around different topics, but the common thread is interesting conversation. I have yet to find a board that provides the same environment as do yours and Richard's.

I would probably taper off posting if I have to choose topics to read. I can either read detailed posts here or skip them, but in between may be a little gem that won't get posted on a threaded Board because the owner or poster can't decide which topic title to post under and isn't interested in starting a new thread, which to a certain extent is an ego trip. ("My topic is so important, I'm starting a new thread!")

We can continue here, as you've seen, discussing many topics that are non-controversial and relevant to collecting. I know the forgery business was a two edged sword, but in my opinion it is becoming a dead issue until anyone discovers whether the process is accomplishing anything at all. If Ebay is serious, the monitoring will be increased to cover all sites. We'll never know if it's a placebo if we aren't privy to the data before and after APS intervention. I personally have seen so many Swiss forgeries on .com and on Ebay Germany during the last week that I don't care any more. If they say forgery, that's probably what they are, and if someone pays $50 for a modern reprint of a classic stamp, I guess they should have stayed in 6th grade one more year and learned something about the dictionary meaning of rarity. I'm honestly getting tired of loooking at Basel Doves, and not being able to find Basel razor cancels.

I'm interested in reading about any possibility of this Board continuing in its present format. I'm an old dog and this is easier than the Ebay Board, and as Prometheus so eloquently stated:
"most Philatelist are in the Upper age range and thus the simple is better."
He is making a valid observation from his perspective. LOL No talk of lady friends this weekend, so I guess it's stamps for all of us. I was starting to get jealous!!

Roger

March 13, 2004 prometheus

Dave F
20178 Entries / 304520 Visitors since May 16, 2003

That says it all

It is apparent to me that most Philatelist are in the Upper age range and thus the simple is better.
They do not need to learn bells and whistles
They Do Not want to learn Bells and whistles
They want to read and sometimes discuss stamps.

20178 Entries / 304520 Visitors since May 16, 2003

Again The numbers do not present anything other than the ease
of use most find here.

here are some other stamp related chat numbers
Today: 2 Total: 6877 longer running than your board
another Threads: 506, Posts: 1,546
since 2002


Roger H ok CYE

 

March 13, 2004 21:20 Dave F. (moderator)

One thing I forgot to mention (what else is new?):

Richard's board seems to overcome the obstacle of low-techness with the caliber of the information discussed there.

One could argue that it's the difference in the quality of the participants between here and there, but in the information I requested last November about philatelic memberships (still never posted, by the way, but still also with the best of intentions to do so), I noted that there was a significant overlap in the participants on Richard's board with those who responded. So I think it may be a matter of who chooses to say what where, rather than the audience being so drastically different. Also, clearly the subject matter on his board is more advanced, since there are sometimes references that I simply can't follow. I don't encounter that so much here.

At any rate, Richard's board demonstrates that the objective of philatelic discussion can thrive without being necessarily so high tech. (I note that no one seems to criticize him about the inadequecies of it.)

March 13, 2004 21:10 Dave F. (moderator)

David K & Bill W. et al. David, you did give me pause with your suggestion.

I appreciate that, no matter how well the other protoype boards are designed, it does require some additional effort to feel like a part of it. I suppose the analogy is that, with both of those boards, because of the different folders (or "forums", as I believe they're called), to me it almost feels like you're at a conference center and just going around from meeting room to meeting room to see if you can find the group you're supposed to meet with. Whereas this board, because of its "low-techness", you just feel like you walk in the front door and there you are in the living room, with the conversation already going on around you, and you just dive in.

Does that seem to capture some of the differences?

If so, then I may have an idea for how to help create more of that feeling on one of the other boards. I'll check with one of the developers and see what we can do.

In the meantime, since my announcement several weeks ago, this board has actually gotten easier to deal with. I don't know if people are on their best behavior or have simply lost interest. : )

That said, my gut feeling is still that this board has some technological shortcomings, including the inability to block someone, plus the clumsy way one would search for past posts, and the absence of any kind of threading, and I really felt like I've gotten my ears pinned back on that several times, especially about how primitive it is.

On the other hand, I appreciate that others of you have said that in the simplicity of this board lies its charm. Perhaps for that reason it's more easily able to create a sense of community. As several have said before, it may be that the absence of threads may facilite that sense of community, since everybody participates in one space.

Maybe it's a trade-off of community-building vs organization of information?

Comments?

March 13, 2004 prometheus

David K
your card shows 4 machine markings
a pair of the Portland ore dec 28 1904 (with the 1905 slogan in killer )
Underneath the Horizontal one of the Pair
Is a Washington DC 1905
reciever ( note the wavy lines thru the pair of slogan cancels)
this is the one that I think is messing with your mind
and on the bottom of the card is also another washington - recieved (doremus ) lightly imprinted from the Station that actually delievered the card .
The card started out in 04 and was delievered in 05
on the other coast.

I have many Wash DC cards which show multiple handling in the city.

March 13, 2004 David K.

I'll be a little clearer on this: there are 3 cancelation dates on the postcard linked below; 2 1905 and ONE 1904 under it; interesting to say the least!

March 13, 2004 Roger Heath

Pro
I'll be sending you an email, but I thought everyone would like to compare these two cards with your 1909 Geneve card. Youre picture is the same as my top card which went to Lugano. Obviously people through the years like to buy and keep the same pictures and follow the fashion in mailing cards.
Roger

March 13, 2004 Bill Weiss

WON'T WORK!!
PAUL B. Look, I don't want to be a wiseguy about this, but I just tried to register 5 more times on your board, just the way you suggested below, and it keeps telling me that I'm an "Invalid User", so to keep me from further frustration, I am giving up. However, I certainly am willing to join that board but YOU can register me. My name is Bill Weiss and my email is wrw43@rcn.com. Now if it's so easy, why don't you just take care of it for me? I will be away all day tomorrow and will try to check here tomorrow night to see what the status is. Fair enough? If you don't want to register me for whatever your reason, then that's fine with me. I think Dave Frick will attest to the amount and quality of the infortmation I can add to any chatboard, but I'll be damned if I'm going to kill myself trying to register!

March 13, 2004 prometheus

Found in an old envelope
one-cent

March 13, 2004 Bob H.

Pro - yup - that's a label so of less interest to a taxpaid collector.

March 13, 2004 prometheus

Interesting Postage Due
Seen-Here

March 13, 2004 prometheus

David K
The slogan part was Advertizing the Upcoming in 1905 fair.

March 13, 2004 David K. <eaglearts@aol.com>

Seems the PO couldn't make up their minds; either it was 1904 or 1905! The World's Fair date is clear but... If anyone whould like this for their collection.. it's outside of my current interests let me know. click here

March 13, 2004 5:29 pm Steve Taylor (aka philcomp) http://www.timeblaster.com/tbeindex.shtml
 

More Quality Stamps on eBay?
It is my impression that there has been a significant increase in the number of decent quality classic US stamps offered on eBay since the turn of the year. I refer primarily to better centered items such as used Banknotes. I haven't bought that many stamps in the time period so I can't comment on undescribed thins, creases, etc but there do seem to be more decently centered items.
Has anyone else noticed this?


 

March 13, 2004 prometheus

Bob H
I'm guessing just a label,
SEEHERE

remember promotional packs (even today) are not taxed

 

March 13, 2004 Bob H.

Been putting together an article on these for the United States Specialist and find it much easier to illustrate state revenues on the original item, like one of those bedding tags that threaten violent retribution if you remove it, than federal taxpaid revenues on item.

March 13, 2004 prometheus <prometheus@1internetdrive.com>

Scans for Roger H + a neat thing I got today

First the neat item

Camel

and sealed inside the Cellophane POTUS



Roger H I on Dial up and my email is slow but the free Picture host grabs them quick

The first was not on your request list but is this what you were asking about for 03 uses
Here-03-non-razors I have more I'm sure if you need to see.

Geneve10907
and the front Herepic

stGallen9903

and the Front

Gallen30408
and the front

Luzern22vii21
and the front

and another norway to see
Kristiania and the front

I have others need more Swiss to see

March 13, 2004 David Benson

Dave P,

about 20 years ago I described a whole collection of Channel Islands material for a special sale, about 800 lots which included some major rarities. I can't remember a single item like that. It had about 1,000 Red Cross enquiry forms and about 40 pre stamp covers.

Out for about 4 or 5 hours,

David B.

March 13, 2004 David Benson

Dave, yes, I meant to say commercial usage not Philatelic. Must have been very little usage,

David B.

March 13, 2004 Dave P

David B I noticed the misspelling too late to change it. Luckily I spelt it correctly in the description!. In the past I have had several lots of GB stationery uprated with occupation issues, but they have been fairly obviously philatelic, so I guess that was the difference.

March 13, 2004 Paul B

Ah... The address is the same though: http://www.lettonica.info/StampChat

March 13, 2004 Paul B

Ah... The address is the same though: http://www.lettonica.info/StampChat

March 13, 2004 David Benson

Dav, you most probably would have got more if you have spelt Guernsey correctly. I can't recall seeing an occupation issue used on GB Postal Stationery before.

David B.

March 13, 2004 22:55 CET Paul B <philaweb at (remove) yahoo dot dk>

BBL...

March 13, 2004 Dave P

I really find it very difficult to judge postal history values on Ebay. I was very pleased and surprised by the realisation on this Jersey cover. It is quite a nice item, but is it really worth £62.00? A GB reply card used from Argentina also went for a lot more than I expected tonight (£25.00), is it that I am just out of touch?

March 13, 2004 Richard W

Many thanks! Appreciated. My K was in the middle of the Monaco thing. To be there in the first place, he must have enjoyed favour in high places. I assume he may still.

March 13, 2004 Ken Lawrence

Richard W

I'll try to find Stu's old article next week when I'm at APRL. If you don't have an answer from me in a week, remind me please. I don't think your K holds any official post in the bureaucracy at present.

March 13, 2004 Richard W

Many thanks! Appreciated. My K was in the middle of the Monaco thing. To be there in the first place, he must have enjoyed favour in high places. I assume he may still.

March 13, 2004 Ken Lawrence

Richard W

I'll try to find Stu's old article next week when I'm at APRL. If you don't have an answer from me in a week, remind me please. I don't think your K holds any official post in the bureaucracy at present.

March 13, 2004 Roger Heath

Use dates
I thought I had included the town St. Gallen. That is the location of the referenced use dates below.

Roger

March 13, 2004 Roger Heath

Norway Dates
Pro -
I've noticed in my collecting a few duplicate dates. I have wrappers with razor cancels mailed on the same day/same hour to different addresses in different countries, so I'm not surprised that the Norway are same date. I assume they all went to the same address. I am interested in taking a closer look. Another anomaly are use dates for example July 1902 - December 1907. I only have found 3 outside of 1904. The next cancel is listed as Feb 1908 - April 1912 and nearly all are summer of 1908. In my opinion these cancelers had real use dates, then were used in emergency situations at other times. So it goes.
My email is rheath at kona dot net.

Roger

March 13, 2004 RW

garble
soory, sorry .....

March 13, 2004 RW

Ken
Soory, garbled that post about K. Should have added if it's the blocs-feuillets again, I have that info, thanks. But if something else, would be interested.

March 13, 2004 Richard W

same board, new moderator
But wasn't the idea partly to move to an offshore registration, to avoid any more litigatious bullying?

March 13, 2004 Richard Warren

JKen, this bit about your Mr K (not mine) was interesting:,P>"When Stuart Morrissey (president of Scott Publishing Company) was still alive and Kroo was still actual (not ancien) president of ASCAT, K issued his order to obey the FIP-ASCAT-IFSDA-UPU ban. Stu promptly resigned from ASCAT and published an article describing K's involvement with certain bogus issues." Can you point me towards that article? I'd be interested to know which issues were the subject of the allegation. Thanks.

March 13, 2004 prometheus

Roger H
Just heading out to look thru some inflation Material will scan all
when we return.

On the Norway Yes I have the same date on a couple , I think I sent you the Best Looking one . I was excited to find them and then disapointed at the same time because all same day. From same to same.
It's just like one of the Virginia (or W.V. ) Doanes the list shows 6 days use found so far.
this week I found 5 but alas all in that tiny window Drats.

March 13, 2004 02:47 Jim Watson

My second item is a postal card cover from Chile in 1899. It has an attractive design printed by the American Bank Note Company.
 

March 13, 2004 10:51 CET Paul B <philaweb at (remove) yahoo dot dk>

New prototype board
Bill Weiss First of all - I don't think it is difficult to register at my prototype board, at least more than 40 other people actually have registered. Secondly, to register you first visit this page. In the upper right corner is the text: "You can register for free by clicking here", and when you do that - click the link - you come to this page. All you need to provide is a username (handle) and an e-mail address. Please let me know where it asks for a password? The password you will get when the admin (me) has approved you as a member.

March 13, 2004 00.59 Knud-Erik Andersen

March 13, 2004 00.58 Knud-Erik Andersen

March 13, 2004 Marius <stampmad@bigpond.net.au>

Bridges
Bob in WA I was in the local PO today and noticed that Australia has just issued a series on bridges. If you want a set either on cover or as a strip of 5 let me know.

March 13, 2004 almost midnite Bob in WA

Richard R -- Sincerest condolences for both of your downers, and I hope you make it to the 30% group. I had a dog for 16 years and almost 20 years after losing her still have fond memories and a nice 8x10 of just the two of us hangs on the wall behind me. As to your covers, if they should still have contents many people are interested in old correspondences and you might consider that approach also. Seemingly mundane letters can give fascinating insights into life as it was, no longer in living memory.

March 13, 2004 Anne

Good night to all and to all sweet dreams of a plethora of boards, a plethora of posts, and a plethora of posters to post on them.

March 12, 2004 Roger Heath

Pro Razors
I'm interested in seeing 4 of the razors full side of card, cover, or wrapper. etc..
Geneve 10.IX.07
St. Gallen 9.IX.03
30.IV.08
Luzern 21.VII.21

and yes the Norway date is 18 VII 07. Do you have another? He, he!

Roger
 

March 12, 2004 David Moser <stamphick@dospalos.org>

David

March 12, 2004 Bill Weiss

GREAT IDEA?!
DAVE; That sounds too easy - but is it? Maybe Dave (Moderator) could respond. It sounds like a great idea to me!

March 12, 2004 David K.

I hate to suggest the obvious; why doesn't Dave F. just turn THIS BOARD over to another MODERATOR? TRANSFER TITLE; OWNERSHIP; whatever it takes. Really, this board works so well and is so established. Any new concepts could be adopted here as well. Come on Dave, sell out instead of close out!

March 12, 2004 Dunc

Bill W

It probably doesn't like the space in your name, Bill.

Try typing Bill_Weiss or BillWeiss.

Dunc

March 12, 2004 Bill Weiss

Paul B's Board
I just tried to register there and it won't let me! What am I doing wrong? It asks for the user name and I type in Bill Weiss, then it asks for a password, and I type it in, I then log in and it comes back and says "invalid". Why should this be so tough?

March 12, 2004 prometheus

Eric thanks for that note
As a non linn's person I sometimes wonder if I miss anything good.

I saw a lot of those selling for under face and figured they were just stolen by scummy employees .

March 12, 2004 Ken Lawrence

New Site or Existing Site?

While everyone is considering the alternatives, I would encourage y'all to join the Virtual Stamp Club and to participate in the Message Board there (linked from the home page). The threads are separated by subject, but everything we have discussed here since I came by last fall would be equally welcome there, minus the rancor and the attacks on APS.

www.virtualstampclub.com (click on Message Board, log in)

VSC members frequently link to and discuss and ridicule eBay lots, though the exchanges haven't yet included expectations that APS has some extraordinary ability to intervene. Many of the participants are big eBay sellers and buyers who also advertise their sales on VSC. A majority of APS elected leaders are members and participants, so engaging them in dialogue is easy.

The only annoying part is the commercial aspect. As a Delphi forum, free users are subjected to occasional pop-up ads. Those who pay modest dues can suppress them.

Philatelic questions are cheerfully answered for every level of sophistication. VSC also tends to post U.S. and worldwide stamp news sooner than any other publication. The host Lloyd de Vries, APS Secretary, is the stamp collecting reporter for CBS radio news.

March 12, 2004 18:13 Eric Dyck http://www.KansasFolks.net
 

Forgeries Reported in Linn's
Lead article in Linn's today: Forged 2002 37¢ Flag Stamps Discovered "What are described as extremely good forgeries of a 2002 US 37¢ Flag stamp [Sc3635] were sold in large quantities on the Internet auction house eBay in late January and early February..." The microprinted "USPS" and tagging are absent from the forged stamps. They bear plate number B5555, and were sold in panes of20 like the original. The USPIS is on the case. There were probably a lot more sold via other venues, and postally used examples are likely.

Eric

March 12, 2004 prometheus

K.E.
Thanks for the scans and information
even tho I am not interested in that late/modern stuff it was still interesting and explains some material I have seen
I like the one where the mark was devalued
I have seen those before and always wondered why the
number of stamps.

March 12, 2004 17:22 Dave F. (moderator) <dfrick@pacificanalytics.com>

Naturally, I forgot something.

If you'd like to share your remarks with me personally, offline, please feel free to send me an email instead.

Thanks!

March 12, 2004 17:20 Dave F. (moderator) <dfrick@pacificanalytics.com>

board alternatives
For those of you who've been checking in here, you know that Paul B. has put an impressive amount of time into developing an alternative site, and a number of you have visited it. The link to Paul's site is here: http://www.lettonica.info/StampChat

I have also been aware for some time that another site prototype was also in development, and, indeed, had known about it before Paul so admirably jumped in to help out. Indeed, the reader with a good memory may recall that I had alluded to the possible development of such a site a while back, but I was not entirely sure of its status or timing.

A rough prototype of that site is now available, and the link to it is here: http://uruguaystamps.com/phpBB2/

Could I ask interested people to take a look at this site, get a feel for its functionality, try out a posting or two, etc.?

If possible, could we direct the discussion about the pros and cons of either board back here to this site? But in doing so, please be mindful that the people who developed both of these alternatives have very generously given of their time and talents, for which I am very appreciative.

I am tempted to go into a discussion of some of the factors that should be taken into consideration in the development of alternative sites, but I think it would be best to hold off on that for a bit, and just get people's reactions and suggestions instead.

Thanks for your time, and hats off to everyone who has helped out!

March 12, 2004 Ken Lawrence

Knud-Erik

Where is your June 1948 local handstamp overprint (HOP, we call them) cover from the Soviet Zone immediately after the currency reform? To me those are the most interesting currency reform issues.

I have an exhibit of the 1990 D-Mark currency unification stamps and postal stationery of East Germany, first period at old DDR postal rates, with DDR stamps still valid in the East, but new stamps valid both East and West, paying separate rates; second period, uniform rates, old stamps still valid in East; third period, unification, DDR and West Berlin stamps demonetized but D-Mark issues of DDR and BRD valid everywhere in Germany. I have every conceivable usage East and West, East to West, West to East, international destinations, mixed frankings, etc.

March 12, 2004 David K.

Richard; no argument here except the fact that the printing shade of blue appears on the reverse side fibers due to having been stacked with other wet blue stamp ink. There is no way that I know of to get a blue from a green. The previous report of a dual two tone green/blue stamp stands to reason when the bluish green was recorded for #538. A blue missing the green shading is an error in my mind but allows for the weakest link by the experts. They just didn't clean the ink roller thoroughly enough after a blue printing. A uniform sun attack would have lightened the paper as well. The NEW item for show tonight is this #305 click here Fabulous color switch.

March 12, 2004 15.39 Knud-Erik Andersen

March 12, 2004 Jim Whitford-Stark

I have just had the weirdest email exchange.
I emailed allkor stamp company about prices of North Korean stamps.
I get reply from George Epstein giving availability and prices.
I reply fine, put them aside for me, I'll pay by Paypal.
I get back a response that "I don't accept Paypal", despite
this on their website.
Return email states pay by cash between two sheets of paper.

Does this guy not accept US checks?
Last message is someone must be playing with my web site, good luck with your search for stamps.
Anyone have any ideas?

March 12, 2004 Jim Whitford-Stark

I updated the Postal Validation Imprints site, if anyone is interested.
Paul
I made the mistake of trying to access your site via netscape 4.5.
My computer whirred for about 20 minutes, accomplishing nothing, before I killed it.
Before you scream update your browser, I have.
Just I linked via your email which I read in netscape 4.5.
And BTW, my web site records hits from someone in Norway using an unknown operating system and Netscape 3.0.

March 12, 2004 22:33 CET Paul B <philaweb at (remove) yahoo dot dk>

Where is my registration mail?
Richard R Have a look in your spam. Several inquiries on this subject has been posted to this board. It seems some US e-mail services has defined the country code .dk (Denmark) as being a spam country - or perhaps it's just the Yahoo domain name? You should have received the registration mail from the e-mail address mentioned above.

March 12, 2004 David Benson

Rob, when you list them, don't bother with Scott's numbers in the Title area. You can mention it in the description. I doubt if many collectors in HK have heard of Scott's let alone have one.
Just a basic decription will entice the bidders such as
HONG KONG, 1880 5 Cents on 18c. Lilac, lhm.

David B.

March 12, 2004 Dave P

for PRO
Thanks for the offer, but better not. In the present climate receiving a phial of suspicious looking liquid from overseas may just earn me a visit from some big guys with blank faces! Actually I have had some luck with a few solutions I have tried (the stamps were basically ruined anyhow). I can bleach out the stain, but 1) it takes off most of the gum, and 2) it leaves a stain under UV. Condition is everything on those mint prewar Europeans so except for the odd very valuable stamp it is not worth my time and effort.

March 12, 2004 David Benson

John, looks OK, worth more than $25 today,

David B.

March 12, 2004 12.18 pm John Gordon <johnr@castlemoyle.com>

yet another Jubilee
David B and others,

Since it's Hong Kong Jubilee review, any comments on this copy?

I purchased it in the early 80's for $6 or so. I was quite impressed with myself for having found it at the time Scott's valuation went from around $10 to $25. Hopefully I wasn't snookered...

John

March 12, 2004 Rob Faux

Ok, you beat me to it.

Thanks again. Will have to take the time to list.

March 12, 2004 Rob Faux

David B I'm on my way out, so won't be able to reply. Thanks again for the input.

In your opinion, would these do well on ebay? I'm always happy to sell directly to people, but I realize there may be a few more HK collectors keeping an eye out on ebay. I'm in no rush to sell, but it's good to pay attention to where they will do best.

Rob

March 12, 2004 David Benson

Rob, if you are looking for a new home for them, Ebay does exceptionally well for early H K, especially items like those. They should all go to a nice home somewhere high on the hill in HK and guessing will realise about $4000.

David B.

March 12, 2004 David Benson

Rob, there are some nice stamps there, I can't see any problems with any of them. The 12c. on Postal Fiscal is an exceptionally rare stamp as well as the 5c. on 18c. You will make some HK collectors jealous by showing those.

The Jubilee overprint was forged from about the time it was issued as it was a very limited issue and most collectors missed out on it.

David B.
 

March 12, 2004 Rob Faux

David Thanks for the help! Caught you online, I did! :)

They break my rule - not used - so I will have to find them new homes. Might help me chase some postal history I would like for my exhibit.

March 12, 2004 David Benson

Rob, all look 100% kosher (and nice).

Don't worry about minor variations from catalogue design as they were overprinted from a forme which had many slight variants.

David Benson

March 12, 2004 Rob Faux

Whereas This 20 cent overprint has a normally sized 'S'. The C still leans some, but not quite the same.

And, I think this 7 cent overprint is probably good.

As is this 1 dollar

March 12, 2004 Rob Faux

HK overprints
On the 20 cent, I see a leaning 'C' and a small 'S' in 'Cents' which gave me pause...

Meant to add that to the last post...

March 12, 2004 Rob Faux

HK overprints
David What think you of these:

1 dollar overprint

5 cents overprint

20 cents overprint

12 cents overprint

These I feel better about than the tall K, but would love to hear other comments.

Rob

March 12, 2004 Rob Faux

David B Thanks for the comments on the Tall K overprint. I actually did mean to put a question mark on that one when posting. So, it was nice that you and Lavar responded with confirmation of my suspicion. Didn't realize that there is a good online resource for checking these now - good to know that.

Guessing that one got its overprint prior to 1950 since it was in my spouse's grandfather's possession since that time...and no, he didn't have printing equipment to try his hand on his own overprints... :)

March 12, 2004 David Benson

Richard, I particularly like

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=675&item=2992277614

David B.

March 12, 2004 prometheus

Thanks Nomad
am going to go through a pile of Infla stuff this weekend and decided to look for first and last days of rates as I can not afford all of the postcards.

March 12, 2004 nomad55

for PRO
I had the german inflationary period stuff rat-holed in a text file, as copied directly off the board.
Here:

10/1-1918 0.15Mk.
10/1-1919 0.20Mk.
5/6-1920 0.40Mk.
4/1-1921 0.60Mk.
1/1-1922 2.00Mk.
7/1-1922 3.00Mk.
10/1-1922 6.00Mk.
11/15-1922 12.00Mk.
12/15-1922 25.00Mk.
1/15-1923 50.00Mk.
3/1-1923 100.00Mk.
7/1-1923 300.00Mk.
8/1-1923 1000.00Mk.
8/24-1923 20000.00Mk.
9/1-1923 75000.00Mk.
9/20-1923 250000.00Mk.
10/1-1923 2000000.00Mk.
10/10-1923 5000000.00Mk.
10/20-1923 10000000.00Mk.
11/1-1923 100000000.00Mk.
11/5-1923 1000000000.00Mk.
11/12-1923 10000000000.00Mk.
11/20-1923 20000000000.00Mk.
11/26-1923 80000000000.00Mk.
12/1-1923 100000000000.00Mk.
/1-1924 0.10RenteMk. (=100000000000.00 old Mk.)
To further illustrate it was $1.00 = 4200000000000.00 Mk (11/26-1923).

The rate period beginning November 26 through November 30, 1923, stamps were valued at 4 times their face value for franking.

Rate Period # 22 - November 1, 1923 to November 4, 1923 was the shortest rate period in the Inflation era and the shortest rate period in German history. November 1 was a Thursday and a Holiday (All Saint's Day) and November 4 was a Sunday - leaving Friday and Saturday for the most commercial mail to have been processed. I have several covers from this period, but they are all dated November 3, 1923 (Saturday), such as this one which pays the 40 Million Mark rate for a local (Hagen to Hagen) letter. Note it is also re-used. Probably the most difficult period of all Inflation era to acquire.
Rate Period # 26 - November 26, 1923 to November 30, 1923 was the period where the stamps were sold for four times their face value and signaled the beginning of the end of the High Inflation era. New stamps in Rentenpfennig were issued for sale on December 1, 1923.
 

March 12, 2004 Richard Matta

David K
Re: your 1c blue washington - a couple weeks ago I posted a link on the RF board, pic is probably gone now, to a pair of 1c blues with green portraits, mint OG - some blue on reverse as well. Looked like some kind of essays. The consensus (with which I tend to agree) was that it was probably done by exposure to UV/sunlight.

March 12, 2004 Richard Matta

Stamp-me-honest
This guy may live up to his name, but he seems to have also been a poor judge of condition as well as poor at identifying stamps. Quite a few have a supplemental note indicating that the APS has informed him that his identifications were wrong. The APS missed a few as well. His #18 is a 24, 19 is missing a big chunk, 20 is probably a 22, 22 looks like a trimmed 24, 23 looks like a 22, etc. I love the #39 - 16 bids!

March 12, 2004 prometheus <prometheus@1internetdrive.com>

Varied responses and randomized thoughts Look for your name
Dave P - If you do Not mind losing the GUM on those stamps with the nasty brown hinge inclusion, I have a miracle solution that eliminates it DOES NOT seem to hurt Most Stamps of the world except certain issues of the US Prexies and then Not all just some become albino.
Wish I had taken scans of the album I am soaking now.
The results are almost amazing. 100% of the stamps had that almost clear amber hinge spot on them , Now gone. Email me your address and I'll send you a little to try. As I have no stamps with tape on them I have not tried it on those yet.

K.E. Think positive and follow doctors orders. And please let us all know what the Judges think of your stuff.

Sneeky Hope it's soon full steam ahead.

NOIP If you have NOT looked thru the archives here and saved a few thousands bits of information, wisdom and wit.
you are missing out on secrets unpublished anywhaere , I saved them hope you did.

Jim G another fine example you shared of why I like my stamsp after they have been "Licked and sticked"
when will the insanity stop, or I guess the better question is why am I Not selling off my MNH US ( there is an idea)

Request For Links
I know a lot of you folks are board shy
But any one with any informative Philatelic links that You use for comparison or info
Please Post them here before the board retires
I am always looking for New places to look at stamps on the web.

JADIP as it is such a beautiful day here in Tampa
we are going to go catch some rays, some babes ( three year olds are great bait for that ) and something for dinner.
Just another Day in Paradise here , I hope it's nice where you are. If Not think of me and Savannah enjoying the beach.

Roger H list of some razors I have around
Geneve 3 vii o7 exp lett
' " 10 ix 07
Luzern 17 iv 02 brf exp
St Gallen 9 ix 03 Brf Exp
" 30 iv 08
Luzern 22 viii 21 brf exp
and the trick question is the date in that Norwegian cancel I found you 18 vii 07

German Inflation Era Question Some time ago some one posted a listed ( a very good list ) of the Rates and dates they were in effect, Does anyone have this I lost a couple of disks of info
I guess someone thought they were music CD's when they stole them.
Wonder what kinda of looks of surprize they had when it was just info and scans of stamps.

March 12, 2004 10:08 Joy Tilton <joylark1@earthlink.net>

currently 1950-1940 No specialty yet
I've just checked the Board. Much nice activity is going on here today and yesterday with stamps,links, and discussion. I've enjoyed it! Good things to be learned. I'll check in each time to be counted. Blessings - Joy

March 12, 2004 Jim Whitford-Stark

Duncan
In some cases, such as if a person does not know they are being discussed (jim), their name will not appear on the board.
However, a search via control F, will still highlight the name.
Try a control F for jim.

March 12, 2004 9:51 Mel

Kans/Nebr.
Duncan

Thanks. I am also not a computer whiz, leave that to my kids. Learned something new about stamps and computers. It has been a good day. Have to go check my overprints. Thanks again. Mel

March 12, 2004 Duncan Doenitz

Mel - the hidden answer
Where Brian says "Answer in white ink" he has used HTML commands to change the color of the typeface to white (against the white background it is invisible).

If you touch that area with your cursor you will note that it senses something there. If you left click and hold, you can sweep your cursor over the area to highlight and reveal the answer.

Its almost as good as secret e-mail.

Dunc

March 12, 2004 9:27 Mel

Kans/Nebr.
Brian R.

OK, I give up. As a lurker and a newbie, I come to this board to learn and find out just this kind of information. My guess would be the #679 because it looks like the Nebr. is on top of the postmark. I must admit that I missed you hidden answer. Please fill me in. Thanks for your patience with a learner.

Mel

March 12, 2004 Darrell <mteton at aol dot com>

Razor cancel alert
I forget who likes these, but look at 2992531406.

March 12, 2004 Matt Liebson

For those Ohio lurkers among us, the Canton-McKinley club show is this weekend in Canton (see here for the data). Good food to be had, since this show is in a (new) church social hall. I have a table, so if anyone wants to dig around in some postal history and spend their money BEFORE the March Party, come on down. :)

March 12, 2004 06.23 Knud-Erik Andersen

March 12, 2004 Richard Warren

Aaah, sorry - my mistake. We've got our K's confused. Mr Kroo I know a bit about - I thought you meant Mr Khatchikian.

March 12, 2004 05:47 Jim Watson

Today in Postal History
As was pointed out elsewhere, today's cover was posted in Turkey, not China.

My, that coffee hits the spot!

March 12, 2004 Richard Reynolds <rick99@verizon.net>

New Board
Bill W.
Thanks for your kind words, and I'm glad we are discussing stamps, going over to the American Cancer Society website depresses me.
My heartfelt thanks for all the other people on here.

Onto different things
I Left a message on the new board this A.M. and it still said I was a guest, I registered 2 days ago but never recieved a password or anything. Help!!!!!!!!

Bossman53

March 12, 2004 04:22 Jim Watson

My second item is an express cover from Lebanon to Egypt in 1925. It has interesting advertising!

Anne,
Sorry to hear about your flu. Hope none of us get it!

March 12, 2004 Duncan Doenitz

Hello Knud - Erik

I receive e-mails from a Yahoo Early Germany stamp group, and there was a nice post made there recommending your auctions. It said:

"If cards and covers are your thing check out Knud-Erik Andersen listings on Ebay. It is not all Germany or early Germany but it is nice material. There might be something there for you."

link

Brian Duh! I overlooked your hidden answer earlier. Thanks. That information will get filed away for future reference.

Dunc

 

March 12, 2004 00.42 Knud-Erik Andersen

March 12, 2004 David Benson

Alan, I have no reason to doubt it.

David B.

March 12, 2004 Alan Payne

North Ingermanland
David B (or anyone else for that matter).
What do you think of this cover?
http://www.geocities.com/stamppna/27233.jpeg

March 12, 2004 Duncan Doenitz

Kansas - Nebraskas

Yeah Brian it was me that mentioned that there seemed to be too many K-N's available.

My guess is the #679 10c is bad. The letter spacings all look a little off, but especially the "r" looks too high, just the opposite from the 2c.

Dunc

March 11, 2004 Anne

Good night to all and to all sweet dreams of improved health of all board members, new boards emerging, and catching up on posts.

March 11, 2004 David Moser <stamphick@dospalos.org>

David

March 11, 2004 Brian R

At least I got the fancy white HTML right. I would have really felt bad if I'd have "white outed" the whole board. :o)

March 11, 2004 Brian R

Answer in white ink: The 10c is fake. Look for the tilted appearance of the "r", it is a telltale giveaway of these fakes.

March 11, 2004 Jim Griffith <griffith@dweeb.org> http://album.dweeb.org
 

Jim

March 11, 2004 Bill Weiss

VARIOUS
First of all, to RICHARD R., I do not know you, but do not need to know you to send you my heartfelt wishes. It hardly seems appropriate to want to talk stamps given your problem, so forgive me.

JIM G. You make a strong point about storing albums vertically, but the set of Zepps that suffered the transferred mount lines were in Showguards, in a black stock card, in a small stock book, in a safety deposit box. Could there have been some weight on them? Possibly. But I am not 100% convinced they are worth the gamble. They are your stamps, so bless you my son!
$30,000. was paid yesterday for I believe, a $2.00 mint/NH Colukmbian at the Siegel Sale. I am suprised that they don't post starting bids on their site, but if you think about it, starting bids CHANGE constantly right up to sale time, don't they? Given that fact, how does BENNETT, for example, come up with the starting bids for their online sales given the fact that they claim not to have any "reserves"? At least I see nothing in their terms about reserves. Logically, an auction house can only give you a "start" bid if A. They honestly have one or B. They have a reserve/start bid printed in the catalog. I therefore can't really fault Scott Trepel if he doesn't want to post ficticious start bids on his site. Further, to me, start bids are relatively meaningless, as a bidder should know pretty much exavtly how much he wants to bid going in, and how much a start bid is at should not influence him at all. The only logical reason would be if he has limited funds available and thus wants to eliminate from consideration any lots he is already topped on. On the other hand, since Siegel does note that any lot with a dot in front of it IS reserved, they should be willing to give out that reserve bid, but in my experience, they will not, which always has confused me - a reserved lot but the reserve is secret? Defies common sense. And remember - I LIKE Scott Trepel!

March 11, 2004 prometheus

Thanks Bob and Mike
Mike - yes since you pointed out the Rec'd usages with just dial a couple of months ago I have noticed them all over the place.
Do not always get them but on occassion .

 

March 11, 2004 Bob H.

Ok, Jim, I was working from incomplete data... And at least they do tell you what the prices realized are (which I think NY law makes them do.) Unlike another auction house I could name but won't...

March 11, 2004 Jim Griffith <griffith@dweeb.org> http://album.dweeb.org
 

Bob, no that column is 2004 SCV, not sale price. There's a separate Prices Realized page that lists what it actually went for.

Siegel's site kind of sucks, in that they don't tell you what the opening bid is, and you can't even bid online.

Jim

March 11, 2004 Mike E

Pro,
Re: Barnards
On the dial only, you sometimes see that on local or 'drop' mail. It was a 'workaround' from having to follow postal regs and postmark everything on departure and arrival, which made no sense if dropped off at the office where it was going to be delivered. Some rec'd markings are seen frequently that way.

March 11, 2004 Bob H.

Prom, would depend on what revenues were on it. 17 seems like a lot of different ones - would about cover all the kinds there were. Some documents are worth about $5 at best and some a lot more. Sorry I can't be of more help but you can look in Scott and see what the individual stamps catalog.

March 11, 2004 prometheus

Bob H a revenew ?
Saw a ledger type sheet thing from a Railroad in Civil War
some kinda of disburesment/draft type entries
It had 17 different 2 c Revs on it two were pairs still together
at 85 bucks is that too high
or is it for the railroad collector type.

March 11, 2004 David K.

Dave F. has relayed our deepest feelings for all concerned, thank you.

One of the most interesting 'finds' of my off and on sleuthing years with stamps has been this 1c blue,click here yet unheard of in the stamp world. The color is true and the reverse side shows blue fibers as well. It appears my interests are shifting again. So, I will post some surprises over the next few days and hope everyone enjoys them.

March 11, 2004 prometheus

Spring Break - Machine Cancels anyone
picked this out of a box today
Barnard-machine-cancels

is the bottom one where the killer was left off a normal usage
or just different

Interesting way to find out your grades
Harvard


R.Reynolds think positive my dad was told he had only a few months to live , get his affairs in order see those he needed to see
That was 6 years ago, he gave up a few parts here and there but still kicking the scooter over .

 

March 11, 2004 Bob H.

Now if that is not what it sold for, no way to tell from that page...

March 11, 2004 Bob H.

Jim, I looked again - the first 545 on that page, beautifully centered, shows a price of $400.....

March 11, 2004 Jim Griffith <griffith@dweeb.org> http://album.dweeb.org
 

Jim

March 11, 2004 Jim Griffith <griffith@dweeb.org> http://album.dweeb.org
 

Jim

March 11, 2004 01:44 CET Paul B

John G You've registered twice, the first user name is now deleted, try the second user name you registered.

March 11, 2004 john gordon <johnr@castlemoyle.com>

the alternate board -- help?
Paul B
I "joined" the other day and received the first email telling me to expect my password. I didn't receive it and had just dumped my spam filtered messages (only 9,800 in 10 days). I filled out the lost my password section and received the e-mail (which had been "caught" by the spam filter). Attempted to relog in with the new computer-generated password only to be told that "johnr" was not a username.

Paul, can you help me out?

John

p.s. I sort of know what you're going through having created an .asp generated passworded section of my wife's business web site a year or so ago. Isn't it fun?

 

March 11, 2004 Rich Wong

Showguard Mounts
I've had no problems with Showguards. Stamps I mounted in Showguards 40 years ago are perfect. My albums have always
been stored upright. In the U.S. (North Carolina, New York, New Jersey), I never had humidity problems. Now that I'm in Hong
Kong, I have to take extra care. The humidity, mold and mildew are problems here. I use closed shelf cabinets and
calcium chloride dehumidifying canisters.

I have seen stamps where someone was too enthusiastic in moistening the glue of the mount so saliva got into the slit and
ruined the stamp's gum. You see the dreaded line or a long blob of glazed gum.

March 11, 2004 Bob H.

Did you get your decimal in the wrong place, Jim?

March 11, 2004 Jim Griffith <griffith@dweeb.org> http://album.dweeb.org
 

Jim

March 11, 2004 Jim Griffith <griffith@dweeb.org> http://album.dweeb.org
 

Krispy Kreme
Just FYI, the typical original glazed Krispy Kreme has 10 grams of sugar, 12 grams of fat, and 200 calories.

Jim

March 11, 2004 Ken Lawrence

Richard W

The most recent letter I have from him is headed Alexander D. Kroo, Président du Grand Prix Internationale de la Philatélie Monte-Carlo, Ancien Président du Comité Executif de l'Association Internationale Editeurs de Catalogues de Timbres-Poste et des Publications Philatéliques. I assume "ancien" president means he's emeritus head of ASCAT. He also styles himself president of Club de Monte-Carlo de la Philatélie, with Figueiredo as vice president; they modestly describe their club as the "Association of the World's Philatelic Elite." Maybe he's the official tub-thumper for Prince Rainier.

When Stuart Morrissey (president of Scott Publishing Company) was still alive and Kroo was still actual (not ancien) president of ASCAT, K issued his order to obey the FIP-ASCAT-IFSDA-UPU ban. Stu promptly resigned from ASCAT and published an article describing K's involvement with certain bogus issues. K responded by rattling writs. Stu replied by describing the enormous succulent prawns served at the Monte Carlo receptions and wondered if these were sufficient to secure compliance by other catalog editors and publishers. It was marvelously entertaining while it lasted.

March 11, 2004 Duncan Doenitz

Sigh

Theres more than a touch of sadness here today, what with Knud-Erik's illness (good news on the examination of your display though K-E!) and Richard R's diagnosis also, and now the bombings in Spain. My sympathies to all involved.

Many years ago a rough tough character I knew well and worked with for years was unexpectedly deeply touched during an illness when he found out he was in the prayers of my very young daughter. Hopefully you sense the concern of your friends here in the same way.

Dunc

March 11, 2004 Jim Whitford-Stark

It also depends on how showgards are used Jim.
If you only moisten the top edge, stamps are easy to remove but stay firmly in the album.

March 11, 2004 12:53 Dave F. (moderator)

Madrid bombings
And, finally, our thoughts and prayers are with all of the board's readers in Spain and for those who have friends and family in Madrid.

I heard on the BBC that this is largest terrorist incident in the EU, so, for all our European participants, we're in solidarity with you on this.

March 11, 2004 12:50 Dave F. (moderator)

Sneeky: When you get back home and hopefully get to see this, please be assured that our warmest wishes and prayers for a speedy recovery are with you.

March 11, 2004 12:48 Dave F. (moderator)

March 11, 2004 Jim Griffith <griffith@dweeb.org> http://album.dweeb.org
 

Jim

March 11, 2004 Richard Matta

1c 1851
Here's a novel description: "Scott #8a" with large bottom "break". How about Scott #9 with large piece of bottom "missing"?

March 11, 2004 Richard W

Hmm. Seems about right. My guess would be that certain Afinsa or IGPC products might be deemed to fall foul of any sensible definition, so those particular interests will not be keen for any definition to be worked out. As for Mr K, well, he's pretty vulnerable right now on his own account, I think not to mention junior), without having to dig back too far. Poacher turned gamekeeper, but has just kept right on poaching! How "official" is his enforcer role?

March 11, 2004 nomad55

Paolo
I appreciate your comments on the rate for the Italian MC, which I have forwarded. My client wanted this item more for the "shock value" than as a piece of postal history.

March 11, 2004 Richard Reynolds <rick99@verizon.net>

Thanks
Thank you in advance for your prayers and good wishes.
Richard

March 11, 2004 Matt Liebson

Bob and Richard: thanks for the Ohio references.
 

March 11, 2004 Brian McInturff

Richard R. Sorry to hear of the cancer status. That's one of my biggest fears. I'll keep you in my prayers.

Dave F. I'd like to echo Paul's comments. This board has been absolutely great. You've done a great job and I hope if and when this board goes away you don't.

March 11, 2004 Richard Reynolds <rick99@verizon>

Ohio Covers
Jim
Thanks, just lost my best friend of 14 years yesterday, my dog, so it's not the best year I've had.

Matt in Ohio
There is some nice Ohio covers on Yahoo, thought you might like to know.

http://i9.ac.yahoo.com/users/1/9/8/5/repete1949-img403x600-10767991211938_a.jpg

March 11, 2004 04:52 Jim Watson

My second item is a domestic folded letter from Chile in 1859.

Richard,
So sorry to hear of your bad news. I do hope your luck is good. Hang in there and know that our thoughts are with you.

March 11, 2004 13:53 CET Paul B

At the same time, I think a it is due for some cudos. I have been very happy with Dave F taking the challenge of opening this board last year when we needed it. This board is the only stamp related board I am still frequenting on a very regular basis. The political, philosophical stamp issues do get tiresome, but I think we need to have them sometimes - perhaps just on a parallel board ;-)
Dave F. I think you've done a great job to our community, and it would sadden me if you are too fed up with us to stick around.

March 11, 2004 Richard Reynolds <rick99@verizon.net>

Mounts
The info about "Showguard" or any other split mounts is appreciated, I mounted my US Mint with these and my world collection on Hawid Clear mounts, which open at top. I like the Hawid's lots more than the closed type. But remember what happened to the owner of one of the Inverted Jenny's, when it flipped out of the album unnoticed and his maid vaccumed it up.

March 11, 2004 13:43 CET Paul B <philaweb at (remove) yahoo dot dk>

We must have a dialogue on this issue since that is one of the main reasons why Dave F has decided to quit boardhosting.

March 11, 2004 13:42 CET Paul B <philaweb at (remove) yahoo dot dk>

We must have a dialogue on this issue since that is one of the main reasons why Dave F has decided to quit boardhosting.

March 11, 2004 Richard Reynolds <rick99@verizon.net>

Exhibiting
Does anyone know of an exhibitor that is looking for a good quanity of Special Delivery and Airmail Special Delivery, from the 1920's to the 1950's. I was informed a few weeks ago that my percentage for survival from this Cancer is about 30% and I have quite a few of these covers and would like these covers to be sold "en mass" than just be sold on ebay after I am gone. Most of them are to the same family or to other parts of the country from these people. I bought several envelope boxes full of covers from an estate sale years ago, had nothing to do with collecting just a family saving correspondance. Covers ranged from 1815 to 1970's and had lots of SD's and Airmail SD's, also have lots of the 1938 Presidential series used on cover. Forgive me for this plug but I know most of you exhibit at one time or another, and this is a good oppertunity to pick up material.
Thanks
Richard

March 11, 2004 Dave P

Horror mounts
Bill W Add to your list a self-adhesive mount which was sold some years ago (don't know the brand, they had a greenish tinge). Found some nice mint European sets (good cat. even mounted) attached with these hinges - over time they reacted with the stamp gum giving a horrible brown stain which permeated right through to the front of the stamps - complete write-off.

March 11, 2004 12:48 am Bob in WA

Book alert

Matt in Ohio, I stumbled upon this and thought it might interest you. I assume there would be a lot of Ohio stuff in it.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2993431752&category=701

March 10, 2004 Chris

Drive By
Hi all, just a quick post on the run. There are a number of posts to me that I haven't answered.
I haven't forgotten them, just real life (that unpleasant stuff that keeps us away from stamps)
is intruding.

I did get 5 minutes to work on Austria tonight and I found a PR5 (1 kruezer newspaper tax stamp of 1877)
in a pile of stuff. Not an area I usually collect, but cool to find.

Chris - life is what happens when you are making other plans

March 10, 2004 David Benson

Bill, I know, that is why I couldn't believe the story when I 1st. heard it and then I saw some of the " bisects ". The appearance was perfect and presume that no one had tried bending of the items. I even tried out a few on some Silver Weddings before they were returned. Most of the material was sold in album or stock sheet lots but some were photographed in the catalogue and must have been handled at that time and in viewing but as far as I know there were no complaints until the material was returned.

David B.

March 10, 2004 Bill Weiss

Doping = Doing!
Duh!

March 10, 2004 Bill Weiss

Not Doing Their Job
DAVID B; The answer to why they didn't notice is simple - they weren't doping their job! No competent auction describer would fail to check at least the better values to be sure of their quality. There is simply no excuse for such lax work.

March 10, 2004 Steve Crippe <stamp at stevecrippe dot com> http://www.stevecrippe.com
 

Tagging
While we are 'on this' here is another item with overdone tagging

Tree Issue with Heavy Tagging

March 10, 2004 David Benson

Bill, not as bad as a collection that was sold by a Melbourne Auction about 10 years ago. It was broken up into 100's of lots and no one suspected anything was wrong with the material until some of the buyers slightly bent some items and they just snapped into two pieces. It was later found out that the material had been kept in an airtight vault for about 20 years. They had to refund all the payments that had been made for the sale, about $100,000. It was strange that when it was lotted none of the describers suspected that there was anything wrong with the paper.

David B.

March 10, 2004 Paolo Bagaglia

...and also thanks to David G. for showing his tagging error!

Rob F.
sorry I didn't reply earlier to your post of some weeks ago. I also hope all is fine with you and yours! Greetings!
Good continuation,

Paolo

March 10, 2004 Bill Weiss

90 Volume Collection
Last night I referred to the 90-volume Worldwide collection we picked up yesterday, and Anne quickly said she was drooling. Well now let me tell you a bit more about the collection and demonstrate how a very good collection can get really screwed up due to cheapness.

This collector, now deceased, put together a wonderful WW collection. For example, this morning I cataloged, among other things, a complete collection of Virgin Islands, all but one stamp unused/mint. So what's the problem? Well, to save money, this guy made his own mounts. How? Well, out of cellophane-like material which he wrapped around the stamp and a cut-to-shape piece of black paper as backing, then attached it to the album page with.....scotch tape.

The result of this is several problems. First, the stamps can not be easily examined, so to try to catalog the collection accurately where Scott premiums exist, for example, for never hinged items requires that I either slit the mount open to examine the stamp or simply forget about a possible premium. What to do? If I take the time to slit them, most early are hinged anyway, then the stamp does not easily stay in the now-slit mount! Problem two is that the scotch tape has, in many cases, dried up so badly that the entire mount can be easily flicked off the page. In some cases, the tape has permeated onto some of the stamps, thus effectively ruining them. All in all, the collection is a nightmare to work with.

I only tell this in the hopes that I can impress ANY reader of this board of one simple truth - DO NOT BE CHEAP when it comes to mounts. Any good collection deserves proper mounts. Now let me tell you which mounts totally SUCK;
1. The very old "Protective Mounts" which encased the stamp completely and had stickum on the back;
2. "Crystal" type mounts, made famous by H.E. Harris, they shrink over time and crimp the stamp, often ruining it beyond redemption;

I am also not a big fan of Showguard-type mounts which have a slit across the back when used on MINT/OG stamps because if exposed to any moisture in the air over time, that slit transfers onto the gum, sometimes causing the stamp to stick to the mount and at the very least leaving a fine line across the stamp's gum. This can be a very expensive lesson and how I learned originally was when my first Zepp. set kept in the Bank in Showguards, after being removed after 5-6 years there showed the lines across the gum, reducing the Zepp set in value by probably 1/3.

What's the best mounts? Just my opinion, but that would be HAWID or any other type of mount that has a solid front, solid back and open sides. That way no slit can transfer to the gum. Only problem with these is that with two open sides the stamps can easily fall out. But this can be countered by, for example, using a piece of acetate to cover the album page thus holding the mounts in place better.
This ends my mount-lesson and I hope I can save SOME reader from ruining an otherwise good collection.

March 10, 2004 Paolo Bagaglia

Mourning reply card and tagging
Nomad55,
Thanks for the relevant added information on that card.
Well, since July 1, 1940, 0.20 lire was the rate for visit card; printed matter went for 0.10 lire (according to info. I am taking from a new rate book of mine, I don't know how reliable it is for this period since, for example, mourning reply cards aren't contempled).

Duncan D. and Steve C.,
Thank you both very much for the added information on that postage stamp and for having linked a picture to that 8c. pair with undisturbed gum (thus almost annihilating probabilities of the occurrence of an extensive chemical treatment and reducing those of a superficial one... unless it's possible to alter taggant characteristics by physical means... I don't know about this) which shows an even darker tagging!!

I checked the two postage stamps with black light, as advised, and indeed the tagged area seems to correspond for dimesions with that ochre area.
From Dunc's hint on the other board I measured a block tagging of about 16.75 X 19.00 mm in average (not considering the rounded corners).
From Steve C.'s hint, I measured the paper thickness:
strangely the postage stamp with lighter tagging is slightly thicker than the other with "heavier tagging" (a difference, which is the only relevant to mention because of eventual scale error in my instrument which I may have not well calibrated, of about 0.01mm, having taken the measure on those parts not interested by the recess printing but covered by the tagging, of course).
Kind regards,
Paolo

March 10, 2004 alan berkun <abfdc@aol.com>

Million Dollar Stupidity
Years ago I was given a bag of original shredded treasury 10,000 dollar bills. Im going to piece them together tonite and go to K-Mart
and see if I have better luck///
What a BIMBO!!!

March 10, 2004 David G.

Tagging error
Nice 22c color shift error on a tagged pair; reversed. click here

March 10, 2004 Steve Crippe <stamp at stevecrippe dot com> http://www.stevecrippe.com
 

20C Flag
Flag with Heavy Tagging

March 10, 2004 Jim Whitford-Stark

Duncan, the perfect segue, old car (and volcano) on stamp.
To put it in context, more Fuji's on stamps.
And for a change more Sakurajima

March 10, 2004 Duncan Doenitz

Thanks Nomad55

Because of the part the Marshall Islands played in WWII, a lot of their (admittedly excessive) stamps depict WWII events, and I've had an interest in parachuting topicals for quite some time now. I've pretty much put that collection on hold but I did wonder about the validity of the items. The sheer amount of what I consider relatively worthless topical stamps have been a bit of a turn-off.

I do kinda like those that show the "original" version of bungee jumping, though, those natives that jump off towers with a rope around their ankles. Even nuttier than sport parachuting.

PS I like your nickname, I love old cars and have a '39 Chev 2 door sedan restored but original; most of them still running around here have been rodded.

Dunc

March 10, 2004 nomad55

Marshalls
Ken/Duncan.....when I spent my south Pacific sojourn in the Marshall Islands, their topical stamps were available at the PO. I mailed cards back using them (fish, antique cars) - unfortunately none to myself to keep as souvenirs. Still have a few mint copies.

March 10, 2004 Duncan Doenitz

Marshall Islands

Is that true of their stamps as well, Ken?

Are they valid for postage? I know their monetary system is based on the US dollar, but beyond that... well their web site didn't tell me anything.

Dunc

March 10, 2004 Ken Lawrence

Richard W

Your speculation is probably as good as any. In fact, if there really is a threat of litigation lurking, Mr. K might be squirming about what the evidence might show. He threatened to sue me once, and I continued to publish until he retracted the threat.

Do you recall the prosecution of CF? Although he wasn't convicted, many interesting aspects of his business practices became matters of public record. If similar practices occur elsewhere among legal stamp agents, the line between legal and illegal becomes so thin as to vanish, don't you think? Format Security International Printers issued the Leaders of the World series for actual countries, but in bankruptcy not only did they go for the tiniest fraction of face value, they were accompanied by mountains of "errors," "proofs," etc., which had not been ordered by the postal administrations on whose behalf they were supposedly issued.

Also, it has been reported that the ostensible issuing countries do not recognize them as postage. (Shades of the Marshall Islands, which passed a law that refuses to acknowledge its own coinage as legal tender. Thus buyers of the expensive commemorative silver proofs can't even spend them for face value if they visit the islands as tourists, but the stamp/coin agent peddles them everyplace else in the world as valuable limited-edition coins.)

March 10, 2004 Jim Whitford-Stark

Terry
Many thanks for the PVI's in todays mail.
Looks like more post offices are using the mailcode.
I especially liked the one from Puerto Rico with two different mail codes on it.
Jimbo2
Many thanks also for your care package.
Another Fuji I missed in my catalog.
Next edition I'll be more careful with non-volcanic countries that have Fuji stamps. At least I can console myself with the fact that Bertha missed it as well.
Having these stamp chatboards and eBay has sure been helpful.
I'll also spend time in library with Janes List for USS Vulcan.

Also discovered that I did have Michel with North Korea in it.
And yes, they did issue volcano stamps for Changbaishan except, of course, they use the Korean name of Paekdusan. Michel 940-943.

March 10, 2004 Richard Warren

Ken, I don't quite buy all your spin on the WADP story, but even so, to my mind the interesting question is - if that's the way the Great Foundation Panjandrum is now thinking - why? What's his agenda? I did outline my guesswork. Any comment specifically on that?

March 10, 2004 nomad55

Confederate fake
properly listed

March 10, 2004 Steve Crippe http://www.stevecrippe.com
 

20C Stamp
I have a very similar item, only on the 8c Flag. I believe that to be Excessive Taggant. My copy (I'll attempt to post scan later), is MINT, with full undisturbed OG. It is on so thick, the stamp actually feels like double paper. With this stamp, it is a little tougher, since it is used, but it is strikingly similar to the 8c Flag that I mentioned.

March 10, 2004 nomad55

Paolo
My client did some research as to the "why" that particular envelope would have been sent.
Here's what he emailed me a few days ago:
Bruno Mussolini died 7 August 1941 in the crash of an experimental 4 engine bomber near Pisa.

March 10, 2004 Duncan Doenitz

Paolo

About that odd 20c stamp...

I'd recommend looking at it under black light to see for sure if the colored area is indeed the tagged area.

Dunc

March 10, 2004 Paolo Bagaglia

Nomad55 -- I don't recall to have ever seen a postal object with those same features. I can't figure out the date cancel.
Anyhow, the date of Issue of the adhesive postage stamp puts a lower limit to the date of that mourning "thanking answer" pre-printed card, which is by 1929 on.
If that kind of mail was rated as printed matter (which I think would be logical, but I don't know) then we would have found another inferior limit which is by October 1, 1944 on (depending from where in Italy).
I am afraid that's about all I can say. If you or your client know more and better about it, I'd like to know.




 

March 10, 2004 Paolo Bagaglia

USA postage stamp question
Nomad55 -- Thank you very much for your opinion!

Sorry, I had missed that question of yours (I should have catched up before posting)! Will look at it immediately.
BRB

March 10, 2004 nomad55

Paolo
IMHO, this is a chemical modification of the luminescent tagging portion of the stamp. I don't think it has any value.

Other opinions?

Paolo...did you see my question from yesterday?

March 10, 2004 Paolo Bagaglia

USA postage stamp question

My uncle who collects USA stamps sends me a question regarding the ocher background on the 20c., the stamp at left in the following image:
here

Normal (which Scott #?), variety, or else?
I posted this same question also on Paul's new board.

 

March 10, 2004 Ken Lawrence

Illegals

The current issue of Scott Stamp Monthly has a lengthy feature explaining how difficult it has been for Scott's editors, with the world's best stamp and postal sources, to determine which issues of Afghanistan issued since 1989 are or are not legitimate. Scott and other major catalogs had listed some stamps that are now being delisted. For anyone versed in the debate we have held on this chatboard, it should be evident in reading the article that the resources of the UPU and WADP were useless in making the determination.

March 10, 2004 Jim Meverden

Old Glory Booklet
Jim Griffith,

I thought the booklets were sold out too, but I just got 10 from the USPS fulfillment center on Monday. They are still listed on the USPS website and I thought I would take a flyer and order some and lo and behold, they arrived a few days later.

March 10, 2004 04:31 Jim Watson

My second item is a registered cover from Niger Coast Protectorate to England in 1894. It has a complete set of the first stamps of the protectorate issued January 1, 1894.

March 10, 2004 11:47 CET Paul B <philaweb at (remove) yahoo dot dk>

$1.000.000 bills
Socalled souvenirbills. Search eBay and you'll find someone selling 10 or perhaps more for $1. They're perfectly legal to produce and sell - but don't show up in a bank or a shop with them. Can't believe someone actually did.
Someone would say: "Only in America!" Well, not being that stupid - but the legality of printing souvenirbills. As long as you don't even try to print the real ones.

March 10, 2004 David Benson

Dave, this is from APS August minutes,

The man at eBay with whom the APS is working will be at the Affiliates Luncheon and General Membership Meeting, and Lamb thinks he will be willing to answer questions.

Lamb has been very impressed with what eBay wants to do on this. There was a lot of skepticism in the beginning, which he shared. EBay has adopted a code of ethics, whose first draft was written by the APS and they are now looking to stop sales of forgeries on eBay entirely.

David B.

March 10, 2004 David Benson

Dave, had to make sure and knew it would easily be confirmed or not.

The question is not important of whether the legal authorities would be interested or not but would Ebay be interested or not. When someone lists an item they state that they are sure that the item is genuine and described properly.

This is pretty straightforward,

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Are you confident that the stamp you are listing is authentic? Are you aware that it is against eBay policy to sell fraudulent items?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
eBay reserves the right, in its sole discretion, to remove any stamp or stamp related item listed on its site if eBay believes that the listing of the item is inconsistent with the selling guidelines set out by the American Philatelic Society, or inconsistent with eBay's goals of promoting the hobby and maintaining a safe trading environment.

Where does that say anywhere that anyone has any legal right to force Ebay to list anything that is fraudulent. Ebay should just do what it says and zap any thing that is fraudulent such as reproductions or forgeries unless of course they are described properly and listed solely in a special category without any inference that they may be genuine.

David B.
 

March 10, 2004 Dave P

US Forgery
David B I thought the story would check out. Which brings me back to my original point. Given the US authorities lack of interest (or at least tardiness) in this case, what are the chances of them being interested in the odd US copy being sold on Ebay - whatever the letter of the law says.

March 10, 2004 Roger Heath

Lavar's card
The Clarens date stamp is the old Güller type canceler with fixed date slugs. The Baden date stamp is the newest style canceler with the rotating date wheels and spring loaded head built by Güller to deCoppet's patents. Voilá!!

Roger

March 09, 2004 Lavar Taylor

Postal History
Today's featured item of postal history focuses on the US, Germany and Switzerland. This cover was mailed from New York on Dec. 22, 1911 to Weisbaden, Germany. It is franked with a 2c Washington stamp, paying the 2c treaty rate to Germany. Once in Germany, the cover was forwarded to the Hotel Regis in Clarens, Switzerland. Because postage to Switzerland from the US was 5c, upon forwarding the cover was subject to postage due for the difference between the 2 rates. (Unlike the situation where a cover was initially underpaid, the rules did not call for charging twice the amount of the underpayment in this situation.) A 15c Swiss postage due stamp was added and canceled in Clarens, but the fee was not collected there. Instead, the cover was forwarded to Baden, Switz, where a second 15c due stamp was added and canceled. The reverse has transit markings from both Clarens and Baden.

March 09, 2004 David Benson

Lavar, giving it a chance out of a thousand, it hits a zero.

David B.

March 09, 2004 Lavar Taylor

Hong kong
Rob F and David B The "tall K" Hong Kong Jubilee stamp is almost certainly a fake overprint. There are too many things "wrong" with the overprint, look at how the "8's" differ from one another, among other things.

March 09, 2004 David Benson

Ken & Dave P,

reply from Max Stern,

Dear David,

The parcel is still sitting in my office awaiting written confirmation from Neil Holland a forensic expert who has already confirmed that these are forgeries.

We are now waiting for the US Postal Inspectors or the FBI to contact us.

Max Stern
 

March 09, 2004 David Benson

Rob, I am not satisfield that the Hong Kong Jubilee is OK,

check it against this,

http://www.sandafayre.com/gallery/stamp_371.htm

D2

March 09, 2004 Rob Faux

Duncan That's a really nice stamp. Who cares if it isn't a catalogue sub-number. :)

Sometimes I wish I collected unused stamps....

early German stamp

German semipostals

Hong Kong tall K overprint variety

Manchukuo double impression

thought i'd do a little show and tell....

Rob


 

March 09, 2004 Anne

Good night to all and to all sweet dreams of million dollar bills (non-Turkish currency), new chat boards, and Jake's swift recovery.

March 09, 2004 Bill Weiss

I AM ALIVE!
JUst a quick "hello" to everyone. I am terribly busy. Just got back from picking up a 90-volume worldwide collection, so won't have much time for chatboards for a while! I want to try to take time to learn more about the new chatboards, but right now I can't. I also must start our next auction in a week or ten days and once that job begins I stay out of commission for several more weeks!

March 09, 2004 Roger Heath

$1,000,000
If I were trying to pass a $1,000,000 note I'd at least be shopping at Tiffany's or Guccis. Walmart for heavens sake. Do you think Walmart will give a bonus to the clerk for not accepting the bill. I know Walmart is raking it in, but is tere really that much change in a cashiers till drawer?

Knud-Erik - Congratulations. I will be very interested in learing of the results and how different each group judges your exhibit. I like the idea, it can only teach judges subtlties missed by others. Whe does this happen?

Roger

March 09, 2004 Dunc

#537

Yeah, I noticed that a lot of the #537's have a pale tint, a sort of overall color, where this one (and a few others like it) have real dark areas in the flag and around the central figure. Its hard to tell just from looking at scans but I wonder sometimes if at some time a new engraving was made.

Dunc

March 09, 2004 Jim Griffith <griffith@dweeb.org> http://album.dweeb.org
 

Jim

March 09, 2004 Jim Griffith <griffith@dweeb.org> http://album.dweeb.org
 

Jim

March 09, 2004 Duncan Doenitz

Color variety

Hiya Jim!

You like color varieties, check this one out!

Not centered as well as you like, but at least it is Never Hinged. I'm not actually sure which variety of #537 it is.

Dunc

March 09, 2004 Jim Griffith <griffith@dweeb.org> http://album.dweeb.org
 

Jim

March 09, 2004 Anne

Too bad it wasn't a silver certificate.

March 09, 2004 Mauro Mowszowicz

1.000.000
Bill L
Geez! Only in America!

March 09, 2004 Bill Longley

Here is a little fake that got a woman into trouble. Gee lady, do you want the change in $50s or $100s. She probably bought it on ebay. "Rare, found in attic, photoroto $1million bill".

March 09, 2004 Ken Lawrence

David B

That was its original purpose, but Y&R (Young and Rubicam) are simply promoters, willing and able to gin up advertising campaigns for anyone who will pay the freight, reflecting any point of view. FIP took the proposal that USPS rejected, fiddled with Y&R's marketers to adapt the program to some other rich uncle, and shopped it around. I seriously doubt that any of the European postal administrations or UPU bought in, but UPU's cachet provide the desperately needed aura of legitimacy, for which they needed an issue. As configured in 1997, the scapegoat was to be "excessive issues," for which UPU obediently adopted a Code of Ethics for its members. But that was so thoroughly flouted by stamp agents for the majority of UPU members states, and treated with such contempt by the USPS (which circulated its official opposition to all other members) that it was allowed to wither away. Just in time, the FIP was rescued by producers of illegals, so the document was again massaged to reflect that new menace. As Richard Warren has observed, the flaw in this plan concerned its chief propagandist Mr. K, whose hands are not clean. No actual philatelist would allow any post office to define what is or is not a stamp, but that's what WADP did, so it could have an excuse to collect fees from postal administrations for entering new stamps by their definition to its website, a service that the UPU had provided free in the pages of Union Postale for generations. Shortly afterward, cataloguers and collectors observed that the WADP numbers bear scant connection to new issues as the hobby defines them, nor to legitimacy as the UPU code defines it. But it has served the required purpose. If, as Richard's rumor has it, that plan is being further soiled by the heir who styles himself as a foundation, who will be surprised?

March 09, 2004 Anne

David: Thanks. I checked the StampOffers board and surmised as much. Hope he's ok.

March 09, 2004 David Benson

Ken, you lost me, how does it involve selling new stamps to people outside of the US,

David B.

March 09, 2004 David Moser <stamphick@dospalos.org>

David

March 09, 2004 Ken Lawrence

Richard W

WADP (World Association for the Development of Philately, Knud-Erik) was conceived in New York, not in Europe, and I was present at its birth. Somewhere in my file is the original bootleg copy of the pitch. Nary a line concerned stamp collecting, just an expensive marketing program to sell new stamps to people outside the U.S. I was pleasantly surprised that USPS refused to buy it. Until then, I had thought they were suckers for their ad agency. Imagine my dismay when I learned, at San Francisco in 1997, that WADP had not been stillborn, but had been nurtured in an incubator somewhere until the robust child was adopted by the FIP (Féderation Internationale de Philatélié), ASCAT (Association of Stamp Catalog Publishers), IFSDA (International Federation of Stamp Dealer Associations, and their junior lackey IAJP (International Association of Philatelic Journalists).

Nothing that the Foundation Himself decides would surprise me, and when he does, that will be the next FIP party line.

March 09, 2004 Anne

What's going on with Sneeky? Did I miss something?

March 09, 2004 David Benson

KL, your right I do not read as many magazines as I did in the past since the internet can give me more info than magazines.

Like I said, no one is holding a gun to any dealers head and forcing them to participate, some know that extra sales will be generated by selling better class material to international visitors. It is a commercial venture and they have to way the costs. No one is forcing any Exhibition to have involvement with the FIP, it is the Exhibition Committee's decision and they would know that because of the extra costs involved then they would know that may have an impact on booth sales. Some of the extra cost is because of the larger exhibition area needed for the displays and that also has a large impact on booth costings.

David B.



 

March 09, 2004 Ken Lawrence

David B

What's killing international exhibitions is exactly what you say. Organizers cut costs wherever they can, but the FIP mandate is rigid, so they then up the dealer fees (and frame fees). This causes many dealers to opt out, so they ratchet them higher to make up the difference in a deadly cycle. For you to dismiss this problem as simply dealers' whim is pretty absurd. Dealers are not the cause of the decline; they are the victims. FIP is the cause. Non-FIP exhibitions don't have this problem.

Ken Lake is the most consistent anti-FIP writer in the British stamp magazines, but he is not the only one. More nuanced and effective criticism was voiced frequently by Ricky Richardson, if I recall his name correctly. The late Edgar Lewy, writing under the pseudonym Strand, had much tougher words for FIP than I ever did, and used to send me words of encouragement whenever I mounted my soapbox in the days when I edited the Philatelic Communicator. Even the venerable Otto Hornung has written columns in the past year that are closer to my position than to yours. Do you ever read what others write, or do you simply assume that the world agrees with you?

March 09, 2004 john9913 <john.goyette@sympatico.ca>

SNEEKY
CCMouse can you check Sneeky's email.

March 09, 2004 brian totten <tottenhome@aol.com>

a speedy recovery
Jake: just stopped by to wish you a speedy recovery!KING TOTT

March 09, 2004 David Benson

Richard, comments regarding dealers costs at bourses should be ignored. They know the commercial aspect of having a stand and ancillary expenses and if too dear then they can opt out of having a stand.

David B.

March 09, 2004 David Benson

Ken, I never said that the story was fabricated, what I said was,

There are a few things in the story about an Australian dealer buying a large quantity of a US MS. that ring alarm bells that the story is a fabrication.

If you read it carefully I said that it rings alarm bells, I have sent an email to MS for confirmation,

David B.

March 09, 2004 23:20 CET Paul B

*inbetween brackets - I*m just kidding*

March 09, 2004 Richard W

For a kind of Euro line, try Peter Jennings, sycophant-in-chief to the Monaco crowd. Loves ASCAT (but ADORES Rainier even more), never mentions FIP ...

March 09, 2004 23:11 CET Paul B

nomad55 Your profile is gone...

March 09, 2004 Ken Lawrence

David B

The story that you say was fabricated is by your favorite U.S. stamp writer Les Winick, who published it several years ago in both Linn's and Philatelic Exporter. As I recall, it was Les's friend Max Stern who told him the story.

March 09, 2004 nomad55

Paul B
I think its better for you to just wipe everything out, and let me start from square one.

March 09, 2004 RW

http://www.internationalhero.co.uk/
 

March 09, 2004 David Benson

Richard W., have you noticed any anti FIP comments in any British Philatelic magazines,

David B.

March 09, 2004 Richard W

(Among the many superheroes on this site, I particularly like "Captain Euro" (go to "rest of world" and scroll down to "Europe") whose role is to defend the values of the European Union. Including the FIP, perhaps?)

March 09, 2004 22:46 CET Paul B

Duncan D You can wear anything - as long as you don't wear me out. ;-) Alrighty then, I'll redirect all troublemakers in your direction. ;-)

March 09, 2004 Richard Warren

Forgot to say that I did pick up a rumour that the Foundation is now fighting shy of any attempt to actually define an illegal. Which (if true) would seem odd, given all the recent fuss and speechifying you refer to. Unless someone somewhere is worried that any viable definition would catch certain stamp issues dear to their heart that they would rather were not caught? In which case, all this frantic climbing on the bandwagon might be seen as a covert attempt to steer the bandwagon off course, and for somewhat selfish reasons too? Or, to change the mixed metaphors, someone has just realised that their own interest might inevitably be coming into the line of fire, and has got cold feet? What do you think?

March 09, 2004 Duncan Doenitz

Hello Paul, nice job on the site!

Yeah, count me in. Can I wear a cape?

Dunc

March 09, 2004 22:31 CET Paul B

nomad55 Ah... Now I understand. A minor spelling error, I see. :-) If I'm correct please let me know, then I'll delete your user profile and you can register again with the same handle.

March 09, 2004 22:13 CET Paul B

New prototype board
Duncan Doenitz Quote: "Yes of course a board dedicated to investigating fraud has to have high visibility, the exposure is a key element in the process." Sounds like an inauguration speach to me from a person that volunteers to head the legal department of a new and improved StampChat board. Quite an offer, eh? Want to join the team?

March 09, 2004 RW

sorry about the italics ...
.

March 09, 2004 Richard Warren

Ken - thanks for the line on the WADP. I see where you're coming from. But even if the initial degree of folly was what you suggest, and I'm not totally convinced, I'd still see a useful role for WADP. This may seem like a cheap shot, but are you sure that this is not simply bog-standard Transatlantic distrust of "old world" international organisations? Your viewpoints could be seen to echo the instinctive unilateralism of the current administration. For FIP/UPU/WADP, read UN? Not that I'm accusing you of being a closet Republican ... Not picking a fight here - your reply to Chris regarding exhibitions was wonderfully written and I wouldn't quarrel with a single word of it.

March 09, 2004 22:09 CET Paul B

nomad55 You can change the e-mail address via the My Profile feature. Just fill in the e-mail address you want to be the new e-mail address and press submit. The e-mail address you submit when registering or when altering your profile informations, is also the e-mail people are sending an e-mail to when pressing the "send e-mail to" button (don't want that address to be a bouncer, eh?).

March 09, 2004 22:04 CET Paul B <philaweb at (remove) yahoo dot dk>

New Prototype Board
Ed B Don't be concerned. I have not suggested a hidden board could be restricted for eUSC members. I have used the eUSC as an example for the use of a hidden board. I do see a difference between those two things. Since I am not a member of the eUSC, I do not have any interests in whether eUSC has a hidden board or not. In future posts I will refrain from mentioning the eUSC.

March 09, 2004 David Benson

Knud, we have had something similar here but not annually,

David B.

March 09, 2004 14.38 Knud-Erik Andersen

March 09, 2004 Jim Whitford-Stark

Thank you Colin.

Congratulations K-E

March 09, 2004 14.31 Knud-Erik Andersen

March 09, 2004 Colin Judd

Colin

March 09, 2004 11.53 am Colin Judd http://mysite.freeserve.com/xzephyr_GB_Machins/
 

Colin

March 09, 2004 11.37 a.m. John Gordon <johnr@castlemoyle.com>

Honk King 2004
Richard Warren
Linn's stamp news has an article this week on Famout Topicals being ejected from Hong Kong 2004. A link is hopefully here.

They've also got a letter to the editor regarding postal use and stamp issuance by some of the Trucial States.

John

p.s. I for one am interested in Ken L's posting on the FIP. While the topic may not be of "importance" to me right now, I've almost never found it a negative to read and hear about all aspects of our hobby. That's one of the reasons I'm driving for two hours to the Moses Lake Stamp Day on April 2. Many of the topics are way above my head, today. Besides (and most importantly, I'll get together with Bob in WA for our annual luncheon. (grin)

John

March 09, 2004 David Benson

Dave P. email sent, even though he is about 80 I know he plays tennis every morning and should get the message if he goes to work later today,

David B.

March 09, 2004 David Benson

Dave, that is the only person that it could have been but I know that he has an arrangement with overseas Post Offices to supply and pay later. I know him fairly well and will send him a private note and see what he says. It may take some time for a reply.

David B.

March 09, 2004 Dave P

US Forgery
David B Although I understand your misgivings, I think the story is true. I deliberately didn't name the dealer on this site, although no-one is accusing hime of wrong doing - in fact I believe he may be the one who has lost money, and he certainly hasn't denied the story (initials are M S if that gives you a clue). I believe the reason he bought them is that, using his trade contacts, he had pre-sold them to the USA - he may well not even have examined them.

March 09, 2004 David Benson

There are a few things in the story about an Australian dealer buying a large quantity of a US MS. that ring alarm bells that the story is a fabrication. Firstly there is only one wholesale dealer here who would be buying that sort of quantity of any item and there is no way that he would be buying quantity of US new issue as there is virtually no market for them here. If he did buy any it would have been limited quantities bought through normal sources.

David B.
 

March 09, 2004 Mark Bardell

1fr Struble
Hi Roger, many thanks for the reply.

Not my stamp I'm afraid, I just wanted to make sure that it wasn't a blatant forgery before I listed it. I'll probably start it at 24.99 and let Ebay do it's thing.

Thanks again for the assistance.
Mark.

March 09, 2004 Anne

Hidden boards for EUSC members: Not a good idea in my opinion. There was some discussion a few days ago on the ebay board about revising the EUSC constitution so that officers should meet privately(?) at another board to discuss club matters. That might be a reason to limit a board to EUSC members only, but it should only be for that limited purpose. We may not even need that. Otherwise, I think that the main board should be open to the general world.

March 09, 2004 nomad55

For Paolo
Have you ever seen one of these?
My client asked me to buy it for him.

March 09, 2004 Duncan Doenitz

"Lucky Lindy"

Jim Watson, the Lindbergh cover is quite interesting. Charles Lindbergh performed as a wing walker and exhibition parachute jumper, and also made four emergency parachute jumps in his career. Two of those jumps involved mail planes and that's where he earned the "Lucky Lindy" nickname. A Google search will of course bring up a wealth of information, but a brief summary can be found here. I collect parachute topicals and made a parachute jump myself (but didn't carry any mail on the trip!)

No enforcement re: $36,000 in forged US stamps...

As Dave P points out clearly, there are times when action should be taken and nothing gets done. The problem is essentially a lack of accountability. Some bureaucrat decides it is too much work to cross a few hurdles to prosecute a forger, and the case dies. Interested observers have no clue where the ball stopped rolling. Sounds a lot like eBay, right?

An example, from personal experience, of people not doing their jobs... I was the only witness at an accident. Sitting at a stop light, I watched as a worker "riding the ball" to keep a trailer with a mismatched hitch connected to a pickup truck was pinned between the truck and trailer. His legs were hopelessly crushed.

It was a construction accident, the trailer was a heavy tanker filled with water and borrowed from another construction company, so there had to be some serious liability issues. But no one contacted me until nearly a year later to get an account of what happened, and then it was on the eve of the trial, and it amounted to a three minute telephone conversation with the caller trying to get me to distort the facts.

You can bet that all the parties involved were led down a path that indicated to them that every avenue was being pursued, and I regret to this day that I never sought out those involved to let them know how poorly they were being represented. No accountability, see? No client asking his lawyer "why did you wait a year to investigate the facts? What if the witness became unavailable? Who's going to know how fast the vehicle was moving, and what was said after the accident by the participants?"

A visible board

Yes of course a board dedicated to investigating fraud has to have high visibility, the exposure is a key element in the process. And registration in order to post, that's no big deal. (Its just like revealing the bureaucrats who don't do their jobs, once again its all about accountability.)

Some day I'd love to tell you a story about exposing one of the current Bad Boys of eBay, but the story can't be told yet. Well, maybe by secret email.

Dunc

A man applies for a new bank account. The receptionist announces loudly, "Mister Smith, here's another no account customer to see you!"

March 09, 2004 Roger Heath

1Fr Struble
Mark -
It looks good. The threads are always horizontal and embedded in the paper at varying depths. sometimes on the surface, sometimes deep enough to make ID difficult on some green threads. This 1 Fr stamp was printed using one of the ealiest synthetic dyes, "Mauveine" which originally looked violet-grey. The dye is not light fast and is sensitve to water. In most cases the "bluer" the stamp the more exposure it's had to the elements.

There is a note in my reference that forgeries exist. These were prepared to cheat the collector. Crude typographed, no embossing and painted thread (most likely black). The most dangerous fakes are the thin paper varieties that have been "shaved" or rubbed thin.

If you own it keep it. If you don't own it - pass. Typically one can get a nice colored grey-violet copy on Ebay for $100, the faded go for $40 and down.

Roger

March 09, 2004 nomad55

Paul B
I registered for your board, but if you email me back, the response probably will be bumped as being non deliverable. Do you want an alternate email address?

March 09, 2004 10:00 a.m. Frojan, J.J. <jjforjan@hotmail.com>

STUDENT
Dear Gentelman: I study U.S.A. & Venezuelan philatelic material, and I have locate a page in which they¨re a few roulette perforations draws, unfortunatelly the perce en scie it doesn´t appears same as the percé en points, perce en petit semi-circles, and perce en croix, etc. Would like to know if You could help solving this slight difficulty. Thank You very much for Your attention.
Sincerely Yours(live in Barcelona, Spain) Frojan, J.J.

March 09, 2004 Ed.B

There are a number of people myself included, who have stated that they would not be happy with the club moving from it's present location. Ed

March 09, 2004 Guillaume van Turnhout

Brian R and Bob in WA: Thank you so much for your kind comments (I am still blushing). And I am really glad you find the story as interesting as I do.

March 09, 2004 Mark

Corrected links...
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March 09, 2004 8:43 Mark Bardell

Switzerland sitting helvetia
Malolo - Roger

Hi Roger, I was wondering if you ( or anyone else for that matter ), could give me any indications as to whether this is genuine. It's been identified as 1855-57 1fr ( Scott 31 ) with yellow thread. I'm not sure if the thread is running the right way as I've never seen one of these before.

Thanks in advance.
Mark.

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March 09, 2004 17:31 CET Paul B <philaweb at (remove) yahoo dot dk>

Thanks for your kind words Mike E.
 

March 09, 2004 Mike E

Paul B (or whoever)
I haven't been keeping up on the board the last week or so, but I am curious what are people thoughts at having to register, even to just view. Seems it then becomes more of a 'club' than a public board. Most of us are quite busy during the day and I drop in on this board and Frajola's several times a day for a very quick read and catch up. I don't have to (and don't want to) register or log into either of them. I understand that registering may help prevent anonymous and the occasional obnoxious post, but it may also deter 'lurkers' and other occasional viewers and posters from taking part. Just my pre-caffiene thoughts of the day.. (Paul, all in good faith. Glad you are taking the time to continue this board..)

March 09, 2004 Ken Lawrence

Chris

By your same logic the Art Institute of Chicago might metamorphose into a pawnshop next year, but I predict with confidence that it won’t.

The reason that French Impressionist paintings and philatelic items are not beanie babies and baubles is because they have been reified over the past century and a half into durable repositories of national and international memory, like fine art painting and sculpture in those respects. Reification – the philosophical explanation of how abstractions become real – is the essence of economics and culture. [Presumably Hegelians use the term reify because the verb realize has already been taken for a different meaning.]

Over time, by way of considerable intellectual investment reflected in a vast, continually expanding literature (much more than in the exhibition culture you disdain), what began as small pieces of printed paper became reified as tokens universally recognized as postage, and equally, as collectible artifacts based on any number of unique traits.

Thus Richard Warren’s peacocks are revealing remnants of wartime Burma for him and mere birds and feathers to a topical collector, but in both instances the esthetic elements to today’s owners, projected among the philatelic community at large, are the factors that imbue them with value, both monetary and metaphysical.

Inside the philatelic realm fashions may come and go along the track you propose, but the edifice itself is solid. To appreciate this difference, study issues of The Philatelic West from 100 years ago. This was the popular voice not only of stamp collecting, but also of several other hobbies ranging from button and bird egg collecting to trading arrowheads, which failed the reification test (or, in the case of arrowheads, got absorbed by a larger and more academic intellectual discipline).

The reality of the abstraction has so outstripped the original pedestrian purpose that postal administrations today issue stamps for all the reasons I recorded in my earlier post, which that have no postal connection but which nevertheless fulfill important cultural duties. My ongoing debate with Richard Warren expresses our disagreements over whether the blood-stirring issue of illegals threatens to unreify (disreify, is new coinage needed here?) legal stamps.

Culture is by definition the parts of your life of which you are oblivious, and which registers consciously only in contrast to other cultures. It’s no mystery that you and most other collectors care nothing for exhibitions, but even in your and their ignorance or absence they are as important to philately as gravity is to life on earth. In that regard, the FIP’s decisions affect us all.
 

March 09, 2004 13:39 CET Paul B <philaweb at (remove) yahoo dot dk>

New prototype board
Answers to posts about the new prototype board (in reverse order).
Bob in WA Thank you! Looking forward to your visit.
Brian M Thank you!
Brian R Thank you! Yes, the left side area has a space for ones picture (optional). Regarding the poll. The poll question is: "Are you in favor of boards visible only to registered members?". I've written a short explanational post to this on the prototype board. Basically, I would like people to consider the option of having a default board where all visitors land when they enter the domain. This default board would be visible to all, like the StampChat prototype board is now (here). Then, we should consider whether registered members only should be allowed to post, or whether guest vistors should be allowed to post as well.
A second board, The HiddenBoard, is also available at the prototype board (here). If you're not a registered member, or if you are but have not logged in, you will not see this board. The HiddenBoard needs another approval by Admin for registered members to see.
The reason why I have created two different kinds of boards is to show the possibility of operating with different boards. The HiddenBoard could be restricted to eUSC members (to give an example) or some other defined group of members. That way we could have discussions not "suitable" to the public eye.
Concerning hosting the new board. My offer is to take care of all technical, administrative concerns. We (me and a couple of other people willing to pull this through - still pending!) need to have a dialogue on how we would like to do things.
Anne Good points!
Chris Good points too!
Joy Many thanks for your contribution! Your post is duly noted. I haven't got that much to add just now.
Jim W Good points and down to the core (as usual).
Colin J Thanks for your input as well.
Dave P Good points as well!
Alan P Thanks!
Roger H Glad you found the CSS bug on eBay! :-) Many german vendors actually use their own styling of pages (CSS files).
David M Thanks for your input as well.

Well, that was the quick list of thank you's. I'll be back later since I hope the brainstorm on this topic is ongoing and the final discussion on what to do is on it's way. Looking forward as well to see what the other team of developers has created.
If we decide to utilize the prototype board I've created for the new and improved version of StampChat - then, and only then I will come back to you kind folks and ask for assistance in moderating and financing (yes) the board.

March 09, 2004 Brian R

The rest of us collect postal history, you're now actively involved in creating it!

March 09, 2004 03:34 Jim Watson

My second item is an airmail first flight cover from Mexico to the United States in 1929. The pilot was none other than Charles Lindbergh.
 

March 09, 2004 Dave P

USPS
The law may state one thing, don't hold your breath waiting for something to be done though. Some of you may know the following story. An Australian dealer purchased 20,000 of the USA 1989 Airmail miniature sheet from a non-philatelic source, Scot C126, face value $1.80, total face $36,000.00. He innocently resold them to a US dealer who found them to be forgeries. The likely source was Latvia. The Australian dealer gave full reimbursement and the US Postal Inspection Service and officials of the USPS were notified. After three months of no apparent interest they were returned to the Australian dealer, who had them sitting in a carton in his office wondering what to do with them. On the basis of this I don't think the USPS are likely to be interested in the odd reproduction (whether cancelled or not) on Ebay.

March 09, 2004 Richard Reynolds <rick99@verizon.net>

Fraudulant Sellers
How about postmarks? You say, OK
If you still have any questions after reading any of this, go to the website located at the bottom of this note and do a search with the word (Postage) it lays out just about any type of fraud that's done with new or used stamps, covers, or postage meter.

* United States Code
o TITLE 18 - CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE
+ PART I - CRIMES
# CHAPTER 25 - COUNTERFEITING AND FORGERY

U.S. Code as of: 01/22/02
Section 503. Postmarking stamps

Whoever forges or counterfeits any postmarking stamp, or
impression thereof with intent to make it appear that such
impression is a genuine postmark, or makes or knowingly uses or
sells, or possesses with intent to use or sell, any forged or
counterfeited postmarking stamp, die, plate, or engraving, or such
impression thereof, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned
not more than five years, or both.
All these laws and more are located at this Website:
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/casecode/uscodes/18/parts/i/chapters/25/sections/section_503.html


 

March 09, 2004 Richard Reynolds <rick99@verizon.net>

Fraudulant Sellers
I have often observed in this chat room lots of remarks about what might be done to sellers of fake material, here is what can be done in the extreme. Call or email your closest Secret Service, as you all know of the Federal Law (U.S. Code : Title 18 : Section 501) which states, and I quote: Section 501. Postage stamps, postage meter stamps, and postal cards

Whoever forges or counterfeits any postage stamp, postage meter
stamp, or any stamp printed upon any stamped envelope, or postal
card, or any die, plate, or engraving thereof; or
Whoever makes or prints, or knowingly uses or sells, or possesses
with intent to use or sell, any such forged or counterfeited
postage stamp, postage meter stamp, stamped envelope, postal card,
die, plate, or engraving; or
Whoever makes, or knowingly uses or sells, or possesses with
intent to use or sell, any paper bearing the watermark of any
stamped envelope, or postal card, or any fraudulent imitation
thereof; or
Whoever makes or prints, or authorizes to be made or printed, any
postage stamp, postage meter stamp, stamped envelope, or postal
card, of the kind authorized and provided by the Post Office
Department or by the Postal Service, without the special authority
and direction of the Department or Postal Service; or
Whoever after such postage stamp, postage meter stamp, stamped
envelope, or postal card has been printed, with intent to defraud,
delivers the same to any person not authorized by an instrument in
writing, duly executed under the hand of the Postmaster General and
the seal of the Post Office Department or the Postal Service, to
receive it -
Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five
years, or both.

Section 502. Postage and revenue stamps of foreign governments

Whoever forges, or counterfeits, or knowingly utters or uses any
forged or counterfeit postage stamp or revenue stamp of any foreign
government, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more
than five years, or both.




 

March 09, 2004 quarter to 2, am Bob in WA

Interesting story in the local (Seattle) news about a gal named Faith who got into powerlifting. She did a squat of 198 lbs, pressed 120, and lifted 240. Not bad, huh? Oh, by the way, she's 61 years old. Also, by the way, she is a justice on the Washington State Supreme Court! Talk about a bench press!
 

March 09, 2004 almost midnite Bob in WA

You say a topical collection loses deeper connectivity, but if the collector "slows down" and delves deeper into a specialized aspect (as I might for the Chinese Junks, for example) they are no longer being true to the topical muse, but reverting to traditional philately. I would be interested in the same aspects that might concern the China specialist who decided to further specialize in this series: printings, rates, usages, overprints, errors, proofs, EKUs, unusual destinations, etc, etc. The only difference would be he may have gravitated to it from being a general accumulator of Chinese stamps, while I came to it because of the bridge in the design. Ultimately we might envision identical exhibits with identical material, but if the rest of his collection is other China while mine is other bridges, somehow he is more the true philatelist? I don't buy that. The "patient detective work" you would expend on Burmese peacock overprints I will just as eagerly do with the overprints on the first airmails of Honduras, issued in quantities of 500 or less, to learn to distinguish the scarce genuine from the relatively plentiful fakes. Also, by the way, I am just beginning to learn of some bridges important to postal routes and markings, such as the Menai Bridge, and especially Pont de Beauvoisin in SE France, a transit mark on many stampless covers from France and England to Italy, Sardinia, and other points east, with interesting changes in form over a few decades. Even so, on seeing "Penguins on Parade", my first impulse would be not to pass by too quickly, but at least take time to see if they managed to snag a certain 1933 5 shilling Falkland Islands stamp, and if so, is it a nicely centered copy? Call me shameless, but I probably wouldn't even miss the rest of the set!

March 08, 2004 Guillaume

Plugging, continued...
I am not very good at marketing, here is the link:
http://non-tibi-spiro.blogspot.com/

March 08, 2004 Guillaume

Shameless plugging
Glad to see this place is still up and running.
Just dropped by to plug a story on my weblog about modern postal history, the KGB and a Soviet children's program gone awry. Please feel free to have a look and leave comments.

March 08, 2004 Roger Heath

The Future
Anne -
There may be a few, but I think we were lucky enough to have experienced an era of extreme creativity in music. It is possible to play some of the late 60's early 70's stuff in a lcassroom and hold the attention of kids,a dn what I've noticed especially are the GT kids. They obviously have a broader experience at home, but they seem to know the best when they hear it. We (not you, excuse me) are old grey hired rockers. I remember in the early 50's my Dad's favorite music was big band and jazz from the late 30's. The music was from a period when he could afford to go out on Saturday nights (this was in England). music doesn't seem to have existed earlier in his life than 18-20 years old. Kids today are being indoctrinated with comercialism that the 1960's rejected. I'll wait to see when the next rejection period arrives.

Roger

March 08, 2004 Anne

March 08, 2004 Roger Heath

Collecting - The High Road
I don't consider stamp or postal history collecting even close to beanie baby collecting, or any other manufactured collectables. I compare philately much closer to history of art and art collecting. The original pieces were painted (created) for a purpose, whether decorative or practical, these pieces were judged during there own time and either found to be either outstanding examples or mediocre. Through time additional study and criteria have been expended and the cream invariably floats to the top. Demand is expressed in prices paid at auction. What's new ?
Many collectables today fail to pass any aesthetic scrutiny. It is obvious through history the best creative works are recognized in many cultures, classic stamps have that cachet and can't compared to beanie babies. The problem with most modern stamps is the marketeers ousted the artists for control of the creative process, and we are stuck (ha!) with the result that most modern stuff is unattractive to new collectors. Long enough for them to stay with the hobby as opposed to "I bought some stamps so I must be a collector." I think it is highly unlikely that the fakes and the illegitimates we've been discussing recently will be collected in 50 years as they'll be recognized as nothing more than crass attempts to cheat the public, and that is nothing new, isn't unique to philately.

Large exhibitions are the highest level of collecting, and if you haven't seen any international exhibits you need to place it on your list of things to do. If you like imitation Miro prints on your wall and think you have art, you won't appreciate the National Gallery in London, teh British Museum, the Louvre, the Museum of Modern Art, etc, etc.. One must see the best to have a concept of what the best is all about.

Roger

March 08, 2004 Duncan Doenitz

Identification of those five unknowns...

Wow, that is impressive! Thanks to Anne and Mauro, the last of the five unknown Philatelic Objects has been identified, and quickly too! I've visited a couple online sites meant to aid in identification of such items, and the success rate is nothing like what the readers here can accomplish.

Dunc

March 08, 2004 Anne

Jim: The comment wasn't aimed at you. It was more a comment on the level to which the conversation sometimes descends. We're all guilty of that.

March 08, 2004 Chris

The Value of High Level Exhibitions
Ken L Here is the part of your argument that I find unlikely.

"My point to Nomad was precisely that FIP matters to all those escapist collectors as well, despite their lack of awareness or interest. Because without the highest levels of the hobby, the floor for the rest would be flea market remainders, with nothing beyond that for inspiration and aspiration."

If people don't know about something, how does it give them something
to aim at? This sounds dangerously like a metaphysical argument that
exhibitions tap into the Jungian collective unconciousness or something. Are stamps some sort of Platonic ur form that pervades
all time and space?

I'm also not convinced that stamp collecting is different than buying beany babies at a flea market.
Collecting fashions come and go. The tulip connoisseurs of the Tulip
Mania in the 1630's could undoubtedly have talked about the subtle qualitys of the
tulips that they paid for with a house, but the marketplace did not
continue to share their insight. Today I can get first class tulip
bulbs for a dollar or two each. The only value these
pieces of paper that we collect have is that people believe they are valuable and hence ascribe value to them.

In one of Christopher Anvil's Centran stories, he has the viewpoint
characters watch an ad for "Garazanol's Green Drops" with testimonials
from the cognosenti about the subtle visual effects they cause. The ad is
intended to ridicule advertising and the creation of demand. He
could just as easily have chosen collecting objects with ascribed
value as his target.

Chris - all value is be transitory
 

March 08, 2004 Lavar Taylor

Speaking of which, I heard a rumor that H&R Block is outsourcing some of its return preparation work to India. Also, there is a big push in the present administration to hand over some tax collection to private contractors. Somehow, the idea of having "Biff" collecting taxes makes me uneasy. [For those of you who do not recognize the reference to Biff, he was the guy who sat next to you in college who weighed 300 pounds (or kilos) but was not smart enough to play football.]

March 08, 2004 Jim Whitford-Stark

Compete is the wrong word.
I constructed my web site because I wanted it to be educational.
I also enjoy doing it.
I don't give a damn if it wins any awards.
Though my ego tells me otherwise.
But, then again, we are all subject to human frailties.

March 08, 2004 David Benson

Ken, sorry, I was mistaken on that one. I presumed that more expenses were paid than that.
Some of your other comments are out of date and it only the current situation that should be considered. The current Executive of the FIP are much more conscious of expenses and excesses of the past are a thing of the past.
I don't want to go on as the only person replying to every comment as I have other things to do and as you mentioned the other day there is an APS Chat site it may be best to continue the discussion there instead of here which was set up to discuss problems with Ebay and not the FIP.

David B.


David B.

March 08, 2004 Jim Whitford-Stark

Ken L
To me, the critique is like water off a duck's back.
Though, if I'd have gotten one, I might have taken it seriously.
I know what is wrong with my site from a philatic perspective.
I know what is right about my site from a geologic perspective.
The main problem with the competition, as it stood (in my opinion), was comparing commercially constructed sites for postal agencies and well-endowed individuals, with those of personally-made individuals.
I have no problem with people like Richard F constructing displays of stamps for their clients.
I just do not feel that they should be treated in the same manner as a display constructed by the owner of the material.
Yes, commercially constructed sites look better, especially when someone is paid to work on them full-time for a week or more.
When you only get 3 hours on a Sunday morning to scan, upload and write incisive comments it is difficult to compete.
If you did comment on my site and can find the comments, I'd appreciate them.
Volcanoes on stamps

March 08, 2004 Ken Lawrence

David B

Not so. Judging national exhibitions is a privilege, not an entitlement. If you disbelieve me, ask Ray Todd, who has been on several national juries here. National exhibitions in the United States are required to provide each jury member a $250 honorarium ($350 if more than 300 frames) and two tickets to the awards event (usually a banquet). The honorarium does not cover the costs of travel, hotel, meals, and incidental expenses.

Similarly, international exhibitions under the auspices of continental federations defray, but often do not entirely pay for, the expenses of commissioners and jurors, and in instances where they do pay all or nearly all of those expenses, they often require the jurors to double as commissioners, or else let the home federation pay for an additional representative.

 

March 08, 2004 Jim Whitford-Stark

Sorry Anne, I'll tone down my last comment.
When I had a pleasant conversation with Francis Kiddle, he intimated that a majority of the judges had yet to forward their critiques.

March 08, 2004 Ken Lawrence

Jim W-S

I believe you wou were misinformed. To my knowledge, all of us on the jury provided our assigned critiques to Francis Kiddle. At that time I was the United States member of the FIP Literature Commission. At present, Michael Dixon holds that appointment. Both of us were on the jury. I believe he was teamed with Toke Norby of Denmark. I was teamed with Charles Verge of Canada. Francis chaired the jury. Charlie Peterson was the jury consultant. If you'll tell me which website was your entry, I'll see if it was one of ours. If so, I'll provide the critique if I can retrieve it from my old computer.

The reason given to the Literature Commission for suspending the website competition was to review the criteria. Internet technology had advanced so rapidly that many of the original evaluation points had been rendered obsolete and needed to be updated, tested, circulated to the Commission members for adoption, reported to an FIP congress, and published in Flash. But now that I'm no longer on the Commission, I can't say how much if any progress has been made.

I feel a bit sheepish defending FIP this way, but actually I felt that the website competition was one of our most useful, forward looking programs.

You are correct on the basic point, and David B is wrong. Ken Rowe's criticism of FIP came from Canada, not from the U.S., although the American Philatelist reprinted his article with permission. Philatelic Exporter in the UK, which David B has read and linked here, has published critical editorials that express similar opinions to mine. When John Hotchner and I were running for APS President in 1997 (he won, obviously), we met with the then president of the BDPh, the German federation, who expressed similar concerns. Perhaps, the US, Canada, UK, and Germany are less important to international philately than Australia, but if so, add one more complaint to my list.

All the facts and figures I've quoted have been provided by the FIP. Most have been published in Flash, the official journal. Some are found also in the latest edition of the GREX.

March 08, 2004 Anne

Esoteric discussions of organizations: Yeah, they can drag on, but they do provide insight into the politics at the upper levels of hobby. My only objection is the tone in which they're sometimes conducted.

March 08, 2004 Duncan Doenitz

Bill D
Duh!! I've got a link to the old Forbin's already in my Favorites and Is I forgot it was there. I haven't gone there to look yet, but thanks for the reminder ad the help!

Dunc

"Ken - I alternate. Some days I am politically incorrect, and other days I am politically incoherent. This is one of those days."

(No, thats not a quote from Yogi Berra.)

March 08, 2004 David Benson

Steve, even if it was a National, then the Exhibition would still have to shell out all the expenses of the US Judges.

David B.

March 08, 2004 David Benson

Jim, I agree 100% with you on that one and you should contact the US Literature delegate for an answer. Why they went ahead and organised it is beyond me but when they realised that they did not have the manpower for it, they gave it up. Apart from Francis I have no idea who else was involved.

David B.

March 08, 2004 David Benson

Steve, most of the additional costs the FIP is charging the exhibition is expended and doesn't go into the FIP coffers. You should be asking the Exhibition why they wanted FIP endorsement as they would have known that would entail certain requirements. You can mention it where you like but the only correct answers you will receive will be from the organising committee of the Exhibition,

David B.

March 08, 2004 Jim Whitford-Stark

David B
Though I live in America, I'm not an American and what you write is not strictly true.
I was very annoyed with FIP for their lack of critiques for the 2002 web site competition.
When I confronted Francis Kiddle he stated that none of the judges handed in their critiques.
Presumably because they did not get all the perks of being an international judge, they didn't want to do the work.
Even if not true, that's the way it looks.
No travel, no hotel, no meals, no critique.
The failure of FIP to continue the competition in 2003 speaks volumes to the same subject.

March 08, 2004 Bill Dempwolf

Bill

March 08, 2004 Brian R

knud-erik
I understand your dilemna well.
I'm an American, whose supposed to be concerned about these things.
In fact, I understand very little of it,
and doubt I'd care much at all if I did.
This is why I hope that StampChat II,
will revert to allowing full fledged scammer hunts.
It's obviously still needed,
the scammers certainly deserve it,
AND as an added a bonus,
It'll help keep the regulars from feeding on each other. :o(

March 08, 2004 Steve Crippe http://www.stevecrippe.com
 

David,

You are missing the point. If as a booth holder, I am 'underwriting' the FIP to the tune of +50% of the booth fee [$2500 in my case], I have the right to comment where I please. Why shouldn't an issue such as this be transparent?

Without me and the likes of me, there would be no Free summer trips to the USA, would there?

March 08, 2004 David Benson

Brian, where have I bashed the APF (lately).

It would be interesting to know who the comments that KL refers to were written by.

Like I said it is no use commenting here one sided without someone from the opposing side to comment. I can't speak for the FIP, I am not on any of their committees.

I haven't seen any FIP negative comments in any magazine apart from US, that seems to infer that the whole philatelic world is happy with what they do except the US.

Have you had a look at some of the non US listings, do you want me to send you some listings of fakes as it is a waste of time sending them to Ebay,

David B.

March 08, 2004 Jim Whitford-Stark

Am I just paranoid or what?
An eBay seller who has two feedbacks from March has neither listed in his totals for the last week, month, year. One of which is a negative.
He changes his eBay name today and promptly lists a book starting at £500.

March 08, 2004 Brian McInturff

Dave B You have no way of knowing if the fakes have decreased or not. Ebay won't release that info. So, for all we know the quantity may have decreased 100 fold.
Now for the comments directed toward Ken about the FIP. Seems it's ok to bash the APS and how people feel they should conduct their business. Face it gentleman, when someone starts talking about other organizations you can't handle it. I for one have enjoyed the comments. Maybe you(if the shoe fits wear it)should quit bashing the APS and some of it's representatives. Facts are facts, Ken constantly resites what has been published, learn to deal with it. I've said my peace. And I still have no hard feelings toward anyone.

March 08, 2004 David Benson

Knud, exactly correct, only a couple of people who frequent this board have any knowledge of the workings of the FIP and biased comments repeated ad hoc is boring,

Ken, COULD YOU OR SOMEONE AT THE APF CONTACT DAN NEARY AND TELL HIM TO GET HIS FINGER OUT AND ADD SOME MORE MEMBERS TO THE NON US STAMP WATCH GROUP, the quantity of fakes hasn't decreased,

David B.

March 08, 2004 Dunc

Cheap Shot, sorry

You're right of course Ken, I apologize. Us trolls sometimes just can't resist. Instead, I should've noted that you've taken a considerable amount of time to post some very insightful information. I've seen some of this FIP discussion somewhere else, must've been in Linns, and you are not alone in your statements.

Mauro Thanks, perhaps I can send scans directly to you, OK? Thanks also of course to Jim W-S and Richard for the identifications.

Dunc

March 08, 2004 15.17 Knud-Erik Andersen

March 08, 2004 Brian McInturff

Thanks Dunc but since Addy is loitering around here he's probably already made a batch. Thanks for offering though.

March 08, 2004 David Benson

Ken, you should invite one of the US delegates, they would know more from a US perspective,

David Benson

March 08, 2004 Ken Lawrence

David B

Invite whomever you wish, from any country. This is an international forum, which is why you're here. I'm free to speak my mind because I have no official involvement in Washington 2006. Others have to observe diplomatic protocol in public, though some of this will be on the agenda whenever proposals are presented to the APS Board for the next international exhibition after Washington 2006. Those are the reasons why I quoted extensively from Ken Rowe's critique. He spoke as the leader of Canada's federation, and as its FIP representative. He tried valiantly to solve the problem, and failing to get action, canceled CAPEX. If no one in FIP would answer him, why would they now appear here to answer me?

I have held this discussion with Knud Mohr, and have presented his answers as he presented them to APS. If another FIP representative agrees to meet with us, I'll report that as well. Right now you're the only one who seems upset with the discussion. But no matter how many official FIP documents I cite, you insist there's a different set of facts that you cannot present. In that case, please find someone who can. If there are other facts, I'd be curious why FIP hasn't sent them to me, considering that they regularly send exhaustive reports on every conceivable subject.

March 08, 2004 00:12 CET Paul B <philaweb at (remove) yahoo dot dk>

A&S First day at work after 2 weeks of vacation. I will respond tomorrow to the many posts about the new prototype board. Many thanks for the interest shown.

March 08, 2004 Ken Lawrence

Richard W

WADP began as a proposal by Young and Rubicam (a giant ad agency, not a collector organization, no colectors involved in the program) to promote "philately" (meaning to increase sales of new issue stamps for the largest postal administrations). The USPS rejection letter makes wonderful reading when you want to brighten a dull day. After Y&R failed to sell this multimillion-dollar boondoggle to USPS, they took it to the UPU, which referred them to FIP, IFSDA, and ASCAT. That unholy group saw an opportunity to promote itself as the arbiters of philatelic correctness, and required all members to adhere to the WADP dicta. As I reported here months ago, I resigned from IAJP the instant it pledged allegiance at Pacific 97.

Not surprisingly, each of the main actors in this drama wanted the others to pay Y&R, so that part eventually went by the boards. Now WADP has appropriated for itself the right to say what is and what is not a postage stamp. The U.S. philatelic press has uniformly made sport of this, pointing out all the real stamps that WADP fails to acknowledge, and which ASCAT therefore condemns as forbidden to list in its members' catalogs.

There's more, but you get the idea.

March 08, 2004 David Benson

Ken, how about inviting one of the current US delegates to the FIP, they would have a less impartial view than yours and may impart some other details,

David Benson

March 08, 2004 Ken Lawrence

Steve C

Thanks for the compliment. I'm not sure why people are using the talk radio analogy. There's no name-calling here, and no know-nothing posturing. To the contrary, this is a good discussion about a serious problem facing stamp collecting worldwide.

In the original proposal that the APS Board approved at Orlando in 1996, your booth would have cost $5,000 for an eleven-day exhibition. That was on the assumption that the Postal Service would pay the FIP's costs. Oddly, even at that meeting the USPS representatives in the room said they would not, but the Washington 2006 organizers were confident they could eventually land the $700,000 subsidy. When reality finally could not be denied, cost-cutting and rent-raising became the order of the day. Besides paying more, you may not get much opportunity to sell stamps to jury members, because the rules forbid them to shop until the jury is dismissed (violators are fined), but judging 3,000-plus frames may take the whole week.

March 08, 2004 David Benson

KL. because the FIP isn't defending thmselves against some of your accusations. I can't speak for the FIP. If you want a discussion about it contact the executive and ask them to provide a spokesman.
99% of collectors worldwide couldn't care less about the FIP and most probably only a handful here have any knowledge about them and most of that is derived from your comments. If you want to debate it, do it the APF meetings, not here.

I wish you would spend more time trying to convince Dan Neary at Ebay that there are still major problems instead of bashing the FIP. At least that would interest most of the people here,

David B.
 

March 08, 2004 Ken Lawrence

David B

The bigest difference between us on this issue is that you want to exclude ordinary members from discussing the hobby's future, and limit the discussion to insiders. Here in America we believe that everyone is entitled to be informed and to participate. More than a decade ago we had a huge debate in APS, most vocally promoted by Janet Klug, Tom Current, and myself, that forced the APS Board of Directors to open its meetings to everyone precisely for that reason. I was elected to the Board in 1991 on that platform, when Board meetings were still closed and proceedings were secret.

So here we are today, holding an informative discussion on problems of international philately, and all you can say is we should shut out the unwashed masses? Surely you have something more constructive than that to contribute.

March 08, 2004 Mauro Mowszowicz

Duncan D
#3 - Italian revenue, surtax on legal documents
#5 - Argentinian Revenue from the Santa Fe province, probably for cattle but im not sure until you can post a decent sized scan =)
Also i think that i can ID #1 if a better scan is provided
Regards!
Mauro

March 08, 2004 Ken Lawrence

Richard W

If it wasn't a taunt, I apologize. Perhaps my memory conflated different episodes of our dialogue. In any event, if anyone is misdescribing material, I want the problem corrected or the offenders disciplined.

March 08, 2004 Jim Whitford-Stark

#2 is French receipt revenue.

March 08, 2004 David Benson

Steve, it is the not the place to discuss it, if you have a complaint about costs, complain to the people who sent you the bill. KL'figures are incorrect as some of the costs he mentioned would have to have been paid to others instead of the FIP. The Judges would have still been invited and the Exhibition would still have had to pay their expenses. The Commissioners would have to been either recompensed by the Exhibition or by their associations. This would cut the 15% extra charge that you may have to pay to about 8-10%. There are comments that the economy is faltering, I can't see it, it is perfectly OK here and thriving. The additional customers that some dealers would have would easily make up for the additional costs the dealers additional booth charges.

David B.

March 08, 2004 Richard W

4 = Russian revenue. You mean the FIP SWAT team?

March 08, 2004 Dunc

Grenade, not granade, I hate typos.

I wonder how long now it will be before we see the first illegitimate stamps from the newly created nation of Granade?

Dunc

March 08, 2004 Duncan D

Stamps??

So Brian should I run off a few copies for you? Imperforate though of course.

Dunc

March 08, 2004 Brian McInturff

Dunc Humor time. I think those are stamps, but I'm not sure any more.

March 08, 2004 Brian R

???
Obviously, this whole FIP issue is a heated one. Even the normally placid are taking sides. In standard self interest mode, I have to ask the question, how does any of this effect me? I'm just the little guy who shows up with a big sack of pennies I've hoarded (aka-the stamp budget), and the hope of seeing some neat exhibits. I could care less, if the philatelic upper crust is killing the golden goose, with stretch limos and expense budgets. Even if this governing body folds tommorow, or not, I'll still be looking for a place to trade those pennies for something more two dimensional. I trust that even in a hobby in decline, a captialist with a stockbook, will come eagerly to my aid. :o)

March 08, 2004 Duncan Doenitz

Talk Radio

I can't wait for FIP to show up, kick down the door, roll in a hand granade, and come in firing.

Welcome to our little version of Talk Radio, Ken. Your membership card should arrive within the next 30-45 days.

Another subject

I've got a few cheap Unidentified Philatelic Objects of no big consequence, nothing to expend any serious effort over. However, just in case someone knows off the top of their head what these items are, here's a scan...

First five

Thanks.

Dunc

March 08, 2004 Steve Crippe <stamp at stevecrippe dot com> http://www.stevecrippe.com
 

FIP
David Benson,

I wasn't 'complaining' about booth costs. I was stating facts.

I asked a question and Ken answered it. Ken has given me NO Reason to doubt his veracity, not even once, in the ten years or so that I have known him

So, tell me. Why shouldn't I believe what he says about the FIP?

Oh, but this is "not the place for that discussion"

Right.........

March 08, 2004 Richard W

Ken - I understand your objections to the various participants and their agendas, but (briefly) what's your beef, in principle, with the WADP? Is it not a sensible idea to have an international forum where representatives of the different stakeholders in philately can share concerns and aim for consensus? I don't wish to debate this with you, but I just wondered. Is there something, from your point of view, fundamentally mistaken about WADP, or is it that it is just the sum of its parts?

March 08, 2004 RW

PS - not "self-proclaimed" either - on APS dealer membership list online.

March 08, 2004 Richard W

"Taunt"? I just pointed it out, that's all. Said APS member was selling identified illegals, but describing them as postage stamps. The ones I've spotted were actually produced by someone else, though said member also sells elsewhere similar illegals created by self. This person is the subject of my approach to Helen Bruno, but this is now complicated by the circumstance that he hasn't yet renewed his 2004 APS membership. I'm still waiting to hear from Ms B about when that membership will be judged to have ended if there's no renewal. No point in starting out on the process if that's soon. Though if it's remote, I shall. This was not anyone in APS doing an Addie.

March 08, 2004 David Benson

Addie, talking about squeletons in your closet, have you asked the APF to purchase all of those handstamps you used to ruin genuine stamps & covers. They might be willing to take them off your hands.

David B.

 

March 08, 2004 David Benson

Addie, sorry, no squeletons in my closet, I buried all of those,

David B.

March 08, 2004 atdinvest

message to Benson
MrBenson.- You are making a serious accusation,becarful.I might be able to show to the media some squeletons that you have in your closet.atdinvest

March 08, 2004 Anne

Methinks Addie is looking for a certain book to add to his reference library. Perhaps he has a new hobby.

March 08, 2004 David Benson

Ken, can't answer that, that is up to the board of the FIP to work out how they can cut down costs. Of course it would be cheaper if less Jury were invited and more local participation but that would lessen the expertise of the jury. I have to agree, extremely difficult problem to solve but this is the not the forum for discussion. It is your delegates to the FIP that should be raising these points at FIP meetings.

David B.

March 08, 2004 Ken Lawrence

Jim W-S

Perhaps you are correct, but my recollection was that Richard W had taunted me with an allegation that a self-proclaimed APS member was selling his own creations as stamps.

March 08, 2004 Ken Lawrence

David B

I have included as FIP-mandated costs the budgeted amounts for FIP patronage, jury, and commissioners. For Washington 2006, the total equals more than 15 percent of the total budget. Those expenses plus the Expert Group cost are the ones that are susceptible to the reforms proposed by Kenneth Rowe, with consequent savings. Despite your evident distress over airing these simple irrefutable facts, Ken Rowe is no radical soapboxer, and he presented his analysis before any of the events that evoked anti-FIP passions had occurred. He is a pillar of the philatelic establishment and a soft-spoken gentleman who tried heroically to forestall the current crisis at a time when it could have been done with very small disruption of the customary routines. Proof is easy to see because all these costs are substatially lower, in accord with Ken's recommendations, at international stamp exhibitions conducted under auspices of the continental federations rather than the FIP. So the argument that costs would be similar without the FIP burden are demonstrably false.

Rather then enduring another round of your defensiveness on FIP's behalf, I'd enjoy reading the solution you might propose to this accelerating problem. If Ken Rowe's proposal isn't your answer, what is?

March 08, 2004 David Benson

Addie, you never answered my question, got something to hide,

I don't have a fixation against you, only the philatelic criminal acts you are doing,

David B.

March 08, 2004 atdinvest

Message for DBenson
Benson ,please give me a brake,stop your harassment,do something productive with your life,enjoy your family,you have a fixetion with me.Juan Sr.(atdinvest)

March 08, 2004 David Benson

Ken, Have you included the Commissioners costs in your figures.

David B.

March 08, 2004 David Benson

Addie,

I have proof that the scans you use with the word REPRO on the reverse do not exist when some of your buyers receive the material. There could be a few reasons for it, special ink that disappears after a few days or possibly that it is just a computer add on to trick Ebay and the Stamp Watch Group that it exists at all,

David B.

March 08, 2004 Roger Heath

Midvale Repair
Midvale -
Here's a link.

Roger

 

March 08, 2004 David Benson

Steve Crippe, your comment shows that you completely believe all the negative comments written by a few biased Anti-FIP commentators . No one knows how much your stand would have cost without the FIP or even if there would have been an Exhibition. You should ask the committee of the Exhibition why they charged that amount. All the amount goes to them and zero to the FIP. Ask them why they wanted it to be FIP. They made the choice and knew that it would incur extra costs but they would also be many positive attributes as well. Many more international visitors with more money to spend which may increase your sales as well. KL state 17% extra but who knows,

This is not the place to comment on the FIP particularly with the bias of many Americans against it which is caused by them reading and listening to a few vocal Anti FIP protaganists. If you have a complaint about your stand fees, complain to the Exhibition,

David B.

 

March 08, 2004 Jim Whitford-Stark

Ken L
I may be wrong, but I don't think anyone has ever accused an admitted APS member as fabricating "stamps". Possibly some have resold "stamps" fabricated by non APS members.

March 08, 2004 Ken Lawrence

Sam Bates

No, you cannot be a member of APS if you print your own designs and sell them as stamps. If you know of any member doing that, you should file a complaint. Much has been posted here making that allegation, but as yet not a single complaint has been filed, and I have not yet seen any credible evidence that any APS member is doing such a thing.

March 08, 2004 Brian R

The things you learn on StampChat......
For instance, I never knew that Sperati had a color copier, and a stock of A4 paper.

March 08, 2004 Steve Crippe <stamp at stevecrippe dot com>

W2006
Brian M,

Thanks. And that is JUST the booth. And it is not the BMW of booths. More like a Buick. Decent location in the middle of the floor. Had to pass on the 'Super Booth' up front at $39,000!

My show expenses will be at least $12K+, once you figure in Advertising, Travel, Hotel/Meals, etc.

So, yes, I'll be glad to see you at the show!!!

Steve

 

March 08, 2004 atdinvest

need information
Mr.Bates.- I can't be trown or expelled from the APS,because I never was a member.Yes I produced my own design made from the originals,the same technique that was used by Sperati.Juan Sr.

March 08, 2004 Brian McInturff

Steve C. Seems like a lot of coin for a one dealer booth. All I can say is I hope you do well. Takes a lot of sells just to recoup other expenses and the booth fee is just astonomical. I'll be by as a spectator so hopefully you'll have a few items I can take off your hands to help:)

March 08, 2004 Sam Bates

You can get thrown out of the APS for "restoring" stamps but not for printing your own designs and selling as stamps?????

March 08, 2004 Steve Crippe <stamp at stevecrippe dot com> http://www.stevecrippe.com
 

FIP
Ken,

Thanks. I appreciate your prompt answer.

I'll just hope for a good show and figure 'greasing' the FIP is just another cost of doing business.

Steve

March 08, 2004 Ken Lawrence

Steve C

It's difficult to calculate because, as David B says, some of the expenses would be there with or without FIP. Over all, the FIP-mandated expenses run in the neighborhood of half a million dollars. If FIP had trimmed its demands along the lines Ken Rowe proposed in 1995, we could probably cut that figure in half. Booth rental income for Washington 2006 is projected at $1,462,000 according to Michael Dixon's Powerpoint presentation to the APS Board at Norfolk. Let's guess that all $250,000 in estimated savings from FIP reform could be rebated in lower booth fees. In that case your savings would be about 17 percent of the current charge. But things are not that simple. The truth is, even with fees at the current level, not enough booths have been taken to assure breaking even if the show could cut a quarter million in FIP-mandated overhead. Naturally, the organizers are counting on more dealers signing up between now and show time, but if the stamp economy worsens, they might actually lose dealers rather than gain them. In that case, the FIP burden might have the same effect as it had for Pacific 97.

Let me stress that the Washington 2006 organizers have done a superb job of budgeting, given all the pressures they bear to run an exhibition that will make us all proud. The difficulty is that they were able to make cuts in everything except what FIP requires, but FIP rigidly adheres to unrealistic rules adopted during flush times and unsuited to today's austerity.

March 08, 2004 atdinvest

need information
Mr.Lawrence.- Sorry, is Midvale Philatelic Gallery.Juan sr.

March 08, 2004 atdinvest

need information
Mr.Lawrence.-
Sorry but I never said I was a member of the APS or any other philatelic organization,you probably are mistaken with other person.But if you can tell me where (Midway philatelic Gallery)they are located and how to contact them,I am writing an article and need some info.Thank you for any help you could give me.Juan Sr.

March 08, 2004 Ken Lawrence

atdinvest

Do I recall you once claimed to be an APS member? If you are, why would you be interested in the services of Midvale Philatelic Gallery, whose owners were expelled from APS in 1997 for violating the APS Code of Ethics? Their only business is altering stamps (gumming, perforating, repairing).

March 08, 2004 Steve Crippe <stamp at stevecrippe dot com>

FIP
Ken L

Can you estimate the percentage of my W2006 booth fee of $7,500, that is feeding the FIP money pit?

Steve

March 08, 2004 atdinvest

need information
Hi everyone,I need your help. There is anyone that could supply information of how to locate the Midvale Philatellic Gallery,they are in the US or overseas?Any help is very well appreciate it.Juan Sr.

March 08, 2004 05:24 Jim Watson

My second item is an airmail cover from Kenya and Uganda to Germany in 1938. Its analysis led to some interesting facts about the Tanganjika, a German merchant vessel.

March 08, 2004 04:38 PST Paul Barsdell

Paul

March 08, 2004 13:37 CET Paul B <philaweb at (remove) yahoo dot dk> http://www.lettonica.info/StampChat
 

New prototype chat board
Good Morning, Day, Afternoon, Evening!
Here is a link to a short introduction on the new prototype chat board I have created.

March 08, 2004 Ken Lawrence

Exhibits

Chris, if you don't care to see exhibits, that's your loss. In my opinion, the only way to uplift my/your own collecting appreciation is to collect vicariously, absorbing whatever one can from viewing and studying better collections, learning from them, and setting new goals based on that education. But I freely concede that intellectual challenges are not for everyone, and that for many among us, the purpose of a hobby is to escape all that. My point to Nomad was precisely that FIP matters to all those escapist collectors as well, despite their lack of awareness or interest. Because without the highest levels of the hobby, the floor for the rest would be flea market remainders, with nothing beyond that for inspiration and aspiration.

David B is mistaken in many of his replies to me. The issue is not whether most FIP participants are sincere and dedicated, it's whether their system will survive this decade. To argue that it's ok to fail in Europe and the Americas because Asian postal administrations are still paying FIP's bills is the ostrich view with a vengeance. As I have demonstrated, Asia really is not paying the bills.

Not a single FIP outreach gimmick has worked. Not one. With the sole exception of China, there is no growth, unless you want to believe that FIP's formerly despised Sand Dunes are now its saviors.

It did not and does not have to be this way. In 1995, Ken Rowe put forward a thoughtful proposal for reform, at a time when it could have been implemented with a minimum of disruption. He was rudely spurned. So Canada dropped out as a host, setting the entire North American cycle adrift. The next year, Pacific 97 went under financially, wiping out all the accumulated treasure of the entire postwar half century in the world's most important country for philately. European top-drawer exhibiting has slowed to a trickle, and Asia is on the ropes, judging by the Bangkok disaster and the INDEPEX postponement.

But because so many FIP representatives continue to carry on as though nothing has changed, they are hastening the day of ultimate collapse. That's the problem in a nutshell.

It's also the reason they have become such shrill hawkers of the WADP. That's literally all they have left to promote.

David B is right about the outside economic factors, but those points support my program, not his. Those changes require FIP attention and change, not business as usual, and certainly not abdication of leadership to Afinsa.

March 08, 2004 Brian McInturff <philatelist@earthlink.net>

Knud-Erik I change it awhile back

March 08, 2004 John Forsyth

US 1861 Mavens

This is a 70,70a,70b,70c,next is the one i want to id, then a 78. I scanned them all so a reference could be established on these similiar 24 centers.
HERE
Thanks in advance.

March 08, 2004 00.39 Knud-Erik Andersen <kunstsmed@image.dk>

Brian McInturff _ i have tried to send you a mail but your email adress seems to be invalid (I guess I have a old one :O)! Will you please send me your new email adress?
 

March 08, 2004 David Benson

David P, of course your right, machine PO applied mark not handstamp,

David B.
 

March 08, 2004 David P

Lavar's cover
It is neither a handstamp nor a private meter, it is a machine paid mark from a Hey-Dolphin machine. Until all GB marks were standardised in about 1933, the Hey Dolphin machines had conventional dies (originally single ring, later double ring) for cancelling adhesives in black, but used the characteristic rectangular dies for red bulk paid work. The amount paid slug was changeable, and they can be found on all classes of mail. Some offices also had an Official Paid die and this usually showed a time of posting.
I have seen ephemera from Trafalgar Auctions before, but know nothing about them, I think they disappeared sometime around WW2 but I may be wrong on that.

March 07, 2004 Roger Heath

Exhibitions
I agree with David.
I flew from Hawaii to see Pac97 and it was to see the exhibits, not the bourse. I consider it a chance of a lifetime to have seen all the international exhibits. When I lived in SF I always went to Westpex for both reasons. The exibits were at a different level than Pac97, but that didn't matter. It encouraged me to collect with a goal as opposed to filling spaces. Seeing the exhibits turned me around from filling albums to finding an interesting area with little financial output. I'd reached the point in both my GB and Swiss stamp collections where $3,000 would have filled the holes in each album, and the stamps aren't rare, just expensive. I've seen more Basel Doves in the last week than I've seen Basel razor cancels in 4 years (oops let the cat out of the bag). I personally think people should spend much more time looking a the exhibits. The range of information is truely enormous and would only help any collector. Cheap too!!

Roger

March 07, 2004 David Benson

Lavar, it is not a Meter, it is a Bulk Postage handstamp applied at the PO presumably at cheaper Printed Matter rates,

David B.

March 07, 2004 David Benson

Chris, that is why everyone is different, I don't go to a show to see the bourse, I go to see the material on display, especially the high end and interesting exhibits.

David B.

March 07, 2004 Lavar Taylor

Postal History
Good evening/day to all. Today's featured item of postal history focuses on Great Britain. This cover is rather nondescript on the front side. It was mailed to Detroit, Michigan from London. There is a boxed red meter marking at the upper right which reads "London WC Paid 1/2D Dec 9 1932". I know virtually nothing about meter markings from the UK. Anyone who can provide information on this meter, please do so. The fun part of this cover is the reverse . It shows a map of the vicinity of Trafalgar Square in London, revealing the return address of the sender, Trafalgar Stamp Auctions. Anyone out there ever heard of this particular auction house?

March 07, 2004 David Benson

Chris, the FIP aren't going to go away, they are here for ever and ever. The US isn't going to resign. If you reread KL's comments of a few days ago he stated that he proposed that the APS should try to offload the US acreditation to another body but could not find a seconder. There many be only a few who benefit, such as international exhibitors, Judges (and spouses), major dealers but without membership US exhibitors would not be able to exhibit internationally. It may be true that most attendees don't even see the exhibits, attend cocktail parties, evening banquets, awards ceremonies but there are some who revel in it.
Outside of the US there is not much FIP bashing in Philatelic magazines now or in conversations between Philatelists as we have accepted the right of the FIP to be the organisation that controls International Exhibitions and Exhibiting.
Of course Exhibitions can still be succesfull without the FIP and less costly but the awards are not recognised to the same extent that the FIP awards are.
Like I said to KL before, it is not much use discussing the issue here as some peoples ideas about the FIP have been clouded by misinformation. The FIP does a fantastic job amid huge and seemingly unsurmountable problems.

David B.


 

March 07, 2004 Chris

Mohel jokes
D2 The Mohel that always cut on the bias.
And now my leg is wet.

Chris - grew up in a heavily Jewish neighborhood in LA.

March 07, 2004 Chris

Is The FIP Important?
Ken L I went back and re-read your post to Nomad about
why the high end exhibits were important to stamp collecting.
I thought about it and I don't buy it.

I don't go to shows to see the exhibits, I go for the bourse.
I will happily go to a bourse without an exhibit, but not vice-versa.
At the local shows I volunteer at, I don't even look at the exhibits,
even as I am helping pack the frames away during tear down.

I have never heard anyone tell me that they are in this hobby
for the exhibits that they see. Mostly they tell me about what they
bought.

You say that the exalted items bring prestige beyond other
collectibles. Conceivable, but that prestige does not translate
into visitors. At the largest local show (ROMPEX) we always get
one of the smaller spaces at the convention center. (And this is not
the big convention center downtown, this is the little one out by
the airport.) The big spaces have been taken by an acoustic Guitar convention
and by an MLM selling stinky lipids. (Excuse me, essential oils.)
You could take something the size of ROMPEX out of the local stock show and no one would
notice anything was gone. Heck, the local Star Trek convection is
much bigger than the ROMPEX.

Suppose the FIP and international exhibits and judging went away
tomorrow. What would this mean for me? Well, it would lessen my
chance of being able to buy D2 lunch someday but other than that,
nada. I would still go to the local stamp shops and buy stamps.
I would still go to the local shows and bourses and buy stamps.
I wouls still browse eBay and buy stamps.

I think if you gave American collectors a multiple choice quiz,
the most commonly picked answer to "What is the FIP" would be C,
which is "Part of the mars rover Spirit". If most collectors are
not paying attention to it, how important can it be?

Chris - not exhibiting this lifetime

March 07, 2004 David Benson

Chris, no but I heard the one about the man asked who was your Mohel,

David B.

March 07, 2004 Anne

Good night to all and to all sweet dreams of continuing chat boards, circumcised stamps, and wallets.

March 07, 2004 Roger Heath

Possible certs
Anne -
I couldn't agree more with you. I've certainly learned the difference between forgeries, fakes, msrespresented and butchered stamps. It has made me a better collector and I have much more confidence when I look at stamps and covers on Ebay. It's not that I'm skeptical all the time, but certain items ow stand out more, whereas in the past, I accepted what was written. Naive, but true. No I'm a blatant rogue.
I hope David (behind the scenes here) reconsiders the life of this Board. When we start asking questions of how a Board needs to be set up, this is it. Both this and Richard's Boards are so easy to load, follow and post to that anything else sems to complicated. I honestly don't care if a board is archived, or broken into threads. I understand why people would like access to threads (they missed it the first time around?), but I rarely go back to a previous page unless there is an extremely busy day and the posts are back there. All in allthis Board does exactly what I enjoy with online chatting and learning. Rarely are topics discussed that directly affect my collection, but when they do it is very pleasant to converse on a level playing field. I'm don't see myself as "the answer guy", I do enough of that at school, but I certainly enjoy discussing topics that apparently have no answers. LOL. If I were incharge the problems would be solved and a chat board would develop to discuss Heath's Philosophy of Collecting. I'd tell everyone what they should collect, and what is worthless, no qualms, so it's interesting to read opinions daily. We all eat food, have our favorites, but they also get boring after a while, so intersting changes are welcome. That's why this Board is such a success. Never Boring. I hope David puts a bumper sticker on his car that's says. "My Chat Board is Never Boring".

Roger

March 07, 2004 Chris

Circumcised Stamps
D2 Remember the joke about the Mohel and the leather worker
where the punchline is "rub it! It turns into a suitcase!".

Chris - did you hear the one about the prostitute and the leper?

March 07, 2004 Chris

Philatelic Disposition
Ferd W. I'm glad your Plan is working. Very few of the
collectors that I know have children who collect. My daughter
was collecting for a bit, but has lost interest. I will save
her album, she may be interested in it in 30 years.

Your granddaughter may indeed be able to purchase my collection
for a song. A collection from someone at a local assisted living
facility was brought to the club for valuation and advice. One of the
members slogged through doing a complete inventory and associated
catalog value. (This took months.) The cash offers from local
dealers were so far under the CV, that the collection was donated
to some charity for the tax write off. (I think the same effect could
have been had by a 5 minute perusal of the collection, but what do
I know.)

Prediction: Top value rarities will continue to go up, but midlevel
and below will fall relative to the dollar.

Chris - not investing in stamps for my retirement

March 07, 2004 David Benson

Anne, but it is at least a genuine stamp, albeit possibly circumsised,

David B.

March 07, 2004 Anne

BTW, of all the wishful "could this really be" questions I've posted over the years, this is the first that's really stood a chance of being good. The fact that I knew enough to go through all the hoops of checking paper, watermark, color, and references before I posted, is a testament to how much I've gained from the old ebay board and now this one. The constant talk of forgeries and frauds is a drag sometimes, but it's a great education in philately.

March 07, 2004 18:42 Jim Watson

March 07, 2004 David Benson

Brian, not much premium unless to unusual destinations, unusual rates or smaller PO cancels.

David B.

March 07, 2004 Chris

Google
J W-S Google in back in the Bay Area and I
left CA 18 years ago and do not want to move back.
(Besides the crowds, firearms laws are Draconian.)

Buying a company at IPO is not usually profitable for a while.
(Normals can't get the stock at the real IPO price.) Better to wait
for the it to slide some then buy.

Chris - investment adviser to the broke

March 07, 2004 Alan Payne <alan_payne at bigponf dot com>

Germany/Austria
Brian

Don't know about the value, my main interest is the first republic.

March 07, 2004 Chris

eBay Stock Redux
Brian R. You got me to thinking, so I went an looked at
eBay. It looks like it went public in late '98 at $5 a share.
There were three splits with a total multiplyer of 12. So a
$500 investment in 1998 is now worth $83,172 at Friday's close.

A good return, but not enough to start a large country.

Chris - wants to be Emperor Of The Moon

March 07, 2004 Jim Whitford-Stark

chris, you should have worked for google.
I think they are going public very soon.
Might be a worthwhile investment if you don't work for them.

March 07, 2004 David Benson

Chris, like I said, it was over long period, inflation, change of type of government and the idea that a single stamp should be available for every conceivable rate caused so many to be issued.

David B.

March 07, 2004 Chris

Ebay Stock
Brian R. A friend of a friend was the Chief Engineer at
eBay early on. He cashed out in 2000 and did very well.

Chris - all the dot coms I've worked at have tanked

March 07, 2004 Chris

Austrian Postage Dues
D2 There seem to be many more different designs in
Austria than in the US. This may just be perception on my part
because I am staring at such a pile of them.

A & S If anybody wants them, I will be happy to send them
to a good home. Leave a message here with an email address and I'll
be in touch.

Chris - no J series stamps kept in my inventory

March 07, 2004 Brian R

what I should have done....
.....is buy about 100 shares of Ebay when it was an IPO. I'd have stamps with my picture on them (greater Brianoland) by now. :o(

March 07, 2004 Chris

Stamp Values Versus Constant Dollars
Brian R. The prices of stuff have quadrulpled in 25 years.
That is a 12.5 year doubling period, which is a 5.76% rate of
compounded return. This is probably worse than the stock exchange
over that same period. I doubt that inflation averaged less than
3% over that time span (which included that strange period in the
early '80s when inflation was running about 14%) so the philatelic
items were ahead of inflation, but only just.

You'd probably have been ahead to have taken the cost of the items,
invested it in the stock market then, selling the stocks now and
buying the items.

I was drooling over prices in a 1941 edition of Scott's until
I figured out what other stuff cost and realized that they weren't
all that cheap.

Chris - still got another 30 years or so I can wait. Bet there is
one more big runup in stamps in that period.

March 07, 2004 David Benson

Anne, most probably a clipped single but imperfs. do exist but in Gibbons are catalogued as pairs only. Worth sending but most probably going to come back as unable to certify as genuine imperf.

David B.

March 07, 2004 Anne

Back to album page design.

March 07, 2004 Brian McInturff

Pro That's one faded stamp!!

March 07, 2004 prometheus

Some one moved the decimal point of the solution
Too-Clean-pre-cancell

March 07, 2004 Brian McInturff

Nomad I've got a lot of war era and just after war Czech covers.
Alan P Since the time frame was so short for the combinations to be valid can I assume those probably have a premium?

March 07, 2004 Alan Payne <alan_payne at bigpond dot com>

Germany/Austria usage
Brian

The Austra/Germany one I believe dates from just after the Anchluss.
Austrian Stamps were valid fron the 4th of April 1938 until the 31st of October 1938. Covers often have joint franking during the period.

Alan

March 07, 2004 nomad55

Brian M...
Latvia - can't help
Germany/Czech - the cover used twice. July 12 and Dec 8 1935
Czech with dues - I may know somebody who's interested in this.
Germany/Austria - following anschluss, there was a period of overlap when Austrian stamps remained valid.
 

March 07, 2004 Brian McInturff

Paul: GOOD JOB!!!

March 07, 2004 Brian McInturff

How about some stamp conversation for a change. I need some help with some of the non US items I have. Could someone give me assistance with these. pic-1
pic-2
Are these just run of the mill items or are they worthy of detail for listing on ebay. I've got a lot of these items I need to run but I'm not well versed in the non US. Was it typical to use German and Austria stamps together during this time period(as seen on one of these pictured)? Should I scan the backs also since they have the recieving marks plus some annotations?
 

March 07, 2004 Brian R

Chris
I'm still LOL over you post.
I've personally spent the last quarter century,
waiting for those with the truly nice stuff, to keel over.
I'm still waiting like a patient vulture.
During my wait, I've watched the prices of what I quest, quadruple.
I suppose that is my punishment for thinking like that.

March 07, 2004 Jim Whitford-Stark

Oops, missed out on several bids today.
Too busy loading auctions to try to pay for them.

Thanks Chris & Ken, the relationships are now obvious.
Stamp was on a paid reply envelope to Time Magazine.

March 07, 2004 David Benson

Ken, one more minor BUT extremely important point. The major reason for the problem was not caused by the FIP but by most Post Offices worldwide valuing the stock sold philatelically, whether at Exhibitions or otherwise at face value and not printing plus ancillary costs like it used to be. Many years ago the PO was happy to print and sell and when doing the accounting showed huge profits, now they are valued at face then of course the profit doesn't exist. This was caused by the possible usage of Philatelic sales in the normal usage of postage which of course in turn cuts down the current sales although it may be miniscule. There was also the fact that large quantities of sheet purchases were returned for credit. You can blame who you like on that but it has to be the collector (or investor) who woke up that it was useless to continue buying large quantities of new issues.


David B.

March 07, 2004 00:13 CET Paul B <philaweb at (remove) yahoo dot dk>

BTW... There are 16 different ID's registered at the new board. Just want to emphazise once again, that the new board's only a test board. It's appearance can be altered or the board may not prevail the final laps before deadline (whenever that might be).

March 07, 2004 David Benson

Ken, I don't want to get involved with long discussions about the FIP but most of your points are correct although a little biased in a few places.

Australia introduced a new regulation a few years ago that remedied part of the problem about Judges and it is now mandatory that a Judge enters even a National Exhibition at least once every 3 years or booted from the list of Judges, which just reminded me that my 3 years is almost up. Because of new classes there has to be judges who can judge them competently instead of just allocating someone who has finished his/her workload. I know that there are many US judges who are screaming blue murder about not being allocated a position which is the same as here with the same few over & over but no use complaining as they have the same stock answers. There have even been cases where an overseas Exhibition have requested a particular Judge be invited which has been ignored.

I don't think anyone can blame the FIP for the poor philatelic sales that has occured the past few years and that would be the main reason why major Exhibitions are a problem financially. Your figures regarding Judges costs would only be about 5-10% of the budget and Commissioners costs have to be paid as an Exhibition cannot exist without exhibits and Commissioners do a tremendous amount of work before, during & after Exhibitions.

You are 100% right that most people (especially in the US) have no idea what the FIP does and what it controls and doesn't. I have a hard time getting through to some that it doesn't control collecting.

You & I know that the reason why the FIP heirarchy is invited is that they get free room & board to attend committee meetings which would have to be paid by themselves or by their Associations. I agree this is wrong as a couple of them (no names mentioned) were not judges but acted on an advisory panel of the Jury and I know they did absolutely FA.

As you can see I am also not 100% happy with some things they do but it has to be accepted that if a country wants to host an FIP accreditied Exhibition it has to accept certain things that are not perfect the same as a country hosting an Olympic Games as major Philatelic Exhibitions are equivalent including some of the negatives attributed to them but not to the same excess.

The other day you mentioned that you proposed that the APS pass the baton to another organisation but could not get a seconder. Did that other organisation want it. If the answer is yes, then try again.

Enough with FIP bashing, how about some EBAY bashing, when is Dan Neary going to be on line somewhere, some extremely important questions can be asked,

David B.
 

March 07, 2004 Ken Lawrence

The FIP crisis

The FIP is in crisis because its entire system is based upon a relative frequency of world philatelic exhibitions under FIP patronage that no longer exists. Without that frequency, the entire edifice unravels. The crisis is most acute in Europe and North America, but gradually is taking hold worldwide. The fewer crumbs there are to feed the women and men seated at the table, the more ferocious becomes the scrapping for those that remain.

As some have observed here, most collectors know nothing at all about FIP, and if they have heard of it, really are not concerned. My reply to Nomad explained why and how the FIP affects the entire hobby and everyone in it, no matter how much or how little of it they care about. Much as long-term interest rates affect every person’s standard of living while few people are aware of them or care about them, so the FIP’s wellbeing makes a difference whether or not any of us gives it a passing thought.

The immediate past FIP president, Knud Mohr of Denmark, was quite concerned about the bleak future, and initiated several gimmicks designed to forestall it. He paid a personal visit to APS headquarters not long after he took office to discuss all the problems candidly. Much of what I’ve written is based on those discussions.

(Knud stated frankly that the majority of FIP delegates don’t understand the problems, or brush them off as negligible, which makes many of them even more difficult to tackle. At the time I thought he was just using that excuse as a diplomatic way of minimizing our concerns, but after reading David Benson’s replies here, I have a greater appreciation for his problem.)

Take the relatively simple issue of FIP-qualified judges. For most countries with relatively few exhibitors and aspiring judges, this is no problem at all, so their delegates pay no attention to complaints. But for countries with larger numbers of exhibitors who aspire to be judges, the system is completely broken. (Why do they wish to be judges? Because judges get free, all-expenses-paid travel, accommodations, meals, and “walking around money” to attend stamp exhibitions in distant foreign lands.)

The FIP reserves for itself the right to name 25 percent of every international jury. These assignments are always given to favored insiders, and tend to be the same select few each time. Both D.N. Jatia and Knud Mohr called this practice the FIP’s greatest embarrassment, and implored their colleagues to find a fairer system, but nothing ever changed. The host committee selects the rest of the jurors, under a formula published in the General Regulations for Exhibitions (GREX).

Member federations submit “short lists” of up to three qualified nominees to the committees, from which lists the committees select the jury. Although the rules specify that 20 percent of each jury must consist of newly qualified jurors, they are the least desirable from the perspective of the host, because they are initially qualified in only one class, while the committees seek to economize by getting double duty from each juror, so they choose those who are qualified to judge at least two classes. They try to fill the 20 percent quota with jurors from their own or nearby countries to keep down costs. Because of this latter rule, the majority of qualified U.S. judges, though repeatedly nominated, never get selected.

This engenders deep and abiding bitterness from the world’s most prominent stamp collectors. The FIP tries occasionally to douse this fire by intervening on behalf of the best-connected or most vocal complainers, but the problem is so great and so intractable among U.S. judges that favoring a handful would merely provoke greater bitterness among the ones excluded.

Here are the latest published statistics. They are a bit dated (2000), but the overall numbers and proportions don’t change much from year to year. Collectively, Europe has the most judges, 221. The Americas have 99; Asia and the Pacific have 84; Africa has 6. Of a worldwide total 410 FIP-qualified judges, the U.S. has 40. Germany and Australia are tied for second with 18 each; then UK and Canada, 16; Italy, 15; Belgium and France, 14; Argentina, 13; Norway and Switzerland, 12; Brazil, Czech Republic, and Spain, 11; India and New Zealand, 10; rest of the world’s countries in single digits.
As long as there were frequent FIP exhibitions in Europe, federations there were able to help each other by qualifying apprentices and moving them up through the cross-qualifying procedure that assure each one qualifies in two or more classes, the practical prerequisites to being selected for juries in other countries. Now that the frequency of European exhibitions has dropped off sharply, those opportunities have largely disappeared.

For North Americans the qualifying dance was more complicated. We used to operate on a decennial cycle that would bring exhibitions that attracted most of our exhibitors and judges in a three-year sequence – United States, Canada, Israel – followed by a seven-year lull. Now Canada has dropped out and several of our senior Jewish exhibitors and judges have died or retired, putting an impossible burden on our single exhibition, with virtually no other realistic chances for being apprenticed or selected for a jury.

So if, say, you got qualified as a judge by apprenticing on the jury at Pacific 97, the odds are you had no opportunity after that to judge again in subsequent years, and until you have judged a second time, you can’t apply to cross-accredit in a second class, but without that additional qualification, no committee will select you.

In 1997, leaders of the FIP thought they had a simple solution to the problem. To qualify as an apprentice juror, one must first win a vermeil medal in FIP competition. They decided that the easiest way to silence the complaints was to prevent most qualified exhibitors from becoming apprentices. Accordingly, the FIP congress voted to limit the age of apprentices to 55 years. The APS immediately notified the FIP that it would withdraw from membership in FIP because our bylaws forbid all forms of discrimination on account of race, creed, gender, or age. So the FIP scrambled to suspend the rule, and then to repeal it, leaving the underlying problem unsolved.

Those squabbles are purely internal to FIP, and delegates who are not personally affected by these problems display no sympathy toward the collectors who are affected. But in reality they should have regarded these as omens, because now the crisis has spread beyond the juries to embrace the exhibitors themselves. As the number of exhibitions continues to decline, so do the number of opportunities for each qualified exhibitor to compete.

Even after achieving a national level vermeil medal, an exhibitor must apply and be accepted by an exhibition committee. The first time out, the exhibit qualifies for just five frames. To get more, it must win at least an FIP vermeil medal, which then qualifies it for eight frames at future FIP exhibitions. When exhibitions were frequent, an exhibitor could qualify an exhibit from national to eight-frame international in the course of a single year, and thus a wealthy entrant with the best material could qualify to compete for a national Grand Prix in the year prior to participating in his own country’s decennial exhibition. That has become virtually impossible as exhibitions have become so infrequent (and uncertain, as occurred with the upcoming INDEPEX postponement).

These are precisely the consequences that Canada’s Kenneth Rowe predicted in 1995 would come to pass if the FIP failed to mend its ways, leaving nothing for the future of FIP internationals except in the dwindling handful of countries whose postal administrations continue to foot the bills. But the FIP leadership did fail to enact reforms. Meanwhile, FIP’s difficulties spiraled further downward because the reduced number of exhibitions drastically slashed patronage income, and the dwindling number of exhibits reduced dues income.

Finally the FIP moved its headquarters out of the high rent district as an economy measure, and then began the search elsewhere for windfall riches. Knud Mohr believed that his Nation’s Cup and World Cup prizes would invest international philately with prestige comparable to championship sports competitions, and would present opportunities for the FIP to reap royalties for the license of its logo. That was a pipe dream.

Only one source of quick money on the required scale remained, support from Europe’s largest stamp trade trusts. But they are not charities, and they get full value for every euro. Thus every whim of the Afinsa and Hermann Sieger chiefs becomes FIP policy, without even a discussion and vote by an FIP congress. FIP's defenders obediently parrot the party line.

Rather than solving its problems before they reached crisis proportions, the FIP refused to acknowledge them, so an outmoded system that doesn't work is all that remains. Canada openly dropped out of the exhibition cycle rather than suffer the humiliation of bankruptcy. Here we have soldiered on with Washington 2006, but unless FIP mends its ways, I doubt we’ll have another FIP international here, even though we have more qualified international exhibitors and judges than any other country. The money to support the FIP burden simply does not exist, and the FIP has refused to lighten it.

In 1996, Washington 2006 projected $700,000 of support from the United States Postal Service. That is no longer a line item in the budget; USPS will have a stand just like any private stamp dealer, charged the going rate for linear feet on the exhibition floor. In addition to the expected USPS subsidy, the original budget projected $2,437,500 income from dealer booth rentals. The revised budget anticipates just $1,462,460 in booth rentals (including the USPS amount in that total). At present only $1,145,000 is assured, which is not sufficient to break even.

But the FIP-mandated costs cannot be cut. Besides the $60,000 patronage fee paid directly to FIP, the jury will cost $265,450 and the commissioners, $180,000. These are the figures presented to the APS Board of Directors at Norfolk. Multiply them by the number of national stamp collector societies around the globe that wish to host international philatelic exhibitions without benefit of a postal administration’s subsidy; your total will equal the value of the crisis that FIP has wrought by failing to address it.
 

March 07, 2004 23:34 CET Paul B. <philaweb at (remove) yahoo dot dk> http://www.lettonica.info/StampChat
 

Dave F Don't worry about my work being for naught. The only way to learn is to be challenged. Some of the stuff I've done with the prototype board is completely new to me (that's why the new board is a bit flaky because I tend to fiddle with the files - I've been trying to implement a poll box, not exactly to my satisfaction).
Well, now all the posts on the new board are in descending order, which means I have to sweep the boards because the logistics got screwed up (all to do with codes, you can't see it).

March 07, 2004 14.17 Knud-Erik Andersen

March 07, 2004 Ken Lawrence

Jim W-S

Chris is almost right. It's a horizontal coil stamp with perforations slightly misregistered to the right, clipped from the roll by a high-speed mailing machine, probably a Multipost, which sealed vthe envelope and affixed the stamp at the same time. The affixer was registered to the stamp's design, placing the left and right cuts where perforations ought to be if they had been properly registered.

March 07, 2004 14:07 Dave F. (moderator)

I need to add that another small team had also been working on a prototype. I don't know how to handle this, because I don't want anyone's hard work to be for naught. It was not quite ready to be shown to the public, which is why it had not been mentioned here yet.

These are some of the complications that I'm not really able to deal with very well at the moment.

I also find that I'm particularly sensitive to criticism at the moment. I'm sorry that this board had so many shortcomings, but it was done quickly by someone without enough programming experience to do anything better. It should have been replaced long ago.

(And I'm not saying any of this to elicit sympathy or a pat on the back. Just weary, I suppose.)

March 07, 2004 14:00 Dave F. (moderator)

Paul B: Thanks for all your hard work on an alternate site. I think it's great to solicit input from people to see what seems to work and what doesn't.

I'm afraid my heart is not in this at the moment, but hopefully my attitude will improve sometime soon and that I can be of help in the near future.

And by saying that I do not mean to discourage everyone else's involvement. I think I'm just at the saturation level, and for that I apologize.

March 07, 2004 David Benson

Chris, you can say the same thing about other countries, why did the US have so many Postage Dues. Most probably because the Post Office wanted to make it easy to add a single stamp instead of using make up values which may have plastered the envelope. They were issued over a long period of time and Postal rates, inflation, type of government etc. virtually demanded new designs. The production costs would have been low as they used common designs.

David B.